Aggressive and protective

[mechamoose]

I have to explain and excuse my attitude tonight. I have my protective hackles up. I feel all kinds of things over those of us making apologies for who we feel we truly are.

Many of us started out in 'normal' relationships, and had the landscape shift under us, and then we work to try and understand how this change affected our families.

It *isn't* a failure. It *isn't* a weakness. We didn't lie. Things *changed*

We have been and can be honest partners. We have an extra challenge that most don't.

I hope you/we can find ways to integrate our selves into our 'standard' lives.

<3

- MM

[Joanne f]

Hello mechamoose,
it can be difficult at times as you say you know who you are but when you have a partner you really do not know how they will view it so it can become a strain on you , you see it as a simple thing they might not , it all depends on the degree of things and how people think personally .

[Beverley Sims]

Maybe I was lucky, the ground rules have never changed for me they may have shifted a little, not enough to notice though.

[PaulaQ]

I hope you/we can find ways to integrate our selves into our 'standard' lives.

Sometimes though, hon, who we really are is miles and miles away from who we presented to our spouse. At this point, I look at myself now, and sometimes shake my head and think "I never expected THIS about myself..." Sometimes there's just no integration possible.

[mechamoose]

Can you name a change that happened that you *did* expect?

To me, as an Asperger's Syndrome person, it is all about expectation management. 'Surprises' are hard for a lot of people to handle.

Talk. Talk again. Talk some more.

<3

- MM

[Marcelle]

Hi there,

I agree in principle that we can no more change what happened to us then we can stop the world from spinning and once we learn this about ourselves then we need to integrate it into our lives as best we can. Some of us come late to this. I hid/supressed my CDing tendencies for 24 years of marriage . . . Did I know? Yes, I suspected. Was I going to tell my wife? No, because it was a private part of me which did not interfere with here being (I did not begin dressing until last year . . . after I told her). However, once I realized supressing was causing severe emotional harm, not to mention my anger was destroying my marriage, I came clean. Did she accept? Yes and is very supportive to this day.

However, accepting ourselves and having others accept us are two different beasts. If you are going to tell anyone, SO or friends, you have to be prepared for the possibility they will tell you to "take a hike". In the same way I cannot stop being who I am, I have to respect those who cannot accept me for who I am because that is who they are.

Hugs

Isha

[mechamoose]

However, accepting ourselves and having others accept us are two different beasts. If you are going to tell anyone, SO or friends, you have to be prepared for the possibility they will tell you to "take a hike". In the same way I cannot stop being who I am, I have to respect those who cannot accept me for who I am because that is who they are.

You have to accept yourself before anyone else has a chance to do so.

If someone has a problem with me, Then *they* have a problem with *me*. If your friends don't accept you for you, then are they really your friends?

"To thine own self be true"

[PaulaQ]

Can you name a change that happened that you *did* expect?

Talk. Talk again. Talk some more.

<3

- MM

Nah, I'll be honest, a year ago I couldn't have imagined what my life would be like now. I'm a queer trans woman living in a place that used to scare the hell out of me, the gay district here. My transition is underway - I live as a woman now, I'm on HRT. I'm getting electrolysis. My social life is mostly spent around GLBT folks. There's more, but you'll have to PM me for that stuff.

My wife just isn't ready to hear what I'd say now. I don't even know if I'll see her at our divorce. It's just as well, she misses her husband, and I don't really look, sound, dress, or act like him anymore. She's pretty unlikely to like me much, even if I wasn't her husband in the past. I'm not the type of person she'd ever befriend.

I'm just too different now. Words won't help, not right now and probably not ever.

Some of us turn out to nice little straight girls who live relatively heteronormative lives - that would've been a bad surprise, but at least something she'd understand. (She wouldn't have wanted me to stay though in that case either.) I ain't that type of girl though.

Edit: on acceptance - I accept who and what I am. I expect I won't find everyone to be so accepting - I'm pretty far out there. I'm willing to lose people to be myself.

[Marcelle]

You have to accept yourself before anyone else has a chance to do so.

If someone has a problem with me, Then *they* have a problem with *me*. If your friends don't accept you for you, then are they really your friends?

"To thine own self be true"

I agree, you have to accept yourself first. If a friend does not accept me for who I am are they really my friend? That depends. If a wife accepts her husband's CD but never wants to see or hear about (DADT) she is still his wife. My older sister does not truly accept Isha but she is still my sister.

I have a very close friend who does not accept Isha. He is coming around and accepts (in theory) that I do what I do but he does not approve at all. We talk professionally, interact but we don't do our old guy things anymore. He is still my friend as I am not willing to give up on him. Now if a friend yells "pervert, freak" then without hesitation I would throw that person to the wolves.

It is not always black and white when it comes to acceptance IMHO.

Hugs

Isha

[mechamoose]

I expect I won't find everyone to be so accepting - I'm pretty far out there. I'm willing to lose people to be myself.

...and there is the crux of it. What are you willing to lose in order to be yourself?

I will say that I'm surprised at how LGBT issues are *not* more in the forefront here. I know that most CD'ers are straight, but we are challenging gender norms. We should have more obvious links.

To quote a friend:
"I'm more of a man that you will ever be, and more of a woman than you will ever have!"

If a wife accepts her husband's CD but never wants to see or hear about (DADT) she is still his wife.

'Wife'. That is a family/role assignment. It has nothing to do with who the members of that family are.

You are partners... you promised yourselves to each other. You promised to help each other, to protect each other. "In sickness and in health".

I don't see how gender presentation changes those promises. You are still *you*, right?

[Marcelle]

You are preaching to the converted when it comes to acceptance from your SO. I told my wife after 24 years. I did not see myself as lying as I did not even understand what was going on. She accepted and is supportive.

However, you have to admit for some wives it might be a "bridge too far" to learn your husband wants to wear your clothes and promises past may not be enough. We cannot fault them for that as that is who they are just as they cannot fault us for who we are.

The cold hard reality of this thing we do is . . . I can accept myself for who I am (and I have), others (my wife included) can accept me for who I am, while others (my older sister) can tolerate who I am while others still most likely despise who I am. That is human nature and we cannot change it. For some of us, SOs may fall into the any of those categories (including despise).

Hugs

Isha

[Erica Marie]

Im not sure exactly how to answer this but Im going to give it a whirl.

As far as the word "excuses" that may not be the right term but for a lack of a better one lets go with that. For many here I dont think the landscape shifted but lets say tilted just a bit more than it was. I feel the majority here had gone into a relationship knowing full well that they were a crossdresser but not knowing to what extent. Maybe some thought it would just go away, maybe some where hoping for acceptance, and some here are still hiding it. For those who truly and honestly had a change happen that was unexpected then I understand. Thats where the "till death do us part comes in", but for any of us INCLUDING MYSELF, who go into a relationship knowing, and if something happens down the road. Then there is no room for excuses, sure we could hope we are accepted by our s/o but if not can we blame them. Sure we are still the same person in our eyes, but in their eyes we changed. Some will be accepted and some wont. All we can do is hope. For me I vow to never start another relationship without being upfront about it. I been through enough that it is not fair to the other person nor is it fair to ourselves.
Sorry if this sounds like a rant but, we all learn that honesty will always be the best policy.

[Katey888]

MM - you might have to explain but I don't think you should feel the need to excuse how you feel (but it is a nice type of old-fashioned politeness to do so... )

I agree with what you say about the LGBT connection - but I can also understand how the 'T' of that is both a bit of an adjunct (and a more complex one in many ways) and within the CD/TG/TS span there is a huge variation in behaviour, needs, perspective, lifestyle, impact... It's not a simple issue at all and very few people really understand it even a little, including a lot of us directly affected by it...

I'm sure this is familiar to others, but there are days when I can't accept myself and what I do - what I want to do, what I know I feel good doing... And those days hurt - those days remind me why I have not revealed this condition to anyone who knows me 'sans-girl'... (that's all of you excluded, obviously..) On the other hand, just being exposed to these feelings I think has made me a more accepting individual myself... But that's probably not a 'normal' person reaction to 'T' conditions... and therein lies the problem with the 99% of muggles...

Patience and harmony...

Katey x

[mechamoose]

I'm sure this is familiar to others, but there are days when I can't accept myself and what I do - what I want to do, what I know I feel good doing... And those days hurt

Are those days ones where you are thinking about the perceptions of others?

How much of our baggage is due to thinking about the acceptance of others, rather than acceptance of ourselves?

<3

- MM

[Katey888]

It's not entirely about me - it certainly shifts... probably 70:30 others:me - so yes, predominantly others - but that's trying to change the habit of a lifetime..

Rationally, I understand that this is about self-acceptance... but I think I'm still processing what I've come to understand about myself only in the past 6-8 months or so - before that, this was something that was more partitioned for me and something that I actively supressed... I admit it! I did supress it deliberately but because - perversely - I thought it was the right thing to do... I was an addict with a controllable habit, that's the way I see it looking back - but now I understand that this is so much more than that - that there was so much more of me that was supressed and repressed and - like Isha - probably led to stress and anger sometimes, and that feeling still comes back sometimes which is why I think I'm still coming to terms with it. It's not as easy as just understanding how to... bake a cake or something... it's a fair bit deeper and puzzling. It offends my sense of the logical and rational and attracts my rebellious, alternative and creative nature all at the same time... AAAARRRGGGHH!!

Half the time I'm glad I found this place and the other half - well, ignorance is bliss isn't it...?

Must go and do something normal now.... Katey x

[mechamoose]

t offends my sense of the logical and rational and attracts my rebellious, alternative and creative nature all at the same time... AAAARRRGGGHH!!

You are on the right track, hon.

You are who you are. Don't be sorry for it!

Find a way to be you without being a burden. Don't feel like you have to apologize for being pretty.

<3

-MM

[sometimes_miss]

You are partners... you promised yourselves to each other. You promised to help each other, to protect each other. "In sickness and in health".

I don't see how gender presentation changes those promises. You are still *you*, right?

The vast majority of women will feel that they were 'lied to' about who we were when we got married, and use that justification for being angry. Our attraction to another, and also love, is based on what we know of them, not on who they actually are. When you toss in something that really changes who we see out partner to be, whether that be that they're a seriel killer, a wife beater, or god forbid A CROSSDRESSER!, well that changes completely how she will feel about you. The attraction is gone, the feeling that they can trust you is gone, and then the love is also gone.
And then the marriage is over. Women feel that they married someone in particular. When you are 'no longer that person', and in fact, never were as she sees it, she has in her mind all the justification she needs to want a divorce. And once the anger sets in about 'being fooled about who he is', we're screwed, too.

[mechamoose]

I get that.

Women feel that they married someone in particular. When you are 'no longer that person', and in fact, never were as she sees it, she has in her mind all the justification she needs to want a divorce. And once the anger sets in about 'being fooled about who he is', we're screwed, too.

Intent.

It isn't that you did changed on purpose. Right?

"Blame" and "responsibility" are not the same thing.

I'm not saying that we are blameless, I'm saying that it wasn't our intention.

If the marriage can survive, it is because we can talk. We can share our needs.. without all the baggage. "I'm still that person you fell in love with".

That can be true, even when you are showing Her instead on Him.

She just needs to understand how that fits.

You can be everything she wants and still wear a skirt. She just needs to know that you are the same cool person you have always been. Give her things she can hang on to, like your dedication and commitment. Focus on that, and the pink fog won't be as threatening.

<3

- MM

[MsVal]

I kinda agree with you Mechamoose, I kinda don't.
Yes, things have a way of changing. They always have and always will.

We can anticipate and plan for many changes. Anticipating the following November, we plan to buy reduced price winter clothing in February. We save for retirement. We put plans in place for unanticipated changes when we buy insurance.

When we enter into marriage and speak the vows, we have only a vague idealistic idea of the changes that may come in the following years. Things like handling a disagreement on where to buy a house, handling a job loss, or a serious illness may come to mind.

Some changes don't come to mind. The discovery that a spouse has drained the finances through gambling losses, the spouse has sexually abused your child, the spouse has been living a separate, secret life as a woman, or the spouse has a secret, same-sex lover. (no, they are not equivalent, but exemplary)

Those are seismic changes that challenge even the strongest marriages.

As for other relatives and friends, I think I agree. There is no covenant, no vow, only a vague set of expectations. Their lives are not so intimately intertwined that it would require divorce attorneys to sort through the pieces in a breakup.

By definition (mine, anyhow) the truest of friends will care as much about each other's feelings as their own. These are the ones I would expect to be most likely to handle seismic changes, and perhaps handle them better than a spouse who's life is intertwined.

Best wishes
MsVal

[samantha rogers]

Wow...that hits it on the head in my case. Since having "the talk" back in January, she has wrestled with exactly those feelings..."I lied to her", "I am not the man she married", "no longer attracted to me" and so on. And this after nearly twenty five years together.
Granted, she has not walked away, but has also not ruled our doing so in the future.
And, to her credit, we are still good friends, there is still love there, and in most ways life goes on as usual. And she is trying to understand, though she wants nothing to do with Samantha, or anything to do with counselors, other SOs of TGs, or any kind of support groups.
And coupled with this is the fact that kids and financial factors certainly make staying together far more practical than any other course, from both of our points of view.
But it does raise the question which haunts me as well as her, whether a marriage remaining in place merely for comfort and security but without passion, is better than no marriage but the prospect of something better now possible however unlikely at our age that may be.
Day by day.

[PaulaQ]

...and there is the crux of it. What are you willing to lose in order to be yourself?

Everything.

I will say that I'm surprised at how LGBT issues are *not* more in the forefront here. I know that most CD'ers are straight, but we are challenging gender norms. We should have more obvious links.

I agree. There is a fair amount of homophobia and even in some rare cases transphobia here. It's kind of sad - we need all the allies we can get... (In all fairness, there are some trans women who aren't very accepting of CDs either - this makes me so sad, and so angry, when I see it. I stand up to it whenever I see it.)

[Sandra]

You are partners... you promised yourselves to each other. You promised to help each other, to protect each other. "In sickness and in health".

I don't see how gender presentation changes those promises. You are still *you*, right?

It goes a lot deeper than that they find out after years of marriage that their man like to do this and has kept it from them, couldn't trust them enough to say something about it all. In some cases it's not the fact that the man cds but the fact that he spends all the spare money on it, and yes in some case money has been used that is for everyday house keeping, and when the wife does know then most men think it's a green light to do what they want all the time without even thinking about the wife and how she is feeling. The wife tries to explain how she feels then she gets thrown at her "oh your not supporting" doesn't matter that the man hasn't bothered to listen to how she is feeling. So it runs a lot deeper than You are still *you*, yes it is a part of who they are but there is so much more.

[Lorileah]

I had a high ideal of what love was. You get married for LOVE right? And love stands by you no matter what. I still like to believe that and it did work in my case but I see a lot here that argues against it. The thought has been broached about not expecting changes after marriage but honestly if people told the truth both partners look at things and say "Hey I can put up with that now but I will change it later". Idealistically when you marry, the world is perfect. We know that isn't true. However, and this is one thing I hope to accomplish here, we as TGs have the ability to lessen the trauma of funding out that the man they married isn't he man they married. I would say you should tell before the vows. That is the best because the equity is low. But we know that the majority here don't for a myriad of reasons. Still early is better. But back to love. In my mind if you really love someone you will work to keep that person in your life, two way street that too. I still believe that love don't leave. I am romantic that way. But IMO a lot of today's marriages aren't about love. They are about getting something, maybe comfort, maybe protection, maybe normalcy. When I read about a woman who is adamant about her husband CDing I always question, maybe wrongly, if she ever really loved him. When I read that a woman i willing to listen and not rush to judgement I know she loved (loves) him. When two people agree to work through it and make adjustments for each other, that to me is love. I was lucky (I know some of you are saying Oh no not again) because I think I found that type of love twice in my life. Neither ever threatened to leave over the stupid silly things I probably did. We worked them out and compromised. I know people who are like that, who have weathered the storm and came out stronger, who loved the partner no matter what. 27 years for me (actually 30 years total). The woman was a saint because I didn't like ME how could she? But both were advised of my desires early on and both accepted them in their own way. I cannot imagine what either would have done if I was later. MF would I think have embraced it. My wife would have put it in a DADT...I think.

So the long and winded point I was trying to make is "Yes you are the same person inside" but hat is hard to see when you have worked hard to be subversive and untrusting. I know it isn't done intentionally for the most part. "We" hide and sneak because we are told we have to. But now, those who are on here can see that it isn't true. So "we" have to get over our own demons first. If we can do that, then the chances of a lasting relationship IMO is higher. Remember equity.

[Tracii G]

Sandra make a good point...............................I'll back away from the podium now.

[PaulaQ]

I still believe that love don't leave. I am romantic that way.

I simply can't believe this anymore. I will tell anyone who I love in the future that I don't own them. They don't own me. They are free, as am I. If they want to be with me, I want them. If they don't, or they need to leave to really be who they need to be, I'll never stand in their way, much though it may hurt for a time.

I don't believe in unconditional love anymore. I've never experienced it. I don't think it exists. I fully expect to be abandoned when I become inconvenient to love - if my health deteriorates, I fall into hard times, I get old, or even boring. I'll be alone.

I don't see any point in pretending this isn't true - I've never seen anything else, except for horrible codependence that keeps people together who make each other miserable.

I'm simply not even going to pretend - I'll ask my lovers to be honest with me - if they want to leave, just say so. If they want to be with another sometimes - just talk to me about it first. Everything is negotiable except the promise of permanence. No one should put such conditions on an inherently unpredictable future. No vows to shatter, no promises to break. Just whatever we have right now.

For me, love is a prison. I give and give and give - and get so little in return. Frozen in time, the perfect image of what they need, regardless of my needs. And they love me - oh yes they do - at least until I've given all I have. Then they are through with me. And somehow, complicit in all this, I feel I turn otherwise functional people into dysfunctional and dependent blobs. I feel horribly guilty about that - why would I want to do that to another person again? I DON'T wan to hurt anyone else.

I see no point in pretending it's otherwise. It's all I've ever known.

I'm weeping now, so I guess I'll end here. I wish I still believed in love. I just can't anymore.