SO not as accepting as previously believed...

[Leona]

So here's a fun situation (and I mean fun in the "chaotic" meaning).

My wife told me tonight that she feels extremes of feelings. Sometimes she really wants to see me dressed and for me to be a woman, and sometimes she'll buy stuff for me, bring it home and give it to me, and she doesn't ever want to see it.

It's kind of bipolar.

Now, I'm definitely gender fluid. I definitely oscillate between the two. There have been times recently where I was a man and she wanted me to be a woman, and when I was a woman and she wanted me to be a man. Not quite a match in cycles. So that's worth considering.

But here's the real issue: She wants to talk to other GGs of CD SOs. She wants to know she's not being a psycho. I told her that from what I've seen, this is common, there are plenty of other women who feel as you do. For further information, please consult them, because I don't have it. That sort of thing.

But it's true. We've seen it plenty of times here (you might have to dig in the archives for it). Plenty of women will be supportive of their husbands being women one day, and the next day, well, sorry, I wanted a beard and you just didn't have time to grow one.

So, anyway, she came looking for this place and ended up at one of the other crossdresser forums available. When we resolved that discrepancy so she could come here, she registered with a yahoo email address (which is apparently banned under the ymail.com ban currently in force to prevent spam).

So as a result, she has an "active" account, but she can't post.

I question that, but that's probably my schizo paranoia kicking in.

I want her to talk to other GGs. I want her to talk to Greenie and ReineD in particular, since they're quite active and quite vocally GGs. I would like my wife's name here to be as respected as the two of them, to be honest. More importantly, I want her to see the FAB forum. I have no illusions about it, I assume the worst and expect the truth isn't so bad.

At the same time, were she to dig, and I can guarantee she will (there just happens to be a lot to dig through), she'll find stuff that's not exactly flattering to her, and she'll have an issue with it. To that, I can only say "If you wanted this to flatter you, you should have behaved in a way that it flattered you".

I did suggest she go with another place, since it was apparently so difficult to come here, but she was accepted somewhere else.

She didn't, there's no follow-through. That's never there. If it happens "now", it happens, otherwise it doesn't happen.

This is a reflection of her acceptance. "Right now" she accepts it, but I don't know if she will in two hours. I know she doesn't like it if she falls asleep first and then I get dressed up and lay next to her.

And she doesn't know that I know that she's not accepting then.

There's not a specific question here, there's a lot of things to respond to, and I'm interested in all responses. But when you respond, this is something to consider:

When I started posting here, I posted a story about me getting arrested while dressed. One of the results of that is that she lost some feedback into when/how I dressed. In practice, she lost all feedback, and she is currently incapable of asking me NOT to dress. I don't find that unreasonable, because I view the arrest as her using the CDing as a way to control me, and she doesn't view it that way. In any case, the end result is that I wear whatever the hell I want to and I ask her input to make it look good. If she has nothing to offer, then I move on.

It's a tad inconsiderate, but at a certain point, I feel like I have a right to be accepted as I am, and if she doesn't, I'd rather be single.

So, responses, please. I've gotten a lot of "your wife is awesome", but it's not so cut and dried.

[Amanda M]

Frankly this is more about your views - which, it appears, must prevail - rather than hers. If SHE wants to come on here, and the email address is a problem, get a new email address from GMX or somewhere and that will sort it.

[Leona]

Ahhh, I meant to highlight the lack of follow-through while still pointing out that when/if she follows through, she'll SEE THIS THREAD.

It's not so much that my views must prevail, it's that there's no views in this relationship if I don't provide a view. She's got few/none to offer.

It should be a paradise. I can have whatever I want! But I want a woman with her own distinct identity and personality, and that's what I thought I was getting. I didn't want a chameleon.

[TheMissus]

What can I say - I'm probably a lot like your wife only I don't tend to swing back and forth so much as plant down my feet and insist I don't like it, lol.

Still, I think she's definitely behaving normally for what can be a very abnormal situation. Though, I do recall she knew all this at the beginning? Not that this stops the swinging back and forth, to be honest. We girls are good at changing how we feel about things depending on the wind! Maybe she's just coming to the realisation that perhaps you're further along the spectrum than either of you realized and she's not comfortable with it?

Have you done your own soul-searching? Do you know where this is going?

If you answered 'no' I think this is definitely an issue as women do prefer stability in relationships, even those more accepting of alternative lifestyles as I know your wife to be (you do talk very proudly of her here so I think she'll be pleasantly surprised) So she may feel on shaky ground if you're 'rocking the boat' so to speak with your personal discovery?

But what do I know - I'm a GG who makes her H leave the house before he even CONSIDER dressing. My advise here is akin to dust...I should be asking YOU for help

[Leona]

Don't discount yourself, you've raised some interesting questions for me.

Still, I think she's definitely behaving normally for what can be a very abnormal situation. Though, I do recall she knew all this at the beginning? Not that this stops the swinging back and forth, to be honest. We girls are good at changing how we feel about things depending on the wind! Maybe she's just coming to the realisation that perhaps you're further along the spectrum than either of you realized and she's not comfortable with it?

I probably am further along than she's comfortable with. But there is also that watershed moment where she didn't care that she was getting me arrested while I was dressed up, which led directly to me not caring if I dressed up and she didn't like it. I don't see a lot of people here with that kind of history with their SOs. I feel like I'm breaking new ground. Granted, it's probably new ground that leads to divorce, but when I get militant in a thread about how SOs need to accept their husbands/wives, there's a reason. If it came down to it, would you send him to jail while he's dressed up? Or would you lie and protect him? Which is the more appropriate expression of love? Let's assume he's not abusive, because if he were, send that jackass to jail....

Have you done your own soul-searching? Do you know where this is going?

Yes, and we've talked about it. FFS may be in my future. Likewise, breast augmentation may also. But before either of these, we both have ****ed up teeth, and she wants a kid and I've had a vasectomy. So, priorities.

If you answered 'no' I think this is definitely an issue as women do prefer stability in relationships, even those more accepting of alternative lifestyles as I know your wife to be (you do talk very proudly of her here so I think she'll be pleasantly surprised) So she may feel on shaky ground if you're 'rocking the boat' so to speak with your personal discovery?

I'm really glad you brought this up. I feel like I've offered her a level of stability in a relationship that she's never seen, even with the CDing thrown in from left field. I feel like this stability is so strong that she's taking me for granted, and in other non-CDing related issues, she's just expecting me to pick up the slack. I pointed out to her tonight that in most relationships, when it comes to emotional stability, women usually pick up the slack for men for a year or so, and then the relationships end. I feel like that's what I've been doing our entire relationship, and in the last 4 weeks, I stopped, and our relationship has atrophied to a point where it's hard to say we even have a relationship.

She had no answer to that. Well, she had answers, but they were jabs, like she was trying to win an argument.

For me, right now, finding a woman who's accepting of me being a crossdresser is far less important than finding a woman who will have an actual relationship with me.

And I write this knowing she may see it. But like everything else we've talked about in the last 6 months or so, it's nothing new to her. I wonder what it'll take to get it through her thick skull.

[Beverley Sims]

Get your wife to open a gmail account that works for me.
No other ties are needed.

[Leona]

Ack! She has one! She has one directed at my domain, which is managed by gmail!

She initially tried using the leona.road account for transparency reasons. I respect that, I really do. I also see how it's flawed in concept because it means she can see my private messages here and other things.

She has other accounts to work with. And she was accepted on another forum where she could talk freely and I wouldn't see any of it.

No follow-through. She hung her head about it when I called her out on it tonight. It looks impulsive, because there was no follow-through.

Maybe she'll see this and respond. I doubt it, though. That requires her to follow through....

[kittypw GG]

Wow.......so much going on here. I wonder why or how she could have had you arrested when you were dressed if there was not cause to do so? If you were being a menace I would care not how you were dressed but about my safety. You make it sound like she did it on purpose to shame you or something? Police don't just arrest someone without cause. Apparently there is a lot of drama in your relationship. Not good. The fact that you mentioned that she wants children and you have had a vasectomy. Also not good because your desires don't match but good in that children do not need to be a part of such an unstable relationship. So............ my thoughts are all over the place but let me try....... You feel like you are carrying the relationship and have stopped so it's falling apart because of that? You don't care what she says or feels about your dressing or the fact that you will want breast augmentation and perhaps transition in the future. This quote stuck out for me : "For me, right now, finding a woman who's accepting of me being a crossdresser is far less important than finding a woman who will have an actual relationship with me."

Sounds like you are really not into this relationship and may be just another one of those self-absorbed self-obsessed cross dressers. What is an "actual relationship" to you anyway? Perhaps you should start there. It sounds like you both have serious communication problems which need to be addressed immediately. I would say try counseling but I don't have a lot of hope for your relationship based on your comments.

As far as her participation being on and off with the cross dressing....yes that is very common. Sometimes us partners feel that we want to please you and know that would be the ultimate way to do so then we discover that it may be the ONLY way to please you. That is when the cross dressing becomes weary. For me my participation was expected and not really appreciated. I wanted to make him happy but felt that it was a lot to ask of me ..........It felt like I was someone I was not. I'm not into women ever and cross dressers expect their so's to turn their sexuality on it's head so to speak. What you think should not be a big deal really is. His level of participation in the things that I enjoyed did not even come close to matching the effort I made towards his cross dressing so..........I stopped caring about it. That is what is going to happen to you I'm afraid.

I'm thinking if you don't seek couple's counseling .........your relationship is doomed.

[kimdl93]

There's so much there...I hardly know where to begin. Lets distill it to this point. Your wife is entitled to her feelings and feeling are fluid. I would guess that she feels frustrated by the fluctuations and wishes she could be more absolute in her support. Try to keep that in mind.

[MsRenee]

Only thing I can say is seek counseling or your relationship will suffer dramatically.
Way too many issues for me to say anything about or advise you on.
Good luck hun.
Renee

[Jana]

It's a bit surprising that you claim to be gender fluid, and yet seem to have trouble accepting your wife's fluidity. Feelings are fluid by nature, hers, yours, everyone else's. It seems to me yours issues are more about unfulfilled expectations and lack of communication between the two of you than anything else.

[melissakozak]

Navigating the trans waters without a guidance counselor is extremely difficult. My spouse knew about me at age 19, knew it wasn't going away, and married me anyway...BUT, we have been through counseling recently to assist us in making this work in our marriage...wives have numerous, very real fears...who will know? when? how often? where? is transition possible? etc., etc....the list goes on and on and on....hard to tackle these issues alone, so find a great couples counselor....

[Jenniferathome]

...It's a tad inconsiderate, but at a certain point, I feel like I have a right to be accepted as I am, and if she doesn't, I'd rather be single.

Wow, you seem way too ready to pitch a marriage. Marriage is not just about you. You two are clearly not communicating about this. It begins and ends there. This site may offer some perspective for her, but it won't communicate for you to her.

[Stephanie47]

Your description of your marriage is akin to a car careening down the road with you as the driver and your wife as the captive passenger. Sooner than later the car is going to hit a tree and that will be the end. Marriages are not suppose to be controlled by one spouse to the detriment of the other. When a person continually advances his or her own agenda, s/he cannot expect those around him or her to totally accept it.

[Brynna M]

There is the supportive person that most loving spouses would want to be and the understandably human person with fears and frustrations that we all are. Same days we have the strength to be who we wish we were and some days we give into our fears. That might be a kinder way to look at your wife.

Your words sound like you are harboring a lot of contempt for your SO. Contempt is both self reinforcing and destructive. There are undoubtedly things that your SO is not doing well but but thinking of her poorly as a person will not solve anything. If your contempt is truly deserved then you need to move on.

It sounds like CDing is a small part of your relationship problems.

[Greenie]

Leona its not so cut and dry. I wish she would come talk to me. Thank you for mentioning me in particular.

We are odd creatures. I feel SOOOOO guilty when people post on something I or luca posts and comments and says "luca is so lucky to have you" Or "you are so amazing" Because I go through my crazy girl hormone moments too! I just think, well they HAVE to know that I flip out and go crazy on luca for silly things. I guess the part that makes me so "awesome" is that I am very self aware of when I am being crazy.

As far as her joining here. She needs to be ready. When she is ready she will take the step. I understand the frustration at the lack of follow through. You want her to be accepting of you, in your mind, when she comes here and is involved in your world, she is showing her support. This forum is a part of your support and her being here would be the next step (logically). The thing is, she needs to be ready to support herself in this journey before supporting you. However it sounds like she has taken the steps she just is not "moving as fast" as young would like. Give her some time to talk to us. Tell her to PM me when she gets 10 posts.



Uh... I feel like there is a lot of stuff I didn't hit. But instead of ripping apart your entire relationship based off of one emotionally written post which apparently has been the point of most respondents, relationships are hard. If someone has the handbook to how to do it, please. I would like it.

Many of the other CD forums are way less active, or poorly structured, one giant thread which is annoying. She will eventually come here.

[Mimi]

So as a result, she has an "active" account, but she can't post.

I'm a little confused here--she has an account where she can log in, but she's not allowed to post? You might try asking this question on the Forum Help subforum and see what the admins have to say. It makes sense that she couldn't use your email, as you each have to have completely separate accounts.

[MatildaJ.]

Your words sound like you are harboring a lot of contempt for your SO. Contempt is both self reinforcing and destructive... It sounds like CDing is a small part of your relationship problems.

That's what came through for me too. I don't know if you're just angry right now, Leona, but you've posted many biting comments on this thread, which don't make it sound like you like your wife very much. I can appreciate that, if she had you arrested for no good reason. But either you have to forgive her for that, or you might as well just leave. Marriage doesn't work if either spouse is continually jabbing the other one for some past misdeed.

FFS may be in my future. Likewise, breast augmentation may also. But before either of these, we both have ****ed up teeth, and she wants a kid and I've had a vasectomy. So, priorities.

If you're not getting along and you don't trust and like each other, why would you even consider having children together? I'm confused.

[Jenniferathome]

Yes, and we've talked about it. FFS may be in my future. Likewise, breast augmentation may also. But before either of these, we both have ****ed up teeth, and she wants a kid and I've had a vasectomy. So, priorities.

You are ready to pitch your marriage and "she" wants a kid!?! You two get an F in communication. Your unborn child thanks you for the vasectomy. Children never help a screwed up relationship.

[Leona]

Wow.......so much going on here. I wonder why or how she could have had you arrested when you were dressed if there was not cause to do so?

That's not how police procedure works. An arrest is made when there is enough evidence to convict and probable cause that the suspect is guilty, in most cases. In cases involving fighting couples, an arrest is made if someone is hurt physically, period. I was walking away from the fight and she was trying to detain me, and she got physically violent. I never attacked nor struck her in any way. The report is viewed by two magistrates. The first one reads the report, files charges, and sets a bond. The second informs you of the bond, what your rights are, and how to get out of jail. In my case, the first magistrate elected not to file the charges: he punted to the second magistrate, who let me out.

In America, we are innocent until proven guilty. The law determined I was innocent because I WAS innocent. Please respect that.

The fact that you mentioned that she wants children and you have had a vasectomy.

Had the vasectomy during my first marriage, in case that wasn't clear. I told her about it before our first date, it's important information to know. It's like CDing, you don't intentionally keep it a secret because it could define the relationship. She said she was ok with it even though she wanted another kid, and now she goes through phases where she nags me about it. Maybe I should ask her to stop because of how I feel, but then she doesn't get to express how she feels.

Sounds like you are really not into this relationship and may be just another one of those self-absorbed self-obsessed cross dressers. What is an "actual relationship" to you anyway? Perhaps you should start there. It sounds like you both have serious communication problems which need to be addressed immediately.

Keep in mind you're getting an extremely one-sided and emotional snapshot of a relationship that was really good for the first couple of years and is now going into its fourth year. We've known each other since we were teenagers. It's not so cut and dried.

I'm a person who gets a lot of compliments for communication skills (and a lot of criticism for asking what particular words mean and using logic, heh). I listen actively, I paraphrase back what was said to see if I understand correctly, I ask questions to clarify/explain what's been said, and I listen very non-judgmentally. These are all things I get complimented on from everybody from the cashier in the checkout line to my employers, former girlfriends, good friends, etc. In a relationship, I periodically start the "where's our relationship at" conversation to see if we're on the same page. When she looks upset or feeling any kind of emotion, I ask what's on her mind. I ask her what she's thinking periodically. I initiate ALL of the "let's relate to each other" conversations.

What happened is that about 6 months ago, after making numerous attempts daily to talk to her and being rebuffed, I quit doing a lot of that. So when the arrest happened, and I talked to my friend who is a former DV counselor, current Director of SANE where she lives, and she confirmed that I was the victim and suggested we find services for batterers for her to see, and pointed out how difficult it can be to break free from the stereotype of the man being the attacker and the woman being the victim.

As far as her participation being on and off with the cross dressing....yes that is very common. Sometimes us partners feel that we want to please you and know that would be the ultimate way to do so then we discover that it may be the ONLY way to please you. That is when the cross dressing becomes weary.

Leona its not so cut and dry. I wish she would come talk to me. Thank you for mentioning me in particular.

Something you GGs that have repeatedly insisted on the importance that your CDing SO have is honesty need to consider this: My wife only tells me the good stuff. She never talks to me about the negative feelings she has. I have to insist that she be honest about her feelings and that she talk to me about them. I also have to insist that she should initiate these conversations whenever she needs to. In every single way that it's wrong for a CDer to sneak around and hide the dressing, it's also wrong for the GG to withhold her feelings. It's supposed to be a two way street of communication.

So, if a CDer who hids in the closet is lying, so, too, is my wife when she leaves out the negative feelings, even when I initiate the conversation. I feel like I now have to take back every good thing i've said about her here because I no longer know what's true and what isn't.

And this isn't just about the CDing. This pattern of dishonest behavior is throughout her entire life. When telling stories about stuff she did, she puts the most positive spin on it to the point where she distorts facts, leaves out important pieces, etc. This is not the normal self-serving bias, this is the self-serving bias on steroids!

As for expecting GGs to still be sexually attracted to us, remember that my wife told she was sexually attracted to me when I was dressed, and I now suspect that to be a complete lie with not an ounce of truth in it.

Wow, you seem way too ready to pitch a marriage. Marriage is not just about you. You two are clearly not communicating about this. It begins and ends there. This site may offer some perspective for her, but it won't communicate for you to her.

You have no idea what I've gone through to not lose this marriage. You're absolutely right, marriage is not just about me. But mine is all about her, and that isn't right either.

[kittypw GG]

Something you GGs that have repeatedly insisted on the importance that your CDing SO have is honesty need to consider this: My wife only tells me the good stuff. She never talks to me about the negative feelings she has. I have to insist that she be honest about her feelings and that she talk to me about them. I also have to insist that she should initiate these conversations whenever she needs to. In every single way that it's wrong for a CDer to sneak around and hide the dressing, it's also wrong for the GG to withhold her feelings. It's supposed to be a two way street of communication.

r.

Most cross dressers can't take the truth. Sorry but that is true. First of all the feelings are very complicated. We want to please our cd partners, we have guilt when it disgusts us. I would bet most gg's would be elated if they woke up one day and the cross dressing was gone forever. Whenever I expressed my true feeling towards the cross dressing I would get drama and purging so I just kept it to myself and eventually just said F##k it is not my deal anyway and I only marginally enjoyed it. He made it so difficult to enjoy any aspect of it right down to the not getting out of the car when so much effort was made to go out dressed. It was nerve racking because the cd is essentially in disguise but the gg is not. It is embarrassing sometimes, you wonder what people think of you. It can also be dangerous and gg's have enough to worry about just being female in this stupid world.

I think you need to stop defending your position so much and perhaps really wear your wife's shoes. I'm still leaning on the self-absorbed self-obsessed assessment of you based on this thread. How is that for a little truth?

[Leona]

Most cross dressers can't take the truth.

Maybe they should put on their big girl panties and learn to take the truth? Just a thought. My wife and I have had similar drama like you've said, and it did go away when she stopped bringing up negative emotions, and then I developed a view of her attitudes about crossdressing that was founded on a series of lies. By not telling me how she felt, she made a liar out of ME. She also showed a serious lack of trust in me by not trying. I mean, really, I feel exactly how some of the GGs that have come here have expressed their feelings about catching their SO CDing. I can't say I felt exactly how they felt, because I don't know exactly how they felt, just that I find myself using the same words they used to express how I feel about my wife keeping her negative feelings from me.

Sure, they might lead to drama for a bit, and we might cry together again. But we'll be doing it TOGETHER, and we'll be learning more about each other, more about ourselves, and working towards a more comfortable way to have the CDing in our lifestyle without the negative feelings. By keeping those feelings from me, she removed my voice in the relationship.

Now, that wasn't a one-off thing for her. She has consistently not let me have a voice in our relationship even before the crossdressing appeared, and that's the fundamental issue, so I don't see this as a CDing issue at all. I'm not an evil dictator, I just expect that the woman I think I'm married to is actually the woman I'm married to, after filtering out for the rosy-colored glasses a person in love wears.

I think you need to stop defending your position so much and perhaps really wear your wife's shoes. I'm still leaning on the self-absorbed self-obsessed assessment of you based on this thread. How is that for a little truth?

Can't wear my wife's shoes, she's a size 6. I'm introverted by nature, and under emotional duress I can easily cross the line into self-absorption. It's natural, normal, and reasonable, as long as I accept it and understand that it is happening. I never denied your statement, I only attempted to clarify what was obviously an emotional venting post. To me, the best defense is a good offense, so if I haven't started being offensive, chances are you still haven't gotten under my skin. So, feel free to try again, if you'd like.

However, what happened today clearly demonstrates that the communication channels are open any time she wants to talk. She texted me while I was at work (she's off today), and I had nothing going on, so we talked and flirted and stuff. It was exactly the same sort of thing she was missing when I wasn't starting conversations anymore, and she got exactly what she wanted by starting the conversation herself. Previously her MO on this was to complain to me that I stopped texting her. Today, she tried something different and got the result she wanted.

Also, however, her MO in the past has been to try something different for a few days, see some improvement, and then revert without understanding that the improvement didn't bring me to where she wanted me to be. Hmmm, I'll have to think about how to rephrase that. So I'd end up back where we were, and she's off on a comet having a wonderful marriage. I'm miserable and she's happy, and this discord is an obvious problem.

[Michelle (Oz)]

She texted me while I was at work (she's off today), and I had nothing going on, so we talked and flirted and stuff.

Too many issues to try to address so just one piece from my experience a year ago.

I made the big reveal of my dressing to my wife and was absolutely rejected. Yes, it would have been fantastic to have a supportive wife but that wasn't to be. It took me some months and the help of a psychologist to get over the hurt of not being truly loved and to accept myself. I made it clear then that I couldn't promise to stop dressing, that it was a part of me, but I didn't want to lose my wife and she did not want to lose me.

Over time I realised that my wife really did love me and issues (baggage) in her history made it very difficult for her. I stopped my sniping and negativity which was impacting our relationship, and we had a few weekends away to 'renew' our love. Worked wonders too - like you say, flirting again.

So how does this work now? From a conversation we had a month or so ago, she knows that I dress and where my female clothes are but doesn't want to think about it. I tell her I know she loves me totally and she understands my meaning. Me pushing her to understand and accept my dressing would simply be totally counterproductive to her journey. I very much doubt that she will ever want to participate or that she will even become accepting but who knows.

I'm out dressed 3 to 4 times a week. Change in a storage shed (oh so cold this time of year). But we are both very happy and very much in love. Importantly, I don't have guilt feelings.

You seem as if you will only be happy with your wife accepting that you are a CDer. It doesn't need to be so; there are alternatives for both to coexist in a happy loving relationship.