A curious thing

[MissTee]

I learned a few weeks ago that at another location in my company we have a transitioning (M to F) employee. The company is very progressive and supporting. I've watched and listened from behind the scenes as conversations have unfolded. The guys have all responded like neanderthals, joking and jabing about gayness and how it's becoming more and more pronounced. of course, none want to come out and say they are OK with it. It's like -- unmanly.

An interesting observation is the GG behavior. Initially, there was some unrest with several when they learned they'd have to share the restroom with the transitioning employee. Other than that the GG's have responded with curiosity and a rather supportive stance. I've polled GG's individually and in groups about this. They've expressed how this employee deserves to be respected, allowed to express herself, and so on. Almost all want to draw closer to employee and lend a helping hand.

Ever the budding human behavioralist, I posed the question, "well, what if that were your husband dressing up. Not transitioning mind you, just dressing up. How would you feel about it then?" Wham-o. Responses ranged from the evasive "Oh, he would never do that," to "I don't sleep with girls." The dominant theme was the GG's would befriend one of us, but very few would support the idea of their man in a skirt.

I'm sure the GG's here are a breed apart, but it does appear mainstream folks have clear expectations regarding delineation of gender behaviors. What say yee?

[Badtranny]

Why is it so offensive that someone would rather their man be masculine?

I am attracted to very masculine men. What am I supposed to do with that attraction if my man comes out of the closet and wants to become feminine? I am simply not physically attracted to femininity in men OR women.

...I was born that way.

[Beverley Sims]

When polling girls on this subject...
I will welcome someone into the fold ....
I don't want it in my patch though.
\Males Ha Ha, another poof wanting to be a girl. Ha Ha.

That is almost the universal opinion until they meet up with the unknown and get to know them.

[PaulaQ]

Yes, there are women who have very definite ideas about gender roles in their own relationships. My wife is one of them.

Your story also illustrates, btw, why there are a lot of lonely transwomen.

[Vickie_CDTV]

That is the opinion of most GGs I have talked to about it. One thing if a guy wants to dress, but they wouldn't want their man to ever do it No wonder some of us are so lonely.

[Michelle789]

I think there's a lot of people who say they accept gays, CD, TG, and TS, and are even for equal rights for LGBT people, but if they're own son or daughter is LGBT, they're getting disowned.

[jennyluvly]

Totally agree with Vickie & Michelle. It's OK if that person is someone they have no relationship with, but when it's someone they know or related to, then it's a whole new different opinion. But I think it's understandable as CD/TV/TG/TS are type-cast with very negative images, i.e perverts!!

[sometimes_miss]

I'm sure the GG's here are a breed apart, but it does appear mainstream folks have clear expectations regarding delineation of gender behaviors. What say yee?

Nothing new under the sun here. People are either turned on, or turned off by certain things. Women almost universally are sexually turned off by a man behaving in ways to suggest that he may have other feminine traits. I think it's partially genetic, where a woman who mated with a male with any submissive traits could be less likely to defend his family, so over millions of years, those women who were attracted to that type had those gene combinations die off. Random combination will still occur and there will be a few 'mutant' women out there that are naturally attracted to feminine guys, but it's quite rare, as we all know.

[tiffanyjo89]

Your question, about it being their husband is very important.

Most women, I feel, would be friends with a CDer, and some would even continue to date someone who dresses up. I think the area where a lot changes is when someone is in a long term relationship or in marriage. They have developed this idea of who you are, and that idea is firmly implanted in their mind. To have anything that will possibly change that makes them question if the person they are with really is the right one for them.

I feel that CDing doesn't change the man, but it does change the perception of the man. Like I said, if you come out to your gf, and she is okay with it, but makes it clear that she doesn't want to "sleep with a girl" I think it's important to respect that.

[kimdl93]

I think that there are two dynamics going here. One is that males evidently possess incredibly fragile conceptions of their own masculinity. They must constantly reinforce it by making manly statements and ridiculing others for an apparent lack thereof. Even in the abstract.

With GGs its different. They don't feel that their femininity is threatened by another person's life choices...not even indirectly. On a one-to-one basis all the social conventions are, however, suspended. its not hypocrisy to prefer a masculine or feminine partner...that's simply how one is wired. The other thing you have to consider is the difference between reactions to the abstract notion of a partner who is CD, versus how a person would really react. That abstraction omits all of the dynamics that go into a relationship. The answer for any individual may be very different depending on the age, length of relationship, level of affection, and other stress factors, like finances and family connections.

[Lori Kurtz]

I find it not surprising at all that many women would be compassionate and kind to a person that they aren't intimately involved with, but who has gender issues. And wouldn't it be great if most men could be equally compassionate and kind? I also am not surprised that many of those same women say they would not want their intimate male partners to manifest gender issues. If the male is a CD for whom the dressing up is an important part of his sexual excitement, this is not something that the woman chose or wanted. And if the male is a TS, meaning that he--or rather, she--is not really a male at all, this puts the woman in an even more unexpected position. Of course, in the OP's post, the concept of "what if that were your husband dressing up" is purely hypothetical. Life throws all kinds of unexpected challenges before us: career setbacks, diseases, deaths of loved ones, devastating accidents, and gender issues, just to name a few. Some of us (including some women married to CDs or TSs) rise to those challenges, and the relationships survive, developing in new and unexpected ways. Some people, and some relationships, crumble. No one can know for sure what will happen until it happens.

[trisha11]

This is exactly the behavior my exwife took. Told me we could be "girlfriends" after the divorce but she couldn't be married to a crossdresser. Very interesting

[Jenniferathome]

Until put to the test, no one knows how they will really behave. I'll wager every woman here would have said, "My husband wouldn't do that." And yet, they are here.

As for the male commentary, what stand did you take? Why not openly support this person?

[reb.femme]

I work in an engineering environment, don't do the dirty work myself these days , but I'd have no trouble supporting such a person at my work place.

A couple of GG's saw a CD sister at the local supermarket and one of them was having a laugh over it with the guys. The other girl was quite supportive in that a person was happy to express their identity. The usual banter ensued that he/she was obviously gay, so had to make it clear that this was not actually the case. I'm more than happy to make these stands and have no problem with the banter back.

Rebecca

[Chickhe]

If you think about it, if it was a F2M person, would the guys not want to help him learn to drink beer and stuff? I don't agree with the ignorant behaviour, but on a certain level, probably most of the guys don't even believe what they are saying...it is almost obviously ridiculously extreme posturing, a way to quickly get over the topic so they can avoid any real deep political conversation. Go for a one on one conversation and I bet its more civil.

[Jaymees22]

I worked at progressive company also. When one of our co-workers transitioned MTF the responses from others were pretty much as you have stated in your OP. The guys joked and the restroom issues came up with the women.

I think some of us thought this person was very brave and very committed to making this huge change in her life. Everyone had to go to meetings and had an opportunity to discuss their feelings, but basically they told us how to act towards her.

I really don't remember her getting much support from her co-workers. I do think it made me aware how difficult it would be to transition and stay working at the same job in the same place. I think it might of been easier to transfer or change jobs after transitioning. She ended up transferring anyway and then was let go in one of the many downsizings we had.

Jaymee

[Cheryl Ann Owens]

Just a thought here. The guys in a group might feel a need to act "like the guys" and put down someone transitioning or perceiving them as gay to have the acceptance of the guy group. Alone, some of these guys might actually add their support and understanding if they are anywhere near enlightened / educated. One never knows if those "macho" guys may have deep seated issues of their own.

Cheryl

[Stephanie47]

The reactions do not surprise me at all. I think women may be viewed as more nurturing than men. Maybe, it's because their general role in society is to provide the majority of nurturing and upbringing at the early ages. I realize your polling is not scientific. I wonder if your sample of women represents a cross section of women. The more educated and sophisticated, maybe the more supportive. I suspect the more uneducated segments of society would have a more negative opinion of transgendered men. The question as to "their" man just dressing up is really a different issue. A transitioning man may be viewed as the person born into the wrong body, while wearing the clothing of women is probably viewed as aberrant behavior for which they did not sign onto in their marriages. I suspect your sample was comprised of women who have not really encountered a cross dressing man or are married to one and do not want to expose him. Isn't it enough for a woman to deal with the husband one on one? Think of all the issues a woman has to explain or endure because she is married to and remains married to a cross dressing man.

Society creates the expected norms and morals to which everyone is expected to adhere.

The guys? That's no more than collective group mentality. I think any deviation from expected male sexual behavior is not supported. My experience of talking to guys in general over six decades indicates men perceive gays and cross dressers as an attack on the collective manliness.

[suzanne]

I have seen something similar. My 25 year old daughter is a Gemini like myself and has a very strong masculine streak. She is a kickboxer, which to my mind Is among the most masculine of activities. It is roughly the equivalent of a guy being the bride or prima ballerina. So she has no problem with girls swimming in the boys end of the pool. She says she has gay and lesbian friends and is cool with however they want to live their lives.

But she is completely freaked out about my being a crossdresser. By agreement with my wife, I had no intention of coming out to her, but she walked in on me in my bedroom one day. She hasn't been the same toward me since, although we have gone clothes shopping together once. She confessed to her mom, "I know it's not supposed to be a big deal, but that's my DAD." Lesson learned. When things happen close to home, they are no longer easy to digest theoretical concepts.

[gautier_nikolai]

GGs tend to be natually more naturing due to hormonal differences and effects of nurture; on average ofcourse!Therefore i can totally understand them wanting to support and nurture those that they *feel* may be in a more vulnerable situation than others.

I also think that reproduction and the reproductive urge has extremely strong roots in evolution (otherwise we would all be dead a a species) and for millenia past it was supremely important that they picked a physically strong and agressive male who would ostensiably show the traits that would protect them from any potential danger.P.S. Not saying any CDs wouldn't or haven't done this nowadays!

Those are mostly masculine traits that have been evolutionally associated with that.I think evolution hasn't been able to catch up with societal advances totally yet and the old cognitive mammalian circuits need a good reprogramming and reboot in some cases!

It;'s a shame.Most GGs settle for halfway; a male who doesn't express too much feminity but doesn't go too far in their eyes.Therefore he shows enough interest in helping parenting their kids nowadways and isn't totally hunt, hunt, hunt focussed and so masculine (like the modern badboy representation) that the only attraction is simply a strong lust.

Most GGs tend to outgrow the badboy phase from what i understand; just like most guys grow out of the wanting a GG as just a sex object.

[tiffanyjo89]

...Of course, in the OP's post, the concept of "what if that were your husband dressing up" is purely hypothetical. Life throws all kinds of unexpected challenges before us...

That's another aspect. If someone you just started a relationship with said they had a disease, like someone that you just met and have only been dating for a few weeks/months that would be a major deal breaker for someone. They probably wouldn't cut the person out of their life, but they probably wouldn't want to be romantically attached to them. Now, same couple, same disease, developing later in life, they probably can work around it.

I don't want y'all to think I'm making CDing out to be the same as, let's say, diabetes, but a woman knowing that her husband has been doing this all along their relationship and before they met would probably mean he's been hiding other stuff in his life too. Same woman, same man, same CDing, revealed early in a dating relationship, might mean that the woman can learn to accept it, and take time to learn about when she isn't having to live with the man everyday.

Now, take romantic attachments out, and most women would probably be glad to help a CD or TS person out in developing their own identity.

[vallerie lacy]

Once again it boils down to ignorance and the " good old boys mentality" . If you don't understand it make sure you snicker about it with the others

[Lori Kurtz]

I'm totally convinced that a major reason for homophobia--especially for the most virulently homophobic--is the individual's discomfort with some urges that he wishes he didn't have. I always suspect that a viciously homophobic guy is probably a deeply closeted gay guy.

So I wonder if a similar thing happens with guys' attitudes toward CDing. I wonder if guys' discomfort with the idea of CDing is that some of those guys might have secrets of their own. Like, have they tried on a pair of panties? Did they ever fantasize about such a thing, or about going further than that? Are they underdressed right now? Don't ya just wish there was a way to find out the answers to questions like that when you hear guys disrespecting CDs and TSs?

[Tracii G]

I have a FtM friend that found the people she worked with were having a hard time accepting.
Most of the men he works with didn't have a problem with it but the women did.They assumed she/he was lesbian and treated her with contempt.
She is a line worker for a local cable company so its a manly job pretty much.
She/he isn't what I would call "butch" but more a feminine looking guy.Very handsome really.
I went to a one of his company picnics as a date at his request so the women would be more civil towards him.
Its really been a hard road for him so far.

[UNDERDRESSER]

If you think about it, if it was a F2M person, would the guys not want to help him learn to drink beer and stuff? I don't agree with the ignorant behaviour, but on a certain level, probably most of the guys don't even believe what they are saying...it is almost obviously ridiculously extreme posturing, a way to quickly get over the topic so they can avoid any real deep political conversation. Go for a one on one conversation and I bet its more civil.

I have never been in this position, and I'm not sure what my "instinctive" reaction would be, or even quite what would drive that "instinct"

I will however, soon be in that position. A teenager that my GF mentors, has come out as FtM TS. She has been spending a little time with him, and we are both working on a couple of projects to help him in day to day life. ( parents have disowned her, assholes. ) I am more than happy to make some household donations, and other things to help him set up independently, how I will feel when I meet him though? Ones response to an unexpected situation like this, is often not, what one feels inside, but quite often what one thinks, is expected of us. I know I've been guilty of this, and try to watch out for it.

Just a thought here. The guys in a group might feel a need to act "like the guys" and put down someone transitioning or perceiving them as gay to have the acceptance of the guy group. Alone, some of these guys might actually add their support and understanding if they are anywhere near enlightened / educated. One never knows if those "macho" guys may have deep seated issues of their own.

Cheryl

Exactly, that's what I'm talking about.

Huh, just proofread this, and had to change several instances of her to him. Habits. I think a lot of how I respond to him will be about how the physical appearance strikes me on first acquaintance.