Are Cross-dresser prone to other fetishes???

[Marcelle]

Well every one seems to be in full denial mode here. So where are your studies and how many subjects did you have in them? Did you do proper statistical analysis and correlate variables properly?

Yup . . . did the pigeon causes cancer study complete with a differential and power analysis . . . still say the paper in question is rubbish.

Hugs

Isha

[Lucy_Bella]

Yes CONSUELO...
I have the battle scars to prove it from living a lifetime dealing with it..What have these people who conduct these studies have to show in their worthy-ness? A piece of paper ?

[Zylia]

Okay, I am going to put my social scientist hat on. When it comes to statistics, well lets just say you can use statistics to prove "pigeons cause cancer" . . . actually did this in grad school. A lot of studies will produce descriptive statistics (2.5% said blah, blah) to sensationalize a finding. Remember for a lot of research scientist is "publish or perish". What is missing is significance . . . I can posit that statistically there is a relationship between pigeons and cancer (correlation) but it is not statistically significant, which means it is only a number.

Yes, correlation does not imply causation, we know that trick. The point is that, at least according to the summary the OP posted, the researchers didn't point out any causality, just a significant correlation between certain types of sexual behaviour (including fetishistic cross-dressing) among, I have to admit, very few people.

[ReineD]

I've read the study. It is available as a PDF download if you go to scholar.google.com and search for "transvestic fetichism". The study is entitled "Transvestic Fetishism in the General Population: Prevalence and Correlates", Langstrom and Zucker, published in the Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy, 2005.

It looks solid to me. Perhaps those who criticize the methods and measures can read and interpret the statistics themselves first.

[Lucy_Bella]

The study is entitled "Transvestic Fetishism in the General Population: Prevalence and Correlates", Langstrom and Zucker, published in the Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy, 2005.

It looks solid to me. Perhaps those who criticize the methods and measures can read and interpret the statistics themselves first.

I've read it Reine ,even brought it up here before I also believe in it but... The people that were studied were volunteers based on any degree of the spectrum that's were the study was flawed.. Even studies done today point out that flaw because very little was known about the spectrum..This is why T/F was separated from the TG umbrella because it is now considered a mental issue ..

[Michelle V]

I think it is super offensive to have people categorize our lifestyle as a fetish. I know I was born this way and have struggle with the psychological aspect if it all my life. FETISH! What a bunch of bull, just because some people can't relate to it or don't understand it doesn't mean it is a fetish, there are other societies that accept and respect our community, why can western society just learn to live with it, respect it and just let it be.

[LaraPeterson]

Really interesting replies Confucius--from solid research to rubbish. Have you considered where the sample was taken? Sweden is one of the most liberal, uninhibited nations on the planet. Been there, done that. They do stuff on the street that would blush a two-bit street siren.

If we drag out the old dictionary, we can certainly find some support for CDing being a fetish. Maybe it is for some people, but certainly not for others. Normality is relative in every locale. My granddad deep-fried and ate bulls nuts; I don't care for them, myself.

[Lucy_Bella]

These last two comments are the reason the research was flawed ( NOT CONDEMNING THOSE WHO POSTED OR THEIR BELIEFS).. Truth be known there are millions of Fetish dressers perhaps more of them than those with Gender Identity ,yet people refuse to believe in it because of their own spectrum and the values they hold dear to it.The actual number is next to impossible to know because so many are closeted ,they are most likely to not volunteer for such studies and rarely do they reach out for professional help..

[Tristessa]

Oh man, I teach Research Methods and Statistics. This study has so many problems I don't know where to begin. Executive summary: don't put a lot of stock in it. Nobody in the social sciences is, either.

Putting my researcher hat on - ignore me if this stuff bores you. Can't help being a girl or a geek!

The reason for this is that both the internal (causal) and external (generalizable) validity of this study are horrendous. This study's sampling strategy suffers from serious sampling and selection biases, based on their use of volunteers, their geographical specificity, and their sample size. This severely limits the generalizability of these findings to anyone outside of the sample. Also note that the independent variable, "transvestic fetishism", is operationalized in an extremely narrow way, limiting the "yes" respondents to only those who CD for sexual reasons. And, in fact, this definition still misses the DSM-IV-TR criteria for Transvestic Fetishism, because that diagnosis requires that the person be experiencing distress in relation to their CD behavior. What a mess!

Second, due to the associational design, nothing can be inferred as to the causal relationships between the variables under study. As has been noted, correlation does not equal causation. Just because two variables appear to be correlated, it doesn't mean a change in one causes change in the other. Their relationship, especially when the correlation is weak, is often mediated by one or more extraneous variables. My favorite example is the documented correlation between ice cream sales and crime rates - they are in fact moderately correlated, but there is no causal relationship between them. Their relationship is mediated by weather - both ice cream sales and crime go up during the summer. In the case of this study, I'd put money on the mediator variable being that, once a person has violated one social-sexual norm, it becomes just a bit easier to experiment with others. Not everyone will, but it's more likely. All this study says to me, therefore, is that social norms restrict our natural sexual expression until we liberate ourselves from the "fetish" label and discover what truly gets us off.

What I find more interesting about this study are the variables that were found to not be correlated. It shows that CD'ing is not limited to certain races, classes, ages, relationship statuses, etc. It also demonstrates that Swedes are more likely to CD if they live in urban areas than in rural ones, which makes some intuitive sense.

Anyway, the takeaway is to interpret with extreme caution. Your mileage will almost certainly vary.

T

[Lucy_Bella]

This severely limits the generalizability of these findings to anyone outside of the sample. Also note that the independent variable, "transvestic fetishism", is operationalized in an extremely narrow way, limiting the "yes" respondents to only those who CD for sexual reasons. And, in fact, this definition still misses the DSM-IV-TR criteria for Transvestic Fetishism, because that diagnosis requires that the person be experiencing distress in relation to their CD behavior. What a mess!

How it defines it DSM-IV TR is..The American Psychiatric Association (APA) lists transvestic fetishism in its latest revision of the manual for diagnosis of mental illnesses, the Diagnostic Manual of Mental Disorders-IV-TR (DSM-IV-TR), under the paraphilias along with pedophilia and piquerism, which is a form of criminal sexual sadism that involves stabbing or biting or cutting,

Now this is only the extreme ,the DSM-IV-TR also recognized "Fetish Dressing" as Transvestic Fetishism but only the extreme are under the Paraphilia..Paraphilia

A paraphilia is a condition in which a person’s sexual arousal and gratification is strongly linked to objects or persons outside the norm. Sometimes paraphilias are dangerous or illegal such as in the case of necrophilia or pedophilia, but this is not always the case. For example, there is foot fetishism and nasophilia, attraction to noses. Transvestic fetishism, the term applied to the act of cross-dressing for sexual pleasure, is such an example-a behavior which is neither explicitly dangerous nor illegal.



The fetish dresser is..Both within and outside of the mental health community there is a tremendous amount of debate about whether fetishistic cross-dressing can be classed as a mental disorder or considered a form of sexual deviance. The debate is fierce in part because of an alarming gender double standard: women wear stereotypically masculine garments every day with little consequence, and sometimes do so for sexual reasons, though this is not widely understood.

What is considered deviant is entirely socially prescribed as are the gender norms which govern a great deal of male and female behavior. In a culture which rewards men for masculinity and punishes them for attributes relegated solely to women, it is considered unacceptable and even disordered for men to dress in women’s garments, and especially to find sexual satisfaction from doing so. The very idea is aberrant insofar as it threatens to dismantle what is manly about men, even while there may be, in reality, no actual threat.

[Tristessa]

What is considered deviant is entirely socially prescribed as are the gender norms which govern a great deal of male and female behavior. In a culture which rewards men for masculinity and punishes them for attributes relegated solely to women, it is considered unacceptable and even disordered for men to dress in women’s garments, and especially to find sexual satisfaction from doing so. The very idea is aberrant insofar as it threatens to dismantle what is manly about men, even while there may be, in reality, no actual threat.

Yes, not a threat, and there is a substantial amount of research supporting the idea that men who are fluid in their gender role identity/expression are more adaptive and less likely to have negative mental health outcomes.

[Lucy_Bella]

Yes, not a threat, and there is a substantial amount of research supporting the idea that men who are fluid in their gender role identity/expression are more adaptive and less likely to have negative mental health outcomes.

I do believe in this but have to ask .. Biological or Social gender role? A person with G.I. does not have a Biological disorder in their gender role but can and may have a Social disorder in a gender role... To were a Fetish Dresser is capable to properly function with in both roles due to the non or minor gender issues as well as the protection of his/her Biological gender role in which the attraction of the fetish is opposite of..

I.E. It is a mental issue Fetish Dressing unlike being born gay that once was thought to be a mental issue..However having Gender Identity is in a sense Biological and not a mental issue when faced with society ... But the truth is people with G.I. although feel as if they were born in the wrong body, were meant to be born that way Biologically..

[weyburn]

Perhaps it is all backwards.Crossdressing,fetishes,homosexuality etc.have gone on in our world since the beginning of time but because a group of scholars or elected officials have said this is wrong or weird or deviant etc. it won't be the mainstream norm.The so called norm has reacted,rebelled,fought against etc. change or ,differences or ,so called abnormalities because it did not fit their thinking whether it be due to religion,race etc.so it must be wrong.Any society is made up of groups that bear different labels of which only some are considered correct.

[Tristessa]

I don't like the word "disorder", let's use "difference". I don't think either kind of difference is an "issue" unless it is causing problems - emotional, social, financial, occupational, etc. I think that it is very likely that both TG and non-TG CD'ing have both biological and social determinants, but perhaps in different proportions. "Both-and".

[Lucy_Bella]

I don't think either kind of difference is an "issue" unless it is causing problems - emotional, social, financial, occupational, etc..

Strongly agree... This is why the proper grouping or "labels" should be applied in these studies..

[Tristessa]

That's why I reacted to the study's operationalization of Transvestic Fetishism without mention of distress or impairment in functioning. This omission causes this study to overestimate the number of people who qualify for this diagnosis, and pathologizes those of us who relate positively to these differences in ourselves.

[Lucy_Bella]

I agree as well and I didn't point out that you were wrong in anyway but furthered your thoughts into the term" Transvestic Fetish"..

Studies can not be done with TG and none TG cding as a whole ..They are two completely different issues and the results will always be flawed .. Take this site as an example we are never 100 percent on most post ..

[Tristessa]

Didn't feel like you were contradicting me, I felt like we were building a good point together! This whole conversation highlights why quantitative research is extremely limited in what it can tell us about human behavior - we have to make arbitrary distinctions, look at phenomena in a grossly simplified way, in order to study it. I would love to see some good qualitative research conducted, I imagine it would be much more illuminating and true to our experiences.

[Marcelle]

Oh man, I teach Research Methods and Statistics. This study has so many problems I don't know where to begin. Executive summary: don't put a lot of stock in it. Nobody in the social sciences is, either.

Putting my researcher hat on - ignore me if this stuff bores you. Can't help being a girl or a geek!

Anyway, the takeaway is to interpret with extreme caution. Your mileage will almost certainly vary.

T

Being someone who sits on an ethics review board for social sciences research and has peer reviewed a multitude of papers for methodology. Having read this paper, I can say I agree with everything Tristessa is saying. The methodology is fine from "correlation perspective" but to link causation . . . that dog don't hunt. The authors do discuss limitations to the study (as they must) but they gloss over the pertinent points discussed by Tristessa.

Once again given enough data and a good sample, you can statistically prove anything . . . Did you know it is statistically possible for an elephant to hang over a cliff suspended by their tail tied to a daisy?

This has a been a great thread two things I love CDing and Stats.

Hugs

Isha

[ReineD]

Thanks for your analysis of the study, Tristessa. I've learned something. I'd love to get your thoughts on other research conducted that is not statistically flawed? There must be one or two large scale studies kicking around. My SO (who is also a researcher) had given me a hard copy of a large scale study some years ago that showed similar results to the Swedish study. I can no longer find it and neither I nor my SO remember its authors.

I think it is super offensive to have people categorize our lifestyle as a fetish. I know I was born this way and have struggle with the psychological aspect if it all my life. FETISH! What a bunch of bull,

There are indeed many CDers for whom it is not fetish (my SO is one of them) and this site is also populated with them, or at least they are beyond the stage when it might have been purely sexual, during their younger years.

But, I don't think this is the norm.

You only need google "crossdresser" and any other word linked with fetish such as "chat", "porn", "sex", "dating", "clothing", etc. You will be served millions of results that cater to the fetish side of the CDing, even the clothing sold specifically in CD online stores, not to mention the plethora of oversized boobs and other silicone female body parts, or the CD Flickr (and other sites) pages of suggestive pics. Gosh there are even sites that promise pics "free of raunchy pics, genitals, sex acts, sex toys, etc", as if these are the norm. I'm guessing that the majority of CDers out there would not like this site, since it might be too tame for them.

Also, have you ever wondered why there are about 6,000 current users (people who have logged in during the last three months) yet only a few hundred members post in discussion threads on a regular basis? I don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing that a lot of members sign up to have a look at the image gallery and not do much else here. Or, they join only to discover this site is not for them, I'm assuming because it is not sex oriented?

[Lucy_Bella]

I'm guessing that the majority of CDers out there would not like this site, since it might be too tame for them

Great point Reine but may I also add that a "Fetish Dresser" ( although sought to be a porn addict ) may not always be the case.. There are many that are and I can only speak for myself.. I'm not..

1. I do not find other Cders "sexually" attractive.I do NOT care to visit smut sites featuring Cders/********/Tranny's nor do I buy clothing made specifically for Cders ( if it says that it is I then refuse to buy it )..

2. Yes many may out grow "fetish" Dressing ..Or so they claim ,it's true many Fetish Dressers get their start at a young age ,perhaps puberty. During this time under garments give the "Visual Erotic Stimulation" that can grow and include other feminine " Visual " items,even scent can be added..This explains the dire need of mirrors .it's all visual..

3. Not only is it "Visual" it can be in the feeling of ( I do not mean feeling like ) enter "Erotic Erection" .. As we age ( perhaps blood pressure ) opposite of puberty .. Erections especially "Erotic" can be on going ..This doesn't always mean one walks around with a hard( on ) and for the sake of decency I will not elaborate.. But the feeling of certain material can be an "Erotic Fetish" perhaps another habit we picked up during puberty, nylon is a good example.. The feeling of the material against the skin..

I really appreciate your insights Reine ..You really have an addiction in your willing ness to learn more about the spectrum..

[Tristessa]

I'd love to get your thoughts on other research conducted that is not statistically flawed? There must be one or two large scale studies kicking around.

Every study has flaws. The very nature of research on human subjects requires us to make compromises that limit our ability to generalize results and infer causality. While a larger and more diverse sample would address the generalizability issue, no study with a correlational design is going to improve our ability to infer causal relationships between variables. In order to do that, we would have to be able to manipulate our independent variable (assign participants to groups), which we cannot logistically or ethically do with CD'ing.

A few quick scans of the publication databases I have access to didn't turn up any large-scale studies that were similar to this one. There are, however, a lot of case studies and qualitative research that I think are probably more valuable than anything a quantitative study could tell us. Some interesting findings that echo a lot of themes that we frequently see pop up around here. Much more "experience near", and importantly, much less pathologizing.

[ReineD]

Are any of the case studies you've found available for people who cannot access pub databases?

[Tristessa]

Using Google Scholar, I was able to find a few of them. Blanchard, R. (2010) "The DSM Diagnostic Criteria for Transvestic Fetishism" gives a good overview of the current state of thinking in the field. It makes an important shift towards redefining transvestitism as a behavior rather than a disorder, diagnosable cases being only those that cause the CD'er distress. I can't seem to find any of the more nuanced qualitative studies, tho.

[docrobbysherry]

My 2 cents:

Confucius? I did none of those things, or had them done to me, up until my 20's. Then, a few began creeping into my behavior. And, I experimented with more "fetishes" and things on your list as I grew older. Many after my ex and I separated. Culminating in me dressing at age 50. Just wait. They may come up later with u, too!

As a TF dresser, I can tell u it has NOTHING to do with gorilla suits or postmen. It has to do with seeing a hot woman in my mirror! And, like it or not? They r a lot of us here!

Finally, Reine? Being TF doesn't mean u can't experience a "normal" CD life. I often go out with others and have zero sexual thots or feelings while out. It's kinda like going out with guy friends and their SO's. Interestingly, I have no idea if any others in our T group r TF because we never discuss such things!