The nature of being femme (GGs also welcome)

[Amanda Roberts]

When you girls think about being femme, what do you think it means? Kind of the nature of it, I guess.

I've been rolling this idea around in my head for a few days, and these are some of my disorganized and disconnected thoughts.

I think that we can draw a distinction between sex and gender. Sex is what you have between your legs. Gender is something... less tangible. It affects how you think about and react to things. It affects how you view the environment around you day-in and day-out. It affects your style, your interests, your personality.

As I introspect on my personality, I can identify aspects of it that are masculine and aspects that are feminine. For example...

Masculine:
When confronted with a critical situation, my instinctual reaction is to identify the variables in the situation I have control over and try to mitigate the situation.
When confronted with a problem someone else is having, my instinctual reaction is to try to comfort them by helping them fix the problem.

Feminine:
I am a fairly sensitive person emotionally. I tend to empathize well with the feelings of others.
When socializing, I love to sit and chat and gossip with friends over coffee.

Those are just a couple of high-level things I thought of on each side and they certainly aren't perfect examples...but hopefully they give you an idea of what I'm getting at.

So I guess what my take-away on all this is (and I think others have had similar thoughts based on my reading here), is that there are people at different points on the scale of masculine to feminine and depending on where they are on that scale may make a big difference as to how they feel about their sex (as opposed to their gender).

You could have someone who is male (sex) and completely masculine (gender)
You could have someone who is male (sex) and completely feminine (gender)
You could have someone anywhere in between.

Of course the exact same thing would apply for GGs.

The funny thing is that - as so many have said - so much of this is imposed by societial norms! I imagine that there are many, many people out there (the majority, I would imagine) who would not fall strictly on one end or the other of the spectrum - but don't dare to do anything about it - and so they continue on just as they always have.

So this leaves me curious, where do you girls feel like you are on the Masculine to Feminine scale? And what are aspects of yourself you consider part of your feminine self and/or your masculine self?

For me, on a scale of -5 to 5 with -5 being completely masculine and 5 being completely feminine, I would put myself pretty close to a 0 - varying between a -1 and a 1 depending on the day. Some days I feel more masculine and some days I feel more feminine.

I don't have any interest in having SRS - I'm comfortable with myself as a male by sex. That said, I don't want to JUST be either my masculine self or Amanda (my feminine self). I want to be both.
Anything else is denying one part or the other of me exists, and that is just lying to myself.

[Beverley Sims]

To me it means presenting as a female.

[MatildaJ.]

I think it's dangerous to view fixing things as a masculine trait and empathy as a feminine trait.

[Amanda Roberts]

Jess, I'd love to hear you elaborate on that a bit.

Traditionally that's how those roles have been viewed.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious

~Amanda

[Dana3]

A definitive feminine trait (for lack of a better way of putting it) is
be "expressive " Women are allowed / permitted to be
be much much more expressive of theirselves in not just they wear, but
in how they live. A man will catch crap from others (both men and
women ~ but most men) by what they wear, drive, decorate their home.

I caught flak just for wearing a braided olive drab green survival
bracelet leftover from my Marine Corps, for wearing a pink MEN'S Polo shirt. For
using a unambiguous stab looking stainless steel cigarette case. The list goes on and on.

I like flowers, plants, houseplants, Home Interior, interior decorating, country, cottage style ~ homey type things.
I like cooking. I like women and not only most things wen "typically " like?
But are interested in! I like pastel colors and soft fabrics and scents. In short? Its not just women's clothes that I like?
I genuinely like any and all things a atypical women might like and enjoy.

But if you ad a man show the slightest interest in such? If your lucky?
People will only beat you up with. Bibles?

I don't believe there's anything necessarly wrong or to ashamed of wanting to
be, dress, or being expressive in personality or dress?

Because there's nothing wrong or anything to be ashamed, guilty about EXPRESSING feminity or being a woman.

[Amanda Roberts]

I like flowers, plants, houseplants, Home Interior, interior decorating, country, cottage style ~ homey type things.
snip
I don't believe there's anything necessarly wrong or to ashamed of wanting to
be, dress, or being expressive in personality or dress?
snip
Because there's nothing wrong or anything to be ashamed, guilty about EXPRESSING feminity or being a woman.

Dana, I totally agree on all counts.

I also take quite an interest in decor.

I've gotten weird looks from both roommates and office mates before when I went and got lamps/rugs/etc to decorate the home or office with because I thought it looked too drab, lol.

You're so right. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Hugs

~Amanda

[Kate Simmons]

Many of us here are full spectrum people in terms of feelings and emotions. There is no rigid fixture for either biological sex as far as likes and dislikes. This is what makes us all unique individuals. That being the case, how we present(as male or female) is a personal choice.

[Dana3]

Dana, I totally agree on all counts.

I also take quite an interest in decor.

I've gotten weird looks from both roommates and office mates before when I went and got lamps/rugs/etc to decorate the home or office with because I thought it looked too drab, lol.

You're so right. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Hugs

~Amanda

On my traveling throughout the world I've seen and witnessed young school age,, pre. Teen. And even young men who were nothing more than good or best friend ~ GASP!! Hold hands while walking.

In Western overly ultra hetroecntric ~ homophobic ~ religious culture / society? That alone will get you outcasted, shunned, beaten up, and in the eyes of more than just a few justifiably. KILLED!

[Candice Mae]

In the end I see it as just a generalization based of off society's ideal of what feminine is. Which I don't agree with, because in the seven billion people in the world we are all individuals.

Like what you want there is no feminine or masculine activities or hobbies, its just how society perceives them.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Amanda, It kinda sounds like you are trying to re-invent the wheel.
When I dress I try to look as best I can but I am always going to be a guy.

[Lorileah]

Jess, I'd love to hear you elaborate on that a bit.

Traditionally that's how those roles have been viewed.

Probably not a wise idea using "tradition" You do realize that most "traditional" roles are misogynistic right? One very good reason that the TGs need to start working toward our own equality, one that doesn't expect "us" to be anything but who we are. This type of question comes up a lot and it tends to try and reinforce stereotypes. Things like "How do women....." and "why are women always...." One would hope that we as a group would be a little more aware that what society says someone should be or do isn't the way it is.

You see it is thinking like this that holds some people back. Case in point, two men want to adopt a child (or one has a child and they live together) in the empathy as a female trait camp, that child won't get love or maternal care which we all know is BS. What about single men who have children?

My SIL is better at building and fixing than I would ever be.

When I think of being femme...well I don't I just think about being me. If that is femme, good, if not I don't really care

[Joanne f]

For me femininity portrays itself in one way ,movement and gestures , you can be big, small , attractive ugly,wearing old clothes or anything else if you have that soft flowing movement then you will be feminine if you have not then it does not matter what you are wearing you will not be feminine (just my opinion) it is something that flows out of you from within you , can you learn to be like it ,I hope so but you have to think of it as a one way street .

[MatildaJ.]

As several other posters have said, it's only our culture that tells us that men are good at some things and women are good at other things. Personally, I prefer if people leave words like "masculine" and "feminine" aside, and instead use more specific words:

- if you use soft, flowing movements then you are "graceful"
- if you take care of other people you are "nurturing"
- if you are good at clear thinking you are "logical"
- if you are rough and cruel you are "brutal"
- if you present a delicate, attractive appearance, you are "pretty"
- if you present a dignified, attractive appearance, you are "handsome"
- if you present a sexualized, attractive appearance, you are "sexy"

etc.

[sanderlay]

Interesting questions... but is there really an answer? It is clear to me that the sex of the person is only part of the puzzle. This puzzle has a rainbow of pieces that may fit different ways for each person.

When I try to define what some consider as feminine I also see what some consider as masculine. And I see both these traits in average individual women and men. So to me some of these traits, some are perhaps talents, are more socially derived at and or learned for perhaps another reason. So this side is just the result and not source.

What's more interesting to me are a person's feelings of self identity, their nature. This might be where our own gender identity lives. When your self identity leans toward, or identifies with, the feminine you may learn and do things that support this in your self identity. When your self identity leans toward, or identifies with, the masculine you may learn and do things that support this in your self identity. Some, like myself, do a combination of both the feminine and the masculine.

But with that said I don't think a person is only feminine or just masculine. I think our own self identity's are far more complex and unique than just two choices. And that we all find ways to support this in our own way, some very obvious and others nearly hidden. There is no simple explanation or just two choices.

I also believe that if you bring conflict into a person's feelings of self identity, their nature, and not allow them to be themselves you create problems, internal conflicts that must be resolved at some point or you create more problems.

[Amanda Roberts]

Very interesting and enlightening answers from everyone! I'm pretty new to this aspect of my self-identity so I'm still learning about it and exploring it.

Thank you so much for all the wonderful feedback and answers! Keep them coming

~Amanda

[Kelley]

Well said Jess

Kelley

[PaulaQ]

it's only our culture that tells us that men are good at some things and women are good at other things.

If it's only our culture, then why do people like me need physical medicine (hormone therapy, surgeries, etc.) to transition? Why can't I just crossdress, sashay around the room, and adopt other societal ideas of women, (or even the rather exaggerated image of the same that exist in so many men's minds)?

Although I think many of society's norms for masculine / feminine are pretty arbitrary, there does appear to be a need for them in our minds, and some of them are based on biological reality.

For example:

- if you present a delicate, attractive appearance, you are "pretty"
- if you present a dignified, attractive appearance, you are "handsome"

Testosterone vs. estrogen has a pretty profound effect on the appearance of your face. There are facial features that tend to develop under the influence of one over the other - these play a pretty profound role in identifying a masculine face vs. a feminine face. Similarly, testosterone tends to encourage the development of musculature. (I've lost quite a bit physical strength since I started HRT.) So I think there's a biological basis for stereotyping "physical size" and "physical strength" as masculine traits, and "petite", "delicate" as stereotypically feminine traits. Of course on an individual basis, this stuff flies out the window in many cases - for example, there are some tough, physically strong, masculine acting women in West Texas who'd kick my ass for using a word like "delicate" to describe them! (One of my dear lesbian friends was just shocked to discover that these seemingly butch women were NOT sisters at all, but perfectly straight.)

I think taking a brute force approach to problem solving, one involving power, tends to be a masculine solution method, while more subtle, negotiation based approaches tend to be more feminine.

I think women tend to communicate more than men, and are often in better touch with their emotions. (Again, big variations here, but there have been studies done where women, on average, communicate quite a bit more than men, although ironically the scientist who did some of this work was a guy who'd talk your ear off!) As for emotions - some of that is social (boys don't cry!) and I think some of it is hormonal, I don't get into crazy rages anymore, and I am generally in better touch with what I'm feeling, at least I think so. If nothing else, it's easier to cry now.

Men tend to be hierarchical - there's a pecking order, and the further up it you go, the more intense the competition is. Women tend to be more cooperative - but of course there can be some very strong and competitive women. I don't suspect they view competition in exactly the same way as men do, and I know the way men treat them is a source of GREAT frustration oftentimes. For men, it really is mostly one big long pissing contest. I can't imagine that there are too many women out there who don't view this behavior on the part of men as being pretty stupid a lot of the time.

Anyway, some of this stuff is real enough, but it's fairly subtle, and varies A LOT from person to person. Quite a bit of it is totally arbitrary and social (men's vs. women's speech patterns are almost entirely learned, for example), but we seem to need this differences in some ways.

That said, basing our entire social order on this stuff is utter and complete bullshit.

[MatildaJ.]

If it's only our culture, then why do people like me need physical medicine (hormone therapy, surgeries, etc.) to transition? Why can't I just crossdress, sashay around the room, and adopt other societal ideas of women, (or even the rather exaggerated image of the same that exist in so many men's minds)?

Men certainly should be allowed to crossdress, sashay around the room, and adopt whatever other aspects that our society has termed feminine.

But given the rigid gender divide in our society, some people don't want to be men-who-do-stereotypically-feminine-things; they feel they belong on the female side of the rigid gender divide. That's fine with me. I just don't want all of us here putting any effort into reinforcing that rigid gender binary and insisting that's the way it has to be because of Nature and Biology.

Men tend to be hierarchical - there's a pecking order, and the further up it you go, the more intense the competition is.

LOL. Humans are hierarchical, Paula. If you don't see women that way, just wait.

[PaulaQ]

But given the rigid gender divide in our society, some people don't want to be men-who-do-stereotypically-feminine-things; they feel they belong on the female side of the rigid gender divide. That's fine with me. I just don't want all of us here putting any effort into reinforcing that rigid gender binary and insisting that's the way it has to be because of Nature and Biology.

Well, I guess I'm saying it's some of both - sociology and biology. The radical feminists would like it if it's all learned behavior. And I think that's mostly the case. The problem is, differences seem to need to exist, some of them biological, and some of them behavioral. I'm getting a crash course in this stuff via the school of hard knocks. Believe me, if transitioning was just something "people felt like doing" - I wouldn't do it. I'm not especially thrilled at the concept of having a woman's brain in a man's body. If death wasn't a more attractive option than staying a man, I wouldn't transition. If there were a talk therapy, or a medicine to suppress this - I'd choose those options.

As best I can tell, what I'm going through is medical in nature and biological in origin. At the same time, I'm having to learn quite a lot of behavioral stuff. I get to find out how I'm doing every time I leave my home, and hear either "sir" or "ma'am".

Again though, I don't think that any of this is any way to organize a society. Even given the differences in our brains and bodies - we should all be treated equally.

[DebbieL]

Kinsey rated people's sexual preference from 1 to 6 with 1 being totally straight (including fantasies) and 6 being totally gay.
Harry Benjamin used a similar scale, 1 being an "Alpha Male" for men and a 6 being a transsexual who is likely to become suicidal or self-destructive if they don't transition.

Alpha males have very high degrees of testosterone, are highly aggressive, and very much like being in control of everything. The don't tolerate lack of respect and will fight when confronted or challenged. These are usually the men who will either become very aggressive with a loud low booming voice in the meeting, or will make very quiet and direct threats. This is common behavior among all mammals, with Alpha males taking control, becoming leaders, and bullying any who dare to challenge him. In some mammal groups, such as lions and wolves, a new Alpha male will kill the cubs of the previous Alpha. Many demand exclusive breeding rights over ALL of the women.

Within primates, there are Alpha males as well, but there are also Beta males, those who have accepted their lower status and submit to the Alpha. They often help raise the children, they engage in grooming, and because of their kindness to the other females, often get the chance to breed covertly.

Human evolution has lead to even more prominent roles for the Beta male. Beta males are often the intellectuals, scientists, engineers, bankers, and medical professionals. Early beta humans were probably the first witch doctors, healers, and herbalists. They could use their knowledge of herbs, poisons, and cures to make an abusive Alpha very sick, then heal him. Often these medicine men had been too small and weak to hunt, so they gathered with the women, yet still had the desire to be in control of their destiny.

Then there were the omega males. These were the "runt of the litter". Often, they survived by entertaining the rest of the pack or troupe. Careful observation has shown that Omega male wolves, apes, and humans often survive by clowning, entertaining, being almost absurdly subservient and submissive. In the theater, women's roles were often played by frail and skinny young men. Often singers were castrated at a very young age so they could portray women in the Opera. The infamous Don Giavanni was actually based on the true story of a Castrati who was also known as the greatest lover of his day, probably BECAUSE he didn't need to be satisfied sexually in the same way as most men.

Often, type 6 transsexuals are viewed as omega males, but much like Giovanni, they have their strengths as well. Many type 6 transsexuals absolutely hate being male, many have tried to mutilate themselves, crushing or otherwise damaging their testes. There are even cases where a type 6 transsexual has tried to castrate himself. Some have even gone to veterinarians to be castrated or gelded.

In the 1950s and 1960s, type 5 and type 6 transsexuals were often given electric-shock to "deprogram" them. Some were even tortured in "aversion therapy". Most needed the last resort, a Lobotomy. It was considered more medically acceptable to destroy a transsexual's brain than to remove his/her testicles.

Perhaps one of the reasons that there are so many beta and omega males is because so many Alpha males were killed off in the centuries of wars. Often, young Alpha boys would begin training as soldiers as soon as they could hold a wooden sword. They learned to attack, to perry, to hold the shield, and to inflict pain. This was easy when half the boys in town were beta or omega males and could easily be beaten. Fighting between Alphas was more fierce, but still not fatal. Unfortunately, once they were old enough to be chosen as soldiers, they were eager to go to war, and often eager to take the field among the ranks, often seeking the front line. Many only lasted seconds, others lasted a few minutes. The few who survived more than an hour had quickly lost their taste for hand-to-hand combat, and even those who survived the battle often gained rank, enabling them to choose a more strategic position, one less prone to risk. Of course, they would tell their tales of the hundreds that he killed on his worst day, being careful NOT to tell them how many of his friends and neighbors were being killed around him. After all, he needed troops who were eager to stand at the front line, so he would never have to do it again.

Meanwhile, the beta and omega boys usually kept their distance. Shooting arrows or slinging rocks. Some were so small and light they were only useful as messengers and couriers. This of course, gave them a keen insight into how battles were REALLY won, making it possible for them to advise generals as "Wizards" or "Wise men". Often, these wise men would also know poisons to make arrows more deadly, ways to use and accelerate fire, causing more damage. Many designed engines of war that they themselves could never have used, but could easily be used by a team of beta soldiers. Eventually we had deadly gas and germ warfare in world war 1 and atomic bombs in world war 2, and hydrogen bombs capable of killing every living person in a city the size of Tokyo or New York in just a few hours.

The result has been that Beta and Omega men have become more common, have bred, creating offspring who are more "feminine" than their Alpha counterparts.

By the same token, we have seen the emergence of women who are more violent and aggressive. In urban areas, many of the men have been taken off to jail, meaning that women have to protect themselves, their children, and their property. They are often more aggressive, more bossy, more violent, than their suburban sisters. These "Alpha Women" actually may have evolved in the western frontier of the United States. Often, women came over with their husbands and brothers to homestead. They had to cook, but they also had to help plow the fields, chop the wood, fetch the water, dig the well, and herd the animals. Often they were bigger and stronger than many of the men in the nearest large town near the railroad station. My great grandmother had thighs that were almost 30 inches around and pure muscle, and arms that were also large and muscular - from chopping wood and fetching water all those years. According to one story, she threw a man about 20 feet into a horse trough and told him that if he touched her again, his next landing wouldn't be so gentle.

These strong and powerful women, as well as the softer and gentler men, have blurred the lines between "masculine" and "feminine". This is probably a good thing. Imagine a city of 14 million people where all of the men were Alphas, violently attacking each other at the slightest provocation. Imagine all of those women being helpless and submissive to all those Alpha men, becoming widows and making their children orphans, depending on the next Alpha male who wanted them sexually. In some cities like San Francisco, there would be hundreds of minors and the only women in town were prostitutes. And even these women had to be ready to pull a derringer when the need arose.

[Dana3]

As several other posters have said, it's only our culture that tells us that men are good at some things and women are good at other things. Personally, I prefer if people leave words like "masculine" and "feminine" aside, and instead use more specific words:

- if you use soft, flowing movements then you are "graceful"
- if you take care of other people you are "nurturing"
- if you are good at clear thinking you are "logical"
- if you are rough and cruel you are "brutal"
- if you present a delicate, attractive appearance, you are "pretty"
- if you present a dignified, attractive appearance, you are "handsome"
- if you present a sexualized, attractive appearance, you are "sexy"

etc.

Very.good points Jess ~ I like what you wrote here Jess, ad s person? Individual can be all of these and more regardless of gender / sex type. IMHO its much more than strict and extreme gender roles ? Its the birth child of binary ~ hetroecentric / homophobic thinking that boils up from binary logic (not just this subject) in and all things

The most basic, primitive, juvenile, sophmoric forms of logic.

Missing in all this? Imter-sex individuals such as those born not with just an XX or XY chromosomes, with extra chromosomes.

[Lorileah]

Kinsey rated people's sexual preference from 1 to 6 with 1 being totally straight (including fantasies) and 6 being totally gay.

Of corse now that isn't used any longer. It was very primitive and naive but we needed a place to start

Harry Benjamin used a similar scale, 1 being an "Alpha Male" for men and a 6 being a transsexual who is likely to become suicidal or self-destructive if they don't transition.

and just shows why I think the Benjamin scale is BS. Why could not an "Alpha male" be a TS? Just because you are alpha doesn't make you a man.

Alpha males have very high degrees of testosterone, are highly aggressive, and very much like being in control of everything. The don't tolerate lack of respect and will fight when confronted or challenged.

CRAP I must be an alpha because trust me I am aggressive and I am in control and I will fight for what I think is right I know several GGs who fit that too. OK Let me just say that I think the whole Benjamin thing is BS No need to argue any of the other points. Out of date and no longer relevant. Even in animals this thinking is wrong. In lions the females run the pride. In wolves the leader is often an alpha female who runs the pack. edit: but maybe that is why TGs won't ever get to be on an equal playing field, because they are unwilling to stand up and fight. They just like being cast aside and treated like dirt.

I just don't want all of us here putting any effort into reinforcing that rigid gender binary and insisting that's the way it has to be because of Nature and Biology.

Perfect

LOL. Humans are hierarchical, Paula. If you don't see women that way, just wait.

perfect again

[Tracii G]

Its normal to have traits that are male and female its just some can't get their minds around the concept.
Trying to understand all this when you are just starting out can be a quite daunting task.
I got over trying to justify the hows and whys of it all and concentrate on the things that really matter to me and that apply to my situation.
I read Kinsey's material back in the 70's and I thought it was flaky and conjecture at best and nothing more than opinion.

[PaulaQ]

LOL. Humans are hierarchical, Paula. If you don't see women that way, just wait.

Well, what do I know? It doesn't really matter so much I guess. I'm near the very bottom of all possible human hierarchies anyway. I'm trans - and I'm nothing.

[MatildaJ.]

I'm trans - and I'm nothing.

Decent humans see it differently, Paula. More like this:

Even given the differences in our brains and bodies - we should all be treated equally.

The trick is figuring out how to spend most of our time with decent people.