To the CDers Who Are Contemplating Counseling

[ReineD]

If you are at all interested to know what general therapists and gender therapists are learning about the crossdressing so that they can help you, you might want to buy this book:

Google book preview: Counseling LGBTI Clients - Kevin Alderson

They've devoted Chapter 7 to crossdressers and chapter 8 to MtF Transsexuals.

It is intended to be a text book and so it draws its information from virtually all the academic, peer reviewed studies that have been conducted in the trans-area. It is a modern approach since it was published just this year, and it suggests an affirmative approach to the counseling rather than an attempt to "cure" (page 151).

The publisher is making public the entire Chapter 7 (on crossdressing), and so I thought those of you who are looking for answers for yourselves or who are contemplating gender counseling with or without your wives might be interested. I'm posting this in the MtF CD section and not the Media section because the book is not a news source to be debated or commented on, but is rather counseling for crossdressers. There are even textbook exercises for the therapists, so you can imagine yourselves back at school learning about this.

I think that we are very fortunate to have been given Chapter 7 for free:

Chapter 7 entire PDF

[Kathi Lake]

Very interesting! Thanks!

The chapter title leaves me a bit cold, however. I'll have to read the entire chapter to see if the author thinks all crossdressers are fetishistic.

Kathi

[ReineD]

Yes, the chapter title is a little off-putting, but the author is quick to point out that reasons for CDing do change over time and also, that the term 'fetishistic crossdressing' comes from the origins of the crossdressing (most times it does begin during the teenage years sexually). And also the term should be used as an adjective, which indicates that the crossdressing is only a part of the total person, rather than a label that describes all of who they are.

Over all it's a balanced approach which is refreshing, IMO.



Edit - and most important, this is what all the therapists are learning about the CDing which is an eye opener in itself.

[GaleWarning]

I skim-read it, Reine and will read it more carefully over the weekend. The approach does seem more in touch with reality than those previously published.

[Zylia]

A very good read! It's a great starting point for many of us (crossdressers and significant others alike) to learn more about our 'shared interest' and I would really recommend everyone to read this, even if you think you don't fit the mold. It's very honest, also where it cannot offer answers, and non-condenscending, although one might think it is condescending because of the word 'fetish' in the title.

It's the first time I read about the idea of 'gender euphoria'. Literally made me laugh, maybe even out of recognition.

[Courtney . J]

ive never liked the idea of going to a counseling and really dislike it when people tell me it would be a good idea ,. i know who i am and who i want to be and i dont need anybody else to tell me what is right or whats wrong or acceptable



"its my life and im the one that is going to die when i die , so let me live the way i want to " - Jimi Hendrix

[ReineD]

Courney, I did not post this to imply that you or anyone else should seek counseling.

I instead posted this for people who do not understand the CDing as well as you do, and who do want answers or who are considering therapy. There is a significant number of people here who seek counseling alone and/or with their wives.

I also thought it would be extremely useful for everyone to see what the therapists are learning in their training, about the crossdressing. It's an amalgamation of every study that has been conducted in the trans-area, all in one place.

[PaulaQ]

Skimming chap 7, and the first few chapters available as a preview on amazon, this is a very good book. I was particularly happy to see that crossdressing was treated seriously, and sympathetically. Because I can tell you - a number of professionals I've spoken with who deal with trans people don't take CD's very seriously, which is a mistake, because CD's can certainly suffer too, and many do so.

Some reasons someone should consider counseling:
1. Marital issues
2. social / work issues
3. Issues with self-acceptance (This is super common.)
4. Help determining the extent of your gender dysphoria, and finding ways to mitigate / control it. (Maybe you need to transition, maybe you DON'T.)
5. Help understanding what's really going on inside your head - hey, society has told you "YOU ARE WRONG TO FEEL AS YOU DO!!!!!", is it any wonder some of us are confused?

In general, if you are happy, and your life is OK, there isn't much point in counseling. If you are having problems because of your CD, it's worth considering.

[Beverley Sims]

A contrast to the great "sickness and cure it" course previously administered.

[kimdl93]

I am so pissed. I read the article and wrote a long and deeply insightful commentary. Unfortunately, you'll never see it because my iPad inexplicably decided to 'time-out' my log in...so every word vanished. Believe me, it was thoughtful, provocative and highly entertaining. You'll just have to imagine it.

OK, I'm at a keyboard now. I won't attempt to recreate what I lost. I would make these observations. Many of the life experiences mentioned about fetish dressers resonate with most of us. Dressing at 7-8, resumption at puberty in association with sexual awakening. But the inference I got was that CDrs are made, not born. The chapter suggested that boys exhibiting early effeminate behaviors tended to be bi or homosexual but not CDrs. And went on to suggest that those fetish dressers who expand their dressing to a regular basis were essentially training themselves to be TS. To be fair, the author did qualify this assessment by acknowledging that this might also be simply result from uncovering some underlying need or inclination. They also noted that fetish dressers typically did not experience any GD, while that was common among TS individuals.

I think what got lost in the chapter was the middle ground transgender person. I look at myself and others who dress extensively, would go full time but for life circumstances, but do not suffer deep GD as something other than fetish dressers (not that there's anything wrong with that). I Its not a horrible flaw for us to be overlooked. Perhaps we'll get more attention in Chapter 8.

Its hard for behavioral health scientists to address the developmental factors that influence gender identification and sexuality, just as its difficult for each of us to see an exact representation of ourselves in studies of this sort. The number of cases is so small that generalizations are difficult.

[Sarah Beth]

Some twenty years ago when I was in graduate school we discussed this very issue in a couple of different at length. At that time there was a huge difference of oppinion between what I call the old guard and the new innovators. The old guard was really upset about all the moves to remove crossdressing and homosexuality from the list of "deseases" that afflict the human mind. They still believing that it was "curable" I could see at that time that the thinking as rapidly changing. The professors I had were all younger and their general thinking was that it being a cd, or gay, lesbian, tg was not a desease and did not require treatment. The feeling was that what counseling was needed for were those problems associated with the acceptance or lack there of of the lifestyle. The stress individuals face from the lack of acceptance in their own minds, and the issues the face in learning to accept, and in dealing with others who are not receptive to thier lifestyle.

So its nice to see that maybe the old timers have gone the way of the dinosaurs and some more rational thinking has taken over.

[Edyta_C]

I read this chapter and while I was pleased with the tone, the phrase "Fetishistic Crossdresser" bothers me. I was raised for my first 4-5 years as a girl. I loved the bonding and rituals that my mother poured on me. There was no sexual connotation in my mind during this period. While I did have a "fetishistic" period during puberty, I do not have any connection with sexual behavior in my dressing. While I can not say for sure that I am TS, I relate closely with those individuals transitioning. The author has an interesting approach to the counseling aspects of crossdressing, I think the terminology limits the result that the counseling can help the individual. I did not choose to be this way. My development is a result of Childhood and possibly DES during my time in the womb. So these authors really upset me with the quick to label and compartmentalize their patients. WE are all individuals and while there may be some generalization possible, I believe that in general we are individuals and need to be thought of in that manner.

Edy

Thanks to ReineD for her thoughts and bringing this chapter and book to our little corner.

[CassandraSmith]

Regarding the off-putting title Fetishishtic CDing, I'm thinking that's more of what they'll see client actually come in for. I've had a therapist for years and I've only mentioned it to her once in passing (oops, I made a funny) and was more concerned with other stuff. CDing has never seemed like someone negative to me and since I not only enjoy it, I'm trying to develop it, it's not really grist for the mill in therapy.

However, I have talked to several people here who have tremendous angst about it and are in pain over it. While I've had momentary blips of this and tried purging once, I realized that it was was somehow bound to who I am and thought I should learn to be more accepting of it within myself. Others aren't so lucky. One kid at my church is obviously struggling with this because he said to me point-blank "I wish I was a woman." I'm also positive that his parents would be against it and even beat him down about it.

[Zylia]

@Edyta_C Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I don't fully recognize myself as well, but I certainly do see where certain things do apply to me. I guess you cannot expect a 22 page document to be applicable to thousands of cross-dressing individuals. There's also no point in writing a (very necessary) guide if you're not allowed to make some generalizations. Where it does succeed is in normalizing the cross-dressing phenomenon, acknowledging that cross-dressing behavior itself isn't damaging or something that can or should be cured.

What I don't get is why you say you "did not choose to be this way". Are you suggesting that the 'classic' fetishistic cross-dressing persons actually did choose to be this way? That really is not the case and is well explained in the counseling guide.

[noeleena]

Hi,

As has been said to be cured or not, so the old school was one can be cured . cured of what dressing , so a man wears a dress, so what , does that make every man a dresser, , of cause not okay my que Renaissance times & other times men wore dress's & skirts. religous groups have done for 1000's of years, were they dresser's. no . so why is it only in the last 100 or so years theres this change . .

Is it a mental detail some will say no wrong . its allways been mental & Psychological if not then the brain / mind is a robot or you have no thinking or any thing to think with,

Why were so many of our people put in the nuthouse's because they in the minds of certain people had them sanctioned because they acted a little different or what ever was going on , yet many of those people were sane then 1940' to 60's yet when they talked about what happened to them 6 years ago they were as sane then as before, some became insane because of what they went through , those dr's , ill not say my thoughts about them lisensed thugs , yea well you know what i think of them,.....grrrrr.....

so dressing is it then a you choose or born with, well for most its you are programed at conception , now is this the case for drag queens they may just like dressing yet it says more they take the stage & wont to show off as exibisionests, so is that a wont or wired in,

japan = actors do similar all dressed up to the nines act out thier part, get off the stage then back to thier normal life till next time, are they then dresser's as well. go back into japans history, youll see some interesting detail.

Its not just western thinking , its 1000's of years to late, when you look at Japan, maybe western thinking has still not caught up .....yet.....oh well back to the nuthouse.......

...noeleena...

[Laurie A]

Reine,
Thanks for posting this, I skimmed over it this morning, and will read in more depth later. Several people seem to be uncomfortable with the term "fetishistic crossdresser"
I copied a paragraph from p. 142. Can you help me understand? " Essentialist in nature"? And what is meant by "our behavior is
largely socially constructed" (I never took a psych class, so the terminology is unclear)
Dela

As in previous and in future chapters, although
it is simpler to write
fetishistic crossdresser, the
term will be used only as an adjective to ensure
that the reader remembers that this identity is one
of many that a person owns. Furthermore, using
it as a noun suggests something essentialist in
nature, and that is not intended because, like
most psychological phenomena, our behavior is
largely socially constructed. This does not imply,
however, that something socially constructed can
be easily changed—or changed at all, for

[Ressie]

Thanks Reine. I'm getting something out of this after a few pages. FC is what I identify with, so the term doesn't bother me.

[Courtney . J]

Courney, I did not post this to imply that you or anyone else should seek counseling.

I instead posted this for people who do not understand the CDing as well as you do, and who do want answers or who are considering therapy. There is a significant number of people here who seek counseling alone and/or with their wives.

I also thought it would be extremely useful for everyone to see what the therapists are learning in their training, about the crossdressing. It's an amalgamation of every study that has been conducted in the trans-area, all in one place.

ok im sorry ,. i misread the OP and thought it was a question of how many people thought it was a good idea or bad idea for counseling ... dont mind me i can be a major blonde pretty often .lol

[ReineD]

That's OK, Courtney. I'm guilty of skimming through posts big time. There's a lot to read in this forum.




Dela, I take it that "essentialist in nature" means that it is your major identity or your major personality trait, which the CDing is not for the majority of CDers. It is just a part of their behaviors. This is why they use it as an adjective, to show that it is only an aspect of all of who you are. "Socially constructed" means that a large part of your behavior, likes, and dislikes, is learned through having lived in the environment that you lived in. For example, if you had been raised in a remote part of the Far East, you would have different cultural priorities, you would behave differently in society according to what is acceptable and not acceptable there, etc. It's the "nature vs. nurture" argument.

[Amanda M]

It seems to me that the author meant that cross dressing (amongst all our behaviors) is not genetic or an inborn trait, and is mainly due to social and psychological factors, and goes further to say that she does not imply that behavior formed as a result of environmental and social factors can be changed.

From my point of view, in most cases, socially constructed behaviors can be changed if need be. However, I do not see crossdressing as a behavior that should, or needs to be changed, unless it forms part of a psycho-pathological construct involving harm or potential harm to others. Even then, it would have to be viewed as only one part of the personality of the person affected.

Open to discussion, of course.

[ReineD]

It seems to me that the author meant that cross dressing (amongst all our behaviors) is not genetic or an inborn trait, and is mainly due to social and psychological factors, and goes further to say that she does not imply that behavior formed as a result of environmental and social factors can be changed.

I think it's important to keep in mind that TG behavior (which includes the CDing) is on a scale. There are nuclear CDers (who CD occasionally) and there are marginal CDers who CD more often and for whom there are varying degrees of feminine identity. I believe the author is saying that a fetish is born for the majority of the CDers during their adolescent years, which changes for some people to dressing for comfort, or for other people to varying degrees of feminine identity later on in their lives.

Chapter 8 is not available, but I'm guessing this is where the author would get into the various theories about in utero influences. I'm sure that many of our members will identity with some aspects of Chapter 8 as well. I wish that this chapter were also available.

... and again, whether the author mentions in utero influences or not (which, as far as I understand it is still a theory), the importance here is to see what the therapists are learning about general CDing (in Chapter 7), rather than reading the chapter to see what applies or doesn't apply to every individual CDer in this forum. Any newbie seeking therapy will now know everything about the CDing that the therapists know, which will influence how the CDers will be treated.

----------------------------------------- ~~~ -----------------------------------------

EDIT - Not to confuse everyone and although I haven't finished reading it, here is another paper from Dutch researchers. This one focuses on the fuzzy line between the more advanced CDing and the lesser advanced transsexualism (those who perhaps will not have SRS) or rather, Type IV on the Benjamin scale.

As an aside, this paper also focuses on a master self-system (initial gender identity) and a secondary self-system (feminine identity) which eventually takes over in some people, which is rather fascinating:

http://www.gendersanctuary.com/pdf/x...eridentity.pdf

So, the conclusion that I draw from this theory (keeping in mind that I have not finished reading the paper), is that whether or not an individual will want to feminize their body later on in their lives (late onset, perhaps Type IV transsexualism), rather depends on how well they deal with the cognitive dissonance of being a male bodied individual with strong feminine urges. Some people will integrate the feminine self with the masculine self and not wish to transition, while others will allow the feminine self to take over the initial master-self.

[kimdl93]

Despite my earlier comments, I do think there's some value in the conception that we may in some sense be rewiring our minds as we get more deeply involved in CDing. I've often wondered if the realization that I can do this has made my mind more receptive to expanding my experience. I look a this, from the perspective of a transgendered person, as realizing or uncovering something within me, rather than creating something from nothing. But hey, I could be wrong.

[Dianne S]

Despite my earlier comments, I do think there's some value in the conception that we may in some sense be rewiring our minds as we get more deeply involved in CDing.

I believe this is absolutely true. In The Brain that Changes Itself, Dr. Norman Doidge shows how the brain can rewire itself, both in good ways (adjusting after a stroke or other type of brain damage) and bad ways (addictive behavior reinforcing itself.)

The book is a great read and I think we do rewire our minds the deeper we get into CDing.

[ReineD]

Absolutely true, Dawn. The brain is just as subject to biological influences (the foods we eat, the drugs we injest, the experiences we live that change our brain chemistry) as is the rest of the body. People tend to think there is a separation between mind and body, but in reality both are an amalgamation of elements and chemicals.

[Frédérique]

There are even textbook exercises for the therapists, so you can imagine yourselves back at school learning about this.

Is there any chance that one of these therapists, or therapists-in-training, is a crossdresser? If so, I might be interested in hearing what they had to say about it. If not, I wouldn’t bother seeking their opinion on anything, nor would I feel at ease accepting “counsel” from such a person…

You get this all the time in the art world. Someone will expound their overly-educated expertise about what makes artists “tick,” sometimes in an uncomplimentary manner, but they themselves have never painted a picture, or sculpted a sculpture, written a poem, or composed a piece of music. Perhaps they can WRITE and make it sound cerebral and worthwhile, but the people they seek to counsel are the opposite of that mindset, individuals to a fault, winging it as they travel through life…

If you ask me, trying to make sense of things is a rather sense-less way to spend one’s life…