Aggressive and protective

[samantha rogers]

Oh, Paula, honey, I just want to reach out and hug you. I can see you have gotten a bum hand, and I so appreciate and empathize. I can't really do anything to help other than to offer that you are not alone, that there are many others also suffering, and that despite appearances, if you allow it, life has a way of surprising us when we least expect it. Don't stop hoping, honey.
Big hugs.

[Katey888]

Samantha - those are caring and generous sentiments towards Paula - I feel the same way... Don't give up hope Paula - if you keep hoping and trying you never know what may change for you...

I used to be idealistic about love in relationships but not anymore - most folk I know may marry for lust or infatuation as much as love, and just as many for a whole host of other, much less aspirational and affectionate reasons like economics, image and sometimes just procreation! The only commonplace unconditional love is the one you find from a parent to a child... rarely in regular relationships, in my experience...

I think every relationship is different: different personality dynamics, different pressures, backgrounds, aspirations... all these factor into how partners respond... Lexi conveyed a good explanation of how this can misfire with completely rational, reasonable expectations on both sides and MsVal too has hit some important points on how partnerships modify over time. What I struggle with is the sometimes feeling that I absolutely should apologise for being the way that I am - and often wishing that I wasn't... Those seem like insurmountable barriers to self-acceptance sometimes...

I've come back to this again and I'm sure I shouldn't have - I know I'm overthinking it now and I need to go do normal again! Sorry to be blathering...

Katey x

[samantha rogers]

I think the mistake so many people make is in believing that love is simply an emotional response or feeling...such as one might say "I love my car". But it isn't. Real love...at least I refuse to stop believing this...is that same emotion but so much more. It is more importantly a verb. Love is an action. It is how, if we are truly honest, we act toward those for whom we have that emotion. " I love" means taking action to help the person you love. Which is why saying you love your car or a new dress, or whatever, demeans the real thing. By this definition you can truly love only another person (alright...maybe an animal,too...I do love my dog...tee hee). And truly loving them means putting their best interest ahead of your own, even if that means losing them...at least, that is how I see it.
Then again, I also know that over time people change and needs and desires change, and sometimes the love that brought you together fades and fails. Sometimes for both, but sometimes, sadly, just for one.
But I cannot help but believe also, that that kind of fade does not or should not occur with the click of a switch. I choose to believe that real love will withstand an admission along the lines of crossdressing. But only if that love is real and mutual. And if it cannot, then what kind of poor excuse for love was it to begin with?
Sometimes, I think...a marriage that ends because of cd'ing was doomed anyway, or at least a pale substitute for what a real, loving partnership can and should be.
But what do I know? Thats just what I believe, I guess.
I hope all of you are lucky enough to experiece that kind of real love. It does exist.
Hugs

[Jaylyn]

I have sat and read all this. I feel I did marry for love. I know some don't believe this but I did find my soul mate. When we married some 43 years ago and I knew I liked dressing up in my moms things then. I did not show my wife that part of me at that time. We told each other in our vows for better or worse. We have had better and we have had worse. We are not the same teenagers we were when we married. At that time we were part of a generation that believed in free love and loud rock music. We wore the traditional garb, bell bottom pants and she wore puffed up ratted hair. I actually had hair that matched somewhat a Elvis cut he had then. Have we changed ...yes. Have we accepted that change would happen... Yes Do we still love each other 100% .... Yes Do we fuss and fight.... Yes, but we did agree not to hurt each other's feelings and that no secrets ( except birthdays n presents ) would be held privately. We have experienced about every thing life can throw at us. We have lost a grandchild, we have weathered four great children who are all successful. Not one divorce yet. The youngest is 38 and has been married since he was 21. All college educated, all with kids of their own. We had to have done something right or these things would not have happened. We believe in education and free thinking. We believed also that to spare a child from being disciplined is to not love that child. None of them, or my wife and I even know a counselor. Everything we did was passed on to us from our parents, God fearing, country values, people caring and having a concern for your neighbor parents. Maybe we have been living with those rose colored glasses on but I'll be dang if it hasn't worked for us. We both are nearing our golden years as some call it. The years of the retirements, Medicare, and maybe one day facing the fact that one of us might die. I can truthfully say we have worked hard to build our marriage to not fail. We believe in things working for the better. We don't let ourselves nor the kids ever talk negative about anyone or anything, rather to always say something positive or keep your mouth shut. We are still as much soul mates as we were when we met that day. We tell each other good morning with a kiss and a hug daily. Our philosophy has and always will be " Its you and me against the world baby". She accepted me when I started dressing, I accepted her when she was started wrinkling and getting older. We both fight for holding on to our youth daily by exercise, eating right, hard work and always paying our way, and loving others as ourselves. I believe you can find that in the good book. We are different but we are the same. I know I ramble but just wanted to say what has worked for us. We believe unconditional love does exist.

[Momarie]

That was lovely Jaylyn and very honest.
An inspiration to me.
My best to you, your wife and family.

So many of these kind of threads seem to ultimately lay the blame with the woman/wife, if in a veiled disingenuous way.
There's this undercurrent of what we failed to do/accept/support.
Whatever pain, hurt or confusion this caused us couldn't possibly compare and therefore is barely acknowledged and seemingly dismissed.

[samantha rogers]

Momarie - I suppose I should have written what I did more carefully and foreseen my words would be misinterpreted. I apologize. It was not my intention to lay blame upon the woman in a failing relationship, anymore than upon the male.
I speak of real love in a general sense, and with full awareness that every case is different, and that failure comes from many places. There is often plenty of blame to go around.
I speak with a degree of personal sadness based upon my own relationship, as any of us would, I expect. I love my own wife deeply and always have. I have made great sacrifices over the years, both in career and personally, in order to honor that love, and provide for her a home with safety and security and love. I made a vow to do so and have willingly done whatever was needed. It was my honor to do so. I would literally go to the wall for her. This despite the hardship which "issues" of hers, which she refuses to acknowledge or confront, have caused in our relationship, and within our family. And the only area in which I have ever deceived her was in relation to my own GID, a factor I was unable to understand or deal with honestly and effectively, despite trying with every fiber of my being, right up until the moment when I turned to her for understanding and help.
My wife was diagnosed with a chronic disease many years ago. As a result, many choices have been made at great cost to me and our family, in order to ensure her well being. I have never begrudged this or felt bitterness in the slightest. It was not her fault, and it was my honor and responsibility to care for her. I did so gladly. I could not, in my wildest moments of selfishness, have ever considered any other action.
But in much the same way, I consider my GID as something for which I bear no more responsibility than she does her illness. Now that I need her, as she has needed me, I find she is wavering. I hope it may be understood, that while I certainly understand her shock and pain, I am myself pained to discover that the support I had hoped for in my need is not there as mine was for her in hers.
Beyond this, I now discover that my wife has for several years been corresponding secretly with an old lover from before our marriage. She states that they only do so as friends, and she may well believe that, but in retrospect, I can recognize that her behavior both toward me and in other ways, began to change around the same time this "relationship" resumed. But I take her at her word, and do not complain because that is how I view love. If corresponding with him is something she needs to be happy I do not begrudge that either.
I will never leave her. My love and my vows were real and are real. If the marriage fails it will be because she decides to leave me. And if that happens, I will allow her to go, knowing it is what she feels she needs in order to be happy. And, I will be happy for her, and rooting for her to succeed. But I am, as I said, wistfully sad, knowing that the love I have born for her all of these years is, apparently, and at least at this moment, not returned to the same degree.

But there is a broader sense at work here. When I spoke of true love being enough to withstand a shock, I understand that it may have seemed I was being cavalier and resentful. I was not. If a marriage really is solid, free of other problems, and based on that real love of which I speak, and equally from both sides... well... I am enough of an optimist and a romantic to believe it can withstand almost any shock. If it cannot, whether that shock be a crossdressing husband or a cheating wife, or any of a thousand other things, then it is not the shock that killed the marriage.

PS - Sorry to have taken this thread so far off track here. Mea Culpa.

[PaulaQ]

A brief question:

What's the difference between the breakup of a marriage between a trans* and their spouse, and a parent who rejects their trans* child, throwing them out on the street, or shunning them if they are adults?

Both of these things happen quite frequently to trans*. My conclusion is that love means something different for trans*, and that we aren't viewed as being very desirable human beings because we are trans*, but perhaps there is some other explanation I haven't thought of.

[Michelle789]

I agree. There is a fair amount of homophobia and even in some rare cases transphobia here. It's kind of sad - we need all the allies we can get... (In all fairness, there are some trans women who aren't very accepting of CDs either - this makes me so sad, and so angry, when I see it. I stand up to it whenever I see it.)

This is very sad. This is why I keep giving positive thinking rants, and why spiritual principles are good for us. I find it's people who are more spiritually grounded (not necessarily religious or churchgoing) who tend to be more accepting. Doom and gloom people are usually phobic of just about anything, while positive thinkers are more open-minded.

[PaulaQ]

Doom and gloom people are usually phobic of just about anything, while positive thinkers are more open-minded.

I don't know if it's even phobic. In another thread, someone pointed out hilariously that people - both men and women, and hierarchical and competitive. And that's true - despite a rather silly statement I made about it.

The operating principle for most of the world is simply this:

"Some people are more valuable than others"

Look around the world - there are myriad examples of this. Our country was founded, in part, on this principle. Trans* are simply very low on the hierarchy almost everywhere. So much of the world has no problem with treating us like garbage - because from their perspective, we literally are human garbage.

[donnalee]

I believe love is a learned behavior, marriage is an economic contract above all and only lust is instantaneous. I mean no disrespect to those that chose to do so; we didn't and were together for 43 years. She had been through a bad marriage; I had a fiance who dumped me (not her fault; she had her own reasons and they were good ones). We met and found ourselves mutually attracted. We decided on a relationship without marriage; she kept her stuff, I did the same and we were there because we wanted to be. It took about 5 years before we realized we loved each other, during which there were separations, some lengthy. We were each free to have private information (the tell each other everything idea is highly overrated; it's either TMI or coercion); we respected each other's privacy.

[renees]

Maybe "lied to" is too strong and not the proper wording. "Not trustworthy" might be more fitting. Even though I became aware of my SO's CDressing only a few months into our relationship and not years in, I still felt a bit hurt. The person who professed to be in love with me didn't feel they could trust me with what was obviously an important part of themself. I understand there must have been a great deal of uncertainty going on in my SO's mind (my reaction, what this might mean for our relationship) but I wish (s)he would have given me the benefit of the doubt knowing my love for her/him.

We are, after all, only human, and not always in complete control of our feelings or how we react.

[mechamoose]

I will say that I am blown away by the level of responses this thread generated. I was all full of piss and vinegar when I started it, but I had no idea what kind of a nerve I was striking.

It's been really good to read.

(Special hug for Paula)

[CynthiaD]

I think that everyone has a right to be judged on the content of their character rather than their choice of clothing. If you treat others with respect, why shouldn't you expect the same thing in return?

[PaulaQ]

I understand there must have been a great deal of uncertainty going on in my SO's mind (my reaction, what this might mean for our relationship) but I wish (s)he would have given me the benefit of the doubt knowing my love for her/him.

There are several reasons we do this:
1. Society can be EXTREMELY hostile to us: (example)
Transvestite Teaches Elementary Students In Lumberton ISD

2. Many of us don't want to admit it to ourselves, denying this is a part of us for a long time.

3. It's hard not to absorb society's messages - how would YOU go about telling someone you dated: "Hey, date me, but I'm DEEPLY FLAWED?" CDs aren't deeply flawed, but it's how so many feel. How do you even start that conversation?

I'm not trying to rationalize your SO's behavior, just explain possible motivations. Telling you a few months in might have been the soonest she could really trust you. Would you have given your SO your bank account numbers after a few dates? Because being outed as a CD could be just as destructive to her depending on her profession and situation. How would she know you wouldn't do such a thing, reacting in disgust and revulsion?

[renees]

I'm sure that was the soonest my SO felt safe enough in telling me. The feeling of not being trusted was my initial, gut reaction. From the get go of our relationship I had openly discussed my views on sexuality and my thoughts and views that people should explore and embrace who they are and could be. I had shared with him/her that I had known I was bi-sexual since I was thirteen and how awkward I had felt and had been ridiculed (it wasn't as acceptable as it seems to be now), but had finally, in my thirties, come to the conclusion that this was me and others could take me or leave me. I'm sure it was naive on my part, but at the time I felt these discussions would have allowed my SO to see me as someone who would be accepting.

I love my SO dearly, (s)he means everything to me and knows I accept her completely.

[mechamoose]

II had shared with him/her that I had known I was bi-sexual since I was thirteen and how awkward I had felt and had been ridiculed (it wasn't as acceptable as it seems to be now), but had finally, in my thirties, come to the conclusion that this was me and others could take me or leave me.

Points for deliberate ambiguity on Hir gender.

If someone has a problem with me, then *they* have a problem with *me*. **I** don't have a problem, THEY do.

I love my SO dearly, (s)he means everything to me and knows I accept her completely.

To me, it is about communication. You HATE doing laundry but will suck up doing dishes? Talk!

You HATE the leftover shaving bits on the sink but accept panties hanging in the shower? Talk!

I have a wonderful girl who accepts me for who I am, and *encourages* me to express myself (and I do the same in return).

Talk. Talk again. Talk some more.

<3

- MM

[PaulaQ]

I'm sure that was the soonest my SO felt safe enough in telling me. The feeling of not being trusted was my initial, gut reaction.

I'm so sorry you experienced that, particularly when you'd come out yourself, first, and coming out as bisexual is a big deal - y'all don't have it easy either. And in fact, your SO really ought to have seen that you'd be accepting, bisexual women tend to be. She may not have known that though, as most straight people don't know a whole lot about bisexuality.

All I can really say is she must not have been ready to come out yet. Perhaps this was the first time she'd ever come out - that's usually the hardest one.

I think you were very brave to come out early in the relationship - I really mean that. You obviously have reached a point of self-acceptance that is so hard for so many.

[Angie G]

It was a bit difficult coming out to my wife witch is the only one that knows Angie. I know it was difficult for her but she knows where it comes from and accepts me for who I am. And she gets her man when she needs him.
Angie

[devida]

Well, it's a real glitch in most people that we don't understand and accept that change is the natural order of things, that nothing remains the same, that everything and everybody changes. It actually doesn't matter if you are trans, gay, bi, or anything else, what the actuality of life is that everything and everyone changes. We try really hard to believe the delusion that things remain the same, but they don't, because we are living beings, not the statues of our ideas. It would probably be better if we could all grow up and accept this basic fact of life, but we don't. And I guess we have to have compassion and kindness that our minds are structured so we and everyone else imagines we can stay frozen in some ideal place in which what we said at some distant time in the past is true eternally. I'm not the man I was when I was 19, when I married my first wife, or 36 when I married my second. I am not even a man any more. I'm lucky that I have a companion who understands that we all do change and that change is what life is all about and isn't hauling around some ridiculous ideal of what her husband should be from half baked ideas from her early conditioning. I am truly sorry and have a great deal of sympathy for anyone who has bought into this very common human delusion. But I won't and can't live my life lying about who I am right now. I won't live according to the expectations of others. It's simply too difficult. I have enough of a job recognizing that I can't even live according to the absurd expectations I have of myself! Self acceptance means accepting the person I am this very moment, not some idea of who I think I should be, would like to be or kid myself I am. This is by no means easy because we do, or at least, I do change all the time. I can fool myself that I know who I'll be in a month or next year, but I'll still be a fool for believing it.

[Helen_Highwater]

This is a thread that resonants with me. Before I married did I know that I was CD? Answer no. Why, because I didn't understand what it was that I was experiencing.
I didn't enter the relationship knowingly living a lie. However years later as I became to partly understand the person I am it left me in the position of loosing that which I hold dear while still being ignorant of exactly to what extent my CD'ing was a driver in my day to day life.
So it is this that stoped me telling all to my SO.
I am still the "man" she married and as long as I can accommodate both my alterego and husband without conflict then I will do so without feelings of terrible guilt. It's not perfect but good enough to be sustainable, for me to live with the limitations it imposes and to do no harm.
Yes I suppose it makes me somewhat of a deceptionist but both parts of my life are valuable to me and if I can have it all. ?...........

[mechamoose]

It's not perfect but good enough to be sustainable, for me to live with the limitations it imposes and to do no harm.
Yes I suppose it makes me somewhat of a deceptionist but both parts of my life are valuable to me and if I can have it all. ?...........

That is kind of my point.

You were not doing it to be deceptive. You have been trying to figure out how to integrate who you are with your living situation.

"Do no harm" is an awesome approach, but when does that interfere with the real world of who you are?

At some point you have to draw a line.

My ex HATED and was *repulsed* because I found guys attractive. She didn't get it, and to this day *won't* get it. It is just too far outside of her world view. She is and has been a homophobe. There is nothing I can do to 'fix' that.

Be responsible, be honest, but be YOU.

<3

- MM