The Mind is a Dangerous Thing

[Veronica27]

I was preparing a reply to the recent thread by Frederique about convincing yourself that you are a woman, when I realized that I was getting way off topic, so I decided to initiate a new thread. My post was a reply to this post by Emma:

Reading the posts of sometimes-miss, Frederique and Veronica just confirms that many CDs do not understand the first thing about being TS.

You are correct in that I do not understand what being TS is all about. I have never claimed to have that knowledge for the simple reason that I am not TS, and thus have no way of understanding. Any references I may make to TS are simply a reiteration of what TS people say about themselves, in order to discuss how I differ from them and why I consider myself a crossdresser. I never deny that others may be either TG or TS. In fact there is ample evidence on this forum that the opposite is the case; i.e. that many TS and TG individuals not only do not understand crossdressers, but imply that crossdressers are not what they claim to be but are really TG or TS in denial. The following quotes are from this very thread, which was not about TS/TG vs CD, and yet that argument found its way into the replies.

A transsexual can rightly say she is a woman. Some TG people may be very close to expressing that feeling, but I suspect that most are somewhere farther away on the spectrum.

So it seems to me that much of the convincing going on here is from transgendered folks trying to convince themselves that they are male.

I see others trying to convince us they're men, they're not gay, they're only CD, It's just the clothes, they are not transgender, and on and on...

If they keep harping on the same thing I wonder who they really are trying to convince us or themselves?

I think many here suffer from a milder form of what TS suffer from, one that can be controlled with CDing. This makes them lucky. But they also have real problems, real issues, and real pain because of it, and many of the problems faced are common to both the CD and TS individual.

I think your premise, that there is some magical difference between "just a CD" who's convinced themselves they are a female and a transsexual is ridiculous. How can you possibly tell the difference between the two? I know many girls in transition who thought they were "just a CD". A LOT of TS girls would love it if they were "just a CD".

If there is any compulsion to have the need to cross dress then there is a intensity of gender dysphoria at some level. The trick is to recognize and confront it. Confronting it is where the issues arise.

This attitude, which prevails on this forum among the more frequent and aggressive posters, does tend to marginalize those who crossdress, and is very demeaning. It talks down to crossdressers and implies that CD's do not know themselves, but not to worry, because they do. If a crossdresser attempts to address this, they are met with replies saying "Not this again", or "This is getting monotonous". Not everyone on the forum agrees with this prevailing attitude about crossdressing. I can make another list of quotes from this same thread from those who addressed the topic, while leaving the impression that they do not follow the type of thinking in the above quotes. Some of these are from people who are "just a CD", as the topic did tend to bring out replies from them, but others are from TG, TS or whatever. They are simply less vociferous about their viewpoints as they don't wish to be overly controversial, and their posts are seldom commented upon by subsequent posters. Bearing in mind that they are in response to the question "have you convinced yourself that you are a woman" they are:

No, I have not convinced myself I am a woman nor am I likely to do so in the future. That part of me which is male is still very much a part of my life and I like what I see when look at him in the mirror.

I am a male who has many female feelings and traits. Sometimes I love to be dressed as a woman and feel all soft and sexy and sometimes I do very manly things like rebuilding my house or work on my truck. I know I am not a woman and never will be but I seem more womanly every year.

No and I will not be trying to do so. Happy as I am.

Nope, Freddy, and I don't even try. I'm a guy and in this life, at least, a guy I'll remain. Maybe in my next life.

Deedee

Standing up to pee does make it less convincing.
Very handy to be able to do that sometimes.

Maybe some of us CD's just don't get the trans experience?

If you believe you are a woman you're not a crossdresser. You may wear women's clothes but that's only a reflection of your inner self. You are TS. Conventionally most men who cross dress are just that men who cross dress for all kinds of reasons.

I am not, nor ever though of myself as being a woman. I am a man.

I don't believe myself to be a female. If I did not to some degree want to make myself feel as 'womanly' as I possibly could even know how to try to feel, then I wouldn't even dress I guess.

Actually Fredirque's last post has highlighted for me perfectly why I now realise there is a huge gulf between crossdressers and transsexuals. On the face of it, we have a lot in common. In reality there is little or no cross reference.

CDs are men who dress in women's clothes. TGs are women with men's bodies.


CDing is essentially a hobby or a need for certain men. A harmless occupation. Being TS is an unfortunate situation. An awful daily dilemma. If only I could just be a CD.

Even then I know I'm genetically a guy, and to be honest I very much want to keep that part of me alive. CD-ing for me is about realizing all that I am, not changing what I am.

"[B][I]No. Everytime I stand naked in front of a mirror, it's pretty obvious that I'm a man. It would take a whole lot of work to make me otherwise.

I am a male who likes to pretend he is a female from time to time. A crossdresser, nothing more.

I'm convinced that I'm a guy. There's plenty of evidence to support that notion. But pretending to be a female once in a while is also a part of me.

I am a man who likes to crossdress. I do not feel like a woman and have never tried to convince myself that I am one. I am a very inquisitive individual about many subjects, and wondering what being a woman must be like is certainly one of those subjects. That by itself does not mean that I must be harbouring an inner desire to be a woman. I am just curious. I also wonder what it must be like to be a bird, and be able to fly, but there is no way that I would ever want to be one. When I crossdress, it enables me to experience one relatively insignificant aspect of what it must be like to be a woman, i.e. appearance. It is fun, an adventure, involves a degree of risk, helps me to escape from the monotony of everyday life and is strangely both exhilarating and relaxing. Some of the clothing items are extremely comfortable or offer a sensuous experience that is much different than what is offered by anything in my male wardrobe. Skirts and hosiery and slips are prime examples of this. Other things can get quite uncomfortable or be a great nuisance, but are necessary to achieve the experience I am seeking. Bras, forms and makeup head the list here. Whenever I try to post a message or reply addressing this interest of mine, I am met with responses telling me that I am getting it wrong, that it is about my identity, my gender, my presentation or some combination of all three. Nobody has all the answers; we simply have theories and speculation about the why's and wherefore's of crossdressing. I don't tell othrs they are wrong, but simply express my theories and opinions about myself. My weakness is that I allow myself to be drawn into lengthy debates about this that often spill over into private messages. The alternative is to leave unanswered inaccurate opinions about me for the world to see.

What got me worked up enough to write something were some very disturbing posts on that thread by two transsexual members who discussed their stories complete with thoughts about suicide, drugs and so on. I do not understand what could possibly drive people to such extreme actions over gender issues, and that is why I agree that I do not understand TS. It also points out why I feel that there is a tremendous difference between CD, TG and TS. They are not simply stages on a continuum. But more to the point, I have had and still have family members, friends of family, and co workers who suffered various forms of mental illness. Schizophrenia, bi-polar or alzheimer's disease have been diagnosed in these people, which led to very devastating results for them and everyone close to them. In addition to the paranoia, hallucinations, depression and aggression displayed by these individuals, there have also been physical assaults and multiple forced hospitalizations in mental facilities. Three of these individuals took their own lives, and one of them also took the lives of his wife and young daughter along with him.

Gender dysphoria is no longer looked upon as a mental illness, but when I read those posts I saw a very disheartening similarity in many respects to those stories and the ones I experienced. I do not mean to minimalize what anyone is experiencing in their life, but this just emphasizes that I do not understand transexualism. As a crossdresser, I cannot fathom how gender issues could lead to such extreme measures as thoughts of suicide. Are there issues other than gender involved? Are thoughts of being a gender opposite to your physical sex actually a form of hallucination? Is it worse than a debilitating birth defect or loosing your sight?

We all have to endure whatever life throws our way. People suffer the loss of loved ones to terrible diseases or accidents. We can all relate to this. I lost my first wife to cancer at a relatively young age. I was left with young children to care for. The whole experience was devastating, but I couldn't allow myself to break down. I am not criticizing anyone for feeling as they do. I am just attempting to understand something that has been pointed out to me that I do not understand. I write this as I am awaiting the outcome of a court hearing tomorrow for a young man I know and love who has been battling his mental demons for months, and finally attacked his neighbours. Help for the mentally disturbed is very difficult to obtain until something dire happens.

Veronica

[docrobbysherry]

There's an old saying, Veronica. "It's simply mind over matter. If u don't mind, it doesn't matter".

As u explained, being TS is no picnic. It's no wonder they look down on us CDs. Many of us r just having fun with our dressing!

And, one more thing. Consider I started dressing at age 50 out of the blue about 15 years ago. I dressed, yes, but my dream then was to have real breasts and become a female! 10 years later, that dream faded away. And I became, "Simply a CD".

If my direction and psyche can change that dramatically in 10 years, why shouldn't girls that have known since they were very young, change their minds and directions a number of times during their life?

[Michelle789]

I was preparing a reply to the recent thread by Frederique about convincing yourself that you are a woman, when I realized that I was getting way off topic, so I decided to initiate a new thread. My post was a reply to this post by Emma:

This thread is even worse. God please remove all temptation to read this thread even further.

[PaulaQ]

I'll PM the OP tomorrow. Its late here now.

I can categorically state that I don't mean to demean MtF CDs in any way, and if you feel I am demeaning you, please feel free to pm me. I am always willing to discuss these things, and even apologize when I am wrong.

I can also assure you that I don't look down on anyone, especially not CDs who often face very real pain, and yet get ZERO support from most caregivers.

I also hope that NO ONE on this forum experiences what I have, or needs to transition.

I'll say more later, the op was lengthy and it's late. I do love and care about the people of this forum. If I err, I hope it is on the side of love.

[TheMissus]

This is why I think this forum needs to section things off a little further. If you're all confused, imagine how us GG's feel?! 'MTF Crossdresser' clearly covers too much ground and you've got TS mixing with TG mixing with fetish and all come under the CD banner. Is there any wonder these arguments happen?

I'll tell everyone here now that from an outside, objective perspective there is a CLEAR difference between the members here who are TG and those who aren't. CLEAR! There is zero doubt in my experience that there are very different types chatting here. The writing alone makes this clear. I have also observed that TG is more common here and I'd guess this is because a TG thinks about and participates more than the others. That's just a guess so correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, I just hope all the SOs reading here don't get as lost in the lingo as I do. I suspect it drives many away

[Deedee Skyblue]

This thread is even worse. God please remove all temptation to read this thread even further.

I hope you can overcome that temptation too. Also, perhaps the temptation to comment on threads you don't think are worth reading. Just go on to the next thread; you don't need to leave breadcrumbs to show you made a mistake be reading a particular thread.

Deedee

[Jodie_Lynn]

TheMissus Today 05:37 AM This is why I think this forum needs to section things off a little further. If you're all confused, imagine how us GG's feel?! 'MTF Crossdresser' clearly covers too much ground and you've got TS mixing with TG mixing with fetish and all come under the CD banner. Is there any wonder these arguments happen?

I disagree with the sentiment that we need to further categorize and box the different spectra, for that can only lead to further isolate and separate folks. Once we have divided out the broad categories (i.e Ts, TG, CD) where do we go from there? Subdivide again to 'CD's who wear pantyhose VS stockings'? ... 'TS who want to fully transition VS TS who wish to remain with dangly bits'? ... 'GG's who adore CD's VS GG's who tolerate?' Where does it end?

As far as I can see, most of the world's problems come down to "Us VS Them" thinking; once we can determine who 'they' are, it's easier to demean, denigrate and debase that-which-is-different. Please, please note that I am NOT saying that is what anyone here does, just that once we classify and sub-classify, and further sub-sub-classify each other, the harder it is to relate to one another.

As example, I am a gamer, and play tactical miniatures games, RPG's (with dice & models) and video games. In the gaming community, the Tactical sim players tend look down on the RPG-er's; the RPG-er's tend look down on the board gamers; and everyone (that I've encountered) looks down on the card players. And each of these genre of gamers look down upon other genres in their own 'divisions'. Once again separating into 'tribes'.

[mariehart]

Well you've highlighted my quote that there is a huge gulf between TS and CD and you indeed have confirmed that in your own comments. But of course we do have a lot in common. Crossdressing for one thing. Our motivation might be different but the result is that same.

There is an ongoing thread on why men and women are different. In a funny way this and other threads confirm that. CDs are men who dress as women. TS are women who were born male. I have often observed a certain crankiness among TS contributors to this and other forums, sometimes seeking offence where none is intended. I try and avoid that myself and indeed I sometimes I also feel unqualified to comment on TS matters as I have no further intention of taking it further right now.

So almost by default I am a CD even if my motivation is different. I completely agree that most but not all CDs are men who crossdress for their own reasons. I've met plenty. I've also met men who dress as WW2 soldiers and re-enact battles. I don't quite get that either. But I think it's great fun and would have no prejudice against anything like that. You don't have to feel like a woman to dress as one. I think the commonest motivation is to escape from your male self for a time and crossdressing is a catalyst for that. It seems to me that there is too much emphasis on the so called differences between men and women to the point that men are restricted from expressing their true selves. Crossdressing it seems to me facilitates that expression of the female side which everyone has. I think that's good, even necessary.

On the other point:

As a crossdresser, I cannot fathom how gender issues could lead to such extreme measures as thoughts of suicide. Are there issues other than gender involved? Are thoughts of being a gender opposite to your physical sex actually a form of hallucination? Is it worse than a debilitating birth defect or loosing your sight?

As one of those who has stood on the brink, literally in my case. I could try and explain but it almost defies explanation. It's not mental illness but people commit suicide for more that mental health reasons. In my own case all the illusions that allowed me to deny my identity fell away one by one until I was left with the un-escapable reality. I'm mentally robust but I was on a downward curve and who do you tell about this? Your family? Your friends? Support is minimal. You are on your own. Even you say you cannot understand and if anything you are in a better position than others. It wears you down allied to the daily reality that you have to pretend to be someone you're not.

So as you ask are there issues other than gender involved? Well yes. It's not as if you can turn around and tell everyone you know that you've realised you're actually TS and are about to start a process that will lead to you living full time as a woman and having surgery. They're not likely to rally around and have a coming out party are they? You will meet hostility, lack of understanding and you will upset a lot of the people you love. If you're married you will devastate your wife and who knows what effect it will have on the kids. You'll lose friends and family members and open yourself to losing your job and you home. Are these other factors sufficient? Meanwhile you're still struggling with the gender issues.

In fact all of the above is a factor for me and I don't even get to crossdress very often. So I don't even have that.

Makes mere crossdressing seem like a bit of fun doesn't it? Probably explains why some TS people seem cranky.

Nevertheless I don't see why we shouldn't get on. We have a lot more in common than separates us.

[Kate Simmons]

In the end, it is what it is regardless of what we may believe it is. A spade is of course a spade but we can sometimes have fun with it by calling it a queen.

[Beverley Sims]

Veronica I applaud you for taking time to compose your thread.
It shows by the amount of comments you have extracted and categorized.
I can only add that those transitioning have raised the stakes and have far more commitment than those of us who just dress.
As a result CDers are sometimes considered second class citizens by some and any levity shown by me is sometimes frowned upon.
It is not that I am oblivious to problems of transitioning, as some years ago I supported two girls who eventually made a success of it.
I had to accompany them through the mood swings, apprehension on what the future held and a myriad of medical uncertainties .
I was on the transsexual forum and supported something that Frederique had said, only to be howled down and just about tarred and feathered as there was a split belief as to what was being said.

This thread could also develop into a cat fight with name calling all round.
I hope not and if all those with extreme views stop and consider that there are others with limited experience and viewpoints we will all learn something.

I would like to see a long discussion by all sides so as we can all learn something.
I learn something new every day.
If you are having a bad day today, wait till tomorrow when you feel better able to reply.
I will even steer away from levity as it does inflame others.

The fact that there seems to be more cross dressers than any other classification here is that it is called a cross dressers forum.
I do not think more sections are needed just if you visit another section be mindful of who frequents it.

I think it helps people to be able to vent here as they are crying out for help and a soothing word is all that is needed to get them back on track.
Some are very alone, living by themselves and wondering where their next dollar is coming from.

So those of us who have a good life and there are many, just lend support by replying in kind to those that need help.

Let's see where Veronica's thread can go.
I hope constructively.

[Marcelle]

Hi Veronica,

Mine was one of the quotes you used in your post. I hear you on this point. I am a CD (plain and simple) and am slowly coming to grips that this is normal and good for me in an emotional healing sense.

Do I understand the TS/TG/CD debate. To some degree yes and to some degree no. With the exception of TS (which is clear and definitive - girl in boy body), the TG/CD thing has me stumped. Why do we (the collective community) insist on applying some sort of label in an attempt to classify/justify our existence. Can't we just accept who we are without a label . . . Girls/guys we are people/humans/homo sapiens plain and simple.

It reminds me of old Dr Seuss story my mother used to read to me (can't remember the name). However, there was a village where two typical Dr Seuss characters lived and while they were identical to a fault, one had a star on their stomach and one did not. The ones with the star thought they were superior and lorded it over the non-star ones. So one day the non-star ones decided to create a machine with put a star on their stomach so they could achieve what the star group had. Naturally, when they came out, the ones with the stars decided to create a machine to remove the star so they could be different and distinct again. This continued with each group changing over and over again to the point where nobody could tell the difference and they realized how silly it all was.

Now before someone jumps down my throat and says "Huh . . . what does this have to do with CD/TG?" I want to state (for the record) it has to do with acceptance and understanding that one group does not have a right to claim superiority over another group when that group is trying to achieve the same result.

In our collective community it is not about accepting who your are and being comfortable with yourself (CD/TS/TG). One group should not claim the other group can not understand or comprehend because they are not the same, just as the other groups should not dismiss this with simple "oh well it is what it is" (guilty myself). Are we not here for mutual support? Should we not give each other a shoulder to cry on? Does it really matter if you are CD/TS/TG or even GG? ( my . . . that is a lot of acronyms) No, we are all people, and while we come at this thing from different angles/perspectives, we are trying to achieve the same aim . . . inner peace and acceptance.

Okay, I will now jump off the Isha rant train.

Hugs

Isha

[Sally24]

I think the problem comes down to a small number of people that think they can know what is in other people's minds. When you talk about yourself, I see it as useless to contradict you. Now when you try to talk about everyone as a group, the discussion is open to everyone's interpretation. I just think there are too many "experts" and too many that believe there is only one true way to do this or that.

As far as being driven to thoughts of suicide, think of it in this medical context. It's like comparing your state of cding to a person with a medical condition that can be managed with a prescription VS someone with chronic pain that is with them every waking hour. Something that is in your mind every minute of every day can be a hard thing to live with. I can filter down my own condition but those with a more severe form are lucky to make it out alive.

[sara.s]

I was in a bar one day dressed up, and one TS tried to convince me hard that I am a TS/TG in closet, because I was wearing jeans and a top, and she thought CD's would not dress like plain normal girls. That was a little disturbing to me!

[Marleena]

I'll get in on this one before it's locked.

Cder's want to be called Cder's.

TG want to be called TG because they feel they take it beyond CDing (perhaps fulltime).

Some are quick to call others Bi or gay or constantly remind us they are straight. I stand by my quote in the OP.

The biggest problem is the word transgender used as an umbrella term for all MTF's. It will always cause issues as people stand their ground for what they believe they are (sometimes to the point of constant threads on the matter). Rodney Dangerfield said "I can't get any respect" and some people remind us of that constantly.

Can't we all get along?? <--- taken from a former member's signature.

[Beverley Sims]

Marleena,
Too many labels that people want to place on themselves and way too much over thinking!

I can see pre and post op transsexual, and CD. There is another slot for those yet undecided, and I mean no disrespect as to what label they adopt.

In my view this describes the types of people on the forum.

[Marleena]

Marleena,
Too many labels that people want to place on themselves and way too much over thinking!

Exactly!

As far as the TS issue, there is no issue either. People just need to take time to research the TS phenomena to understand it. Ignorance is bliss. I'm willing to bet most people researched why they CD.

[arbon]

As u explained, being TS is no picnic. It's no wonder they look down on us CDs. Many of us r just having fun with our dressing!

There is a lot of truth in that statement.

These threads make my head spin.

Gender is complicated, identity is complicated. All I really know is that I feel a lot better about myself living as a woman then I did as a guy.

[Frédérique]

I was preparing a reply to the recent thread by Frederique about convincing yourself that you are a woman, when I realized that I was getting way off topic, so I decided to initiate a new thread.

You’re a BRAVE girl, Veronica…

Being an MtF crossdresser on this site is a lot like being an owl, sitting in a tree, in broad daylight, looking for a little sustenance. Crows are the enemy of the owl, and, if a crow spots an owl, it will challenge the presence of that owl, since the two species are after the same basic thing. The crow will scream bloody murder, which will attract other crows in the immediate vicinity. These crows, in turn, will attract even more crows from far and wide. Needless to say, the crows far outnumber the owls, and an owl bold enough to make his (or her) presence known simply becomes a target…

I once saw this actually happen. Hundreds of crows, the “murder of crows” you will often hear about, were berating this lonely owl. The racket was incessant and deafening. Eventually, after what seemed to be an hour or more, the owl was forced to withdraw, unfulfilled, humiliated, and hungry. The owl has the right to sit in a tree if he (or she) wants to, but the crows take issue with this, and they drive it away. Go ask the crows why they do that, and see where it gets you. BTW, I’m not saying the owl is wise, or wiser than the crows, but, even though they are very different creatures, they are both related in an avian sense. The moral of this story? Leave the MtF crossdressers ALONE!!!

This attitude, which prevails on this forum among the more frequent and aggressive posters, does tend to marginalize those who crossdress, and is very demeaning. It talks down to crossdressers and implies that CD's do not know themselves, but not to worry, because they do. If a crossdresser attempts to address this, they are met with replies saying "Not this again", or "This is getting monotonous". Not everyone on the forum agrees with this prevailing attitude about crossdressing.

Around here, the prevailing winds are always COLD…

And, one more thing. Consider I started dressing at age 50 out of the blue about 15 years ago. I dressed, yes, but my dream then was to have real breasts and become a female! 10 years later, that dream faded away. And I became, "Simply a CD". If my direction and psyche can change that dramatically in 10 years, why shouldn't girls that have known since they were very young, change their minds and directions a number of times during their life?

Your story is a LOT like mine, eerily so, and I imagine there are others like us. Since change is inevitable, why not embrace that as a HUMAN characteristic, learn to live with it and, perhaps, even learn to love ourselves along the way? We’re supposed to be complex sentient beings, aren’t we? I’m content to be a crossdresser, period, but that “viewpoint” is always subject to change…

Sherry, I think you’re one of the few people around here who is OK with “not knowing for sure,” while nearly everyone else is intransigent, or unswerving, or just plain stubborn…

[Alice Torn]

Freddy , and others are right, in we are all changing beings, and we need to live and let live. One recovering alcoholic may say "I am so and so, and i am an alcoholic. Another, will say, " I am so and so, and I am a recovering alcoholic", and another may say, I am so and so, and I am a recovered alcohoic." Then, there may be a disagreement about the terms used, when they are all really related, and in the same boat. Same with us.

[Amanda M]

Ben Franklin had it right. "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately".

In fighting again, handbags at 20 paces.

[Jaymees22]

I know nothing, but we are all people and we are all in this life together so lets make the best of it.

[PaulaQ]

Being an MtF crossdresser on this site is a lot like being an owl, sitting in a tree, in broad daylight, looking for a little sustenance. Crows are the enemy of the owl, and, if a crow spots an owl, it will challenge the presence of that owl, since the two species are after the same basic thing. The crow will scream bloody murder, which will attract other crows in the immediate vicinity. These crows, in turn, will attract even more crows from far and wide. Needless to say, the crows far outnumber the owls, and an owl bold enough to make his (or her) presence known simply becomes a target…

I once saw this actually happen. Hundreds of crows, the “murder of crows” you will often hear about, were berating this lonely owl. The racket was incessant and deafening. Eventually, after what seemed to be an hour or more, the owl was forced to withdraw, unfulfilled, humiliated, and hungry. The owl has the right to sit in a tree if he (or she) wants to, but the crows take issue with this, and they drive it away. Go ask the crows why they do that, and see where it gets you. BTW, I’m not saying the owl is wise, or wiser than the crows, but, even though they are very different creatures, they are both related in an avian sense. The moral of this story? Leave the MtF crossdressers ALONE!!!

I'm very sorry that you feel alone, isolated, and out-numbered Freddy. Nobody should feel so alone. I would simply point out that the post counts alone in the MtF CD section compared to the MtF TS section imply that MtF CDs are not really outnumbered. (Quite the opposite MtF CDs are the vast majority of participants on this site.) I think you also have a pretty healthy following of supporters who really enjoy and find merit in your posts, liking your writing style, and the questions you ask. It's unfortunate you aren't feeling the love today, but I guess we all have days like that. I do hope you feel better soon.

[Ressie]

OK, maybe there isn't one spectrum: CD....TG....TS... but how about set theory where each set intersects? We have set A (CD) set B (TS) and where these two intersect there are CDs who are also TS. More sets could be added and this could get quite complicated, but there seems to be some overlapping going on between gender dysphoria, gender identity etc.

[ReineD]

It's no wonder they look down on us CDs. Many of us r just having fun with our dressing!

I like to think that I'm fairly objective, since I don't have a personal stake in it either way but honestly, I never take it that TSs are "looking down" on CDers.

This is what I do see: Most people speak from their own personal perspective, which is really the only thing they know. So if someone used to identify as a CD and now identifies as a TS, she will likely think this is the path for others. Or, if someone is gender fluid, they will tend to think that others in this community are gender fluid too. Don't forget, we are talking about things that cannot be seen (basic motives) so really it's up to anyone to define it as they will, mostly in terms that make sense to them personally.

To Veronica, I wouldn't waste my time arguing, since this makes a CDer seem defensive. Just state who you are and then move on.

... but keep in mind that you are indeed a part of this community, by virtue of the fact that you present as a woman. You do fall under the overall transgender umbrella, even though you identity solidly as a man. You are not "gender normative", which for men, is a biological male who identifies as a male (like you), who lives as a male (like you), and who presents as a male (unlike you).

[Lorileah]

I'll get in on this one before it's locked.

You have been here a long time haven't you?

I don't know why this keeps coming up and it gets to the same point where nothing is decided and everyone is angry.

Why do semantics keep having to be redefined over and over?

If we all used the same language it would be easier. All this crap about being subjugated or put down is in your mind. There is a continuum here. There are no set points. The TS's don't get extra credit for recruiting. And who uses the term "just a CD" the most? The CDs. The TSs tend to stay away from the MtF section and they don't "lord" over anyone here anyway. No one really cares where on the spectrum you are. It does NOT matter. Yet there is always someone...a "CD" or "non-gender conformist" (because after all a NGC is NOT a CD right?? You don't want to be in the same section as a CD) usually...who needs to stoke the fires.

My issue is the use of words, the use of words to inflame and goad and cause a reaction. The main one is TG. If we all agreed on what a TG is then this whole subject would be moot right? But even when there is a sticky with the definitions, there are those who need to redefine. It is OK to use DQ, GQ, CD, TS if you want to be specific, but the TG would be for when you want to encompass everyone. Even if you don't want to be part of the party. Instead of saying "all the DQs, GQ, TSs, CDs" you could just say "all the TGs" but no, someone doesn't want to play with the others so they raise a fuss. And it has been going on for years now with no resolve. There is a song in 1776 where John Adams is finally reaching the breaking point. You see history repeats itself in many ways and this forum is no different than the Congress of 1776

You see, we piddle, twiddle, and resolve
Not one damn thing do we solve
Piddle, twiddle, and resolve
Nothing's ever solved in
Foul, fetid, fuming, foggy, filthy
Philadephia!

This horse is not only dead it is decaying.

I am sorry a few here seem to think they are being disenfranchised. I don't agree with everyone here either. But if you don't like the playground, don't use the swings. Point was made that there are far many more threads in the MtF section than the Ts section. So it seems the CDs have the numbers and most don't feel that they are being discriminated against. Maybe when people can stand up and say I am a CD and not add "just" or "only", things will work out better. But when you state with a disclaimer I think you see yourself as less, not someone else seeing you as less.