So then what does it mean to you to be...

[Heather25]

A woman (or a man for the FtM's)

So I was reading with interest another post by Carlene, http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...35-masculinity and people were discussing the concept of what masculinity and femininity mean, with a focus on the stereotypes of what are manly things versus feminine things. Needless to say these stereotypes don't make you a woman or a man, but then what does?

We all know the examples, an effeminate gay man is just as comfortable being a man as the manly man is, while the same applies to the girly girl and the manly lesbian woman. So why are we different?

It was interesting to me because I've been trying to work through a similar question as I come to know and understand these previously denied/buried feelings and thoughts.

So before I finally recognized what these feelings were and what they could mean, I like most people blindly accepted that I was a male simply because that's the physical body that I inhabited. These other thoughts and feelings that I had were simply part of the human experience and everyone has these thoughts, right? Well, no.

So now I'm here, and I'm trying to make sense of what makes a man a man and a woman a woman. Research has pretty clearly shown that the bits and pieces don't necessarily do it. How a person is raised doesn't do it. A person's interests or hobbies don't do it. So what does? What does being a man mean, and what does being a woman mean to you?

I'm having a tough time with that question. I've accepted that being a man or a woman won't change the core of who I am. It won't change my likes or dislikes, or make me a better or worse person. I'll still be me either way. Perhaps it is as simple as there isn't really a difference, only a certain congruence between our perception and subconscious self image? That's kind of where I am now.

So is that the answer? It isn't really explainable but rather a lack of congruence that leads us to where we are? What is your opinion, or what have you gained from being a woman (or a man) that you lacked before? I know the feeling is strong but I'm having a very difficult time putting it to words and that is troublesome to me.

Now I'll close with a few things:

First, I've been seeing a psychologist so I am getting professional help trying to sort this out. That's just been tough because of the relationship with my wife.

Second, this post rambles a bit and I apologize for that. I hope I got my main point/thought across.

And finally third, there is no right or wrong answer here. I'm not really looking for an answer to my specific feelings, only I can find that within myself. And I will, in time. I'm just looking to see what other people's feelings on the topic are.

Thanks!

Heather

[LeaP]

The question is profound, and so is the answer. I've tried approaching it in different ways. One is by using internal conflict as a pointer to what has been suppressed. Another is emotional awareness and, related to that, mindfulness. Experimentation yields confirmations and negations. I've looked to see if my experiences were echoed in other's lives. I've compared how I've related to other types of people with sex and/or gender issues. All of these approaches are too conscious, however. One does not think their gender, nor feel it (i.e., it is not an emotion). All of these things may reflect your gender, but are not gender themselves.

Your congruence question is closer to essence, but is still a reflection, if a deeper one. An issue with congruence may define transsexuality, but not gender.

I do perceive women and men as having different energies. Now I'm a rational thinker and that comes off as sort of New Age-y, but I believe it nonetheless. Its ebb and flow have become a fundamental part of how I experience both myself and others. Is that it, then? No - yet another reflection. Characteristic, I think, but not definitive, and still not gender itself.

So my answer is that I do not really know. Gender somehow becomes more elusive even as it becomes certain.

What have I gained? Considerable inner peace, for one thing. I figuratively tore off flesh charred from trying to withstand the heat of living in the world to find my sensitivities beneath intact, like new (and raw) skin. Fragile at first, as I feared more pain, I now find life and strength in them. It's breathtaking to live them openly, to ride with them, to LET them ebb and flow, to give and take with others. With that, I also discovered living in the present, interactively, without trying to manipulate or gain advantage. Even when very unpleasant. Amazing. (... and a source of womens' strength)

Life is new again.

[Kathryn Martin]

Am I ever glad someone finally opened that can of worms on this board. This question "what does it mean to be a man or a woman" is both so mundane and so complex. Every person in this world asks and answers that question at some point in their life whether they know it or not. And how can you find out what it means and I think the answer cannot be given by self examination until you have experienced men and women around you. But this experience is not one of how they appear but rather how they perceive and impact the world that surrounds them. I have (and somewhat losely) called it the survival strategies which are quite different in men and woman. Let me give you and example:

In order to function as a woman in the world, you have to walk around pretending you're not that vulnerable. As individuals we believe that we're stronger. I remember, at 24-years-old, play-fighting with my boyfriend in his bed. "Bet you can't pin me" I teased. I did spin-class. I did yoga. I believed it. So we tussled. We rolled around, and pushed and hit. And he pinned me. Easily. So we tussled harder. Then we tussled again. And again and again. Because he could always pin me. All skinny, pale, 6 feet of him could pin me. Every time. Even when I fought past the point of flirtation. Even when I started to get pissed. To really try. He could pin me. He could always ****ing pin me. And it all came home to me, right then, that I couldn't get away. If anyone wanted to do anything to me. I couldn't claw, fight, scratch my way out of it. Not even me, who felt so strong. Who did so much research. It doesn't matter how capable you are if someone decides to take something from you. And we're living in a world where that happens all the time. Where subconsciously, we must be validating this behavior, or it wouldn't continue on such a profound level. ("The infuriating reality of being a woman" Sasha Alexander 18th March, 201 Jezebel)

Then think about the inner gestures that accompany these experiences. Think about the capacity to violate and the capacity to be violated, and in the context it does not matter whether you violated or were violated, but the capacity, in the context mentioned above. I will leave it at that.

[Joanne f]

Hello Heather,
as far as I can see there are two answers to this ,a general one in which people will give you an answer on what their opinion of what a woman is or should be but like everything else women are so diverse you could go on for ever , then there is the personal feelings that one has and the way I see that is you are what you are, in other words there is no need to keep thinking what makes me a woman you just accept it as normal and the thoughts only come into it when you want to make yourself look how you think you should so I personally think the two are a bit separate although they will be linked if that makes any sense or maybe I just have it all wrong (well it does mess your head up abit looking like one thing yet being another ) well thats my excuse

[bas1985]

I have thought much on this. I am a rational person too, so my answer will be rational.

I suppose that, as we usually say that to understand our need to transition it is better to separate sexuality from inner feelings, also the difference between man and woman is better understood if we separate the biological function of male and female bodies, from the role in society.

I am not an effeminate man but a very masculine woman because I feel better in the ROLE of women in my society... what if I lived in Iran or in another country were women's right are very impaired with those of men? Would I still feel better in the role of a woman? Would I transition nonetheless?
Would I consider transition?

[arbon]

Early in therapy my therapist asked something like what I thought it meant to be a woman. She gave it to me as kind of an assignment so I went and home thought about it for a while and the next appointment with her I just said I can't answer it. Its a huge question with to many possible answers. The only thing I really understood was how unhappy I was living as a man. Its what I saw myself when I looked in the mirror, its what the world reflected back to me. I did not know what it would be like to be a woman, or live as one.

I am sure there are plenty of people still who do not consider me a woman, but most people do see me that way now. Being a woman is reflected back to me most of the time and its what I see more and more when I look in the mirror. I feel better about me. Do I know what it means to be that? no I don't.it just is

[KellyJameson]

At its heart the differences between men and women must be about survival and reproduction because that is why there are two sexes.

Men and women go about the business of surviving and reproducing differently than their opposite.

Men and women are both territorial but have a different relationship to space. This instinctual drive tends to make men want to be conquers which is the expression of their desire to dominate.

Men are instinctually built for war but war must be socialized INTO women where it is socially controlled in men. A woman will step into a boxing ring but women collectively are much less likely to form into a group made up of only women to pillage a village.

A women comes to violence from a different direction.

Women find security through relationships not only to be safe from the violence of men but to help provide security for her offspring so the movement toward others is both instinctual and consciously chosen

Watch what the different sexes are attracted to for entertainment. Watch how the different sexes act in a social environment.

In my opinion my female gender identity was created in childhood because I'm fundamentally different on an instinctual level from men so I sensed that I was "different" and not one of them (boys) but one of them (girls) and this was who I identified with.

The male programming as instincts was not installed into my brain so I consciously experienced my environment as females do and behaved accordingly.

My life was constantly being pushed to join the group that I did not belong to.

These instincts not being in me also left me feeling more spiritually aware and sensitive to my world than boys and men as that feeling of connectedness which is much stronger in the female but she is often distracted from a relationship with this experience by becoming a mother so turns to men for her spiritual guidance and sustanence.

In my opinion if you want to understand the differences between the sexes you must start with the seed that ultimately shapes the behavior which are the instincts.

The instincts are the ENERGY that you can feel in people.

This is why I experience some transsexuals as men because their energy created by their instincts is clearly male while with others they are clearly female.

I believe that transsexuals are either born or created by some form of trauma in childhood but the problem is both groups experience trauma but for different reasons.

It is also my opinion that those who were born into transexuality will experience far fewer problems post-op than those who were "made" from what has been done to them by others.

We are born with the need to identify with others (join and belong to our group) and one of the ways this is done is along lines of gender.

I'm interested to see if more boys/men identify with the female gender as women collectively become more powerful because men identify with expressions of power so they may move towards the female identity.

In my opinion transsexuals that are born are instinctually different from men and they will always be in a minority but there will be an explosion of MtF transitions as women collectively begin to dominate society and "men" follow them.

The male always has problems finding their identity because they must separate from the mother where the female does not have to. This gives the female an advantage of emotional stability and I suspect one reason men have historically been threatened by women from the seperation anxiety of an over bonded and mother identified son.

At the same time separating from the mother is necessary for autonomy and many daughters suffer the consequences of never stepping out of their mothers shadow or control.

In my opinion therapy is vital to the transition process to make absolutely sure you were born into it and not created by the world you were born into.

[Dianne S]

What's important for me, for some reason, is for others to perceive me as a woman and treat me as such. As a man, I'm not particularly effeminate --- everyone I came out to about my gender dysphoria was very surprised. But I feel a strong, almost overwhelming, need to make the external match the internal and have other people see me the way I feel inside.

[Barbara Ella]

This question can be answered and discussed for an eternity. It is very personal. "What does it mean to me to be a woman?" I am sure the trip has a big impact on how one views and answers this. there are extreme social ramifications that must be addressed, realized, and accepted. Only recently having become aware of the true me, I am deeply in the midst of my journey, and am full of speculation and questions myself. I truly hope it will mean finally having an inner peace. That I can gratefully handle, the other external things will just be.

Barbara

[Michelle789]

I have been struggling with this issue too. My therapist asked me on a questionnaire to answer these questions too. What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman?

I'm finding out that my main reason for transition is because my core identity is female. It's not about gender roles, nor is it about how I dress? Granted, I like being treated as a lady. I like wearing skirts and other articles of clothes that only women can wear. But I feel like I am female, and always have, since I was 5, and I had to repress this because my parents and society told me I was a boy.

Yes, gender roles did trigger a lot of dysphoria. But ultimately if I was given the choice to be a stay at home dad, or a career woman, I'd be the career woman, because I am a woman, and not a man. Gender identity supersedes gender roles or how I dress.

In my opinion transsexuals that are born are instinctually different from men and they will always be in a minority but there will be an explosion of MtF transitions as women collectively begin to dominate society and "men" follow them.

That is debatable. I know plenty of cis-gendered women and men who will tell you that men will always be the dominant gender no matter how much feminism we have. I know plenty of cis-gendered men and women who believe that women always were the more dominant gender ever since the beginning of time. These ideas seem like contradictions, and it can be confusion to figure out which gender holds the power.

And what is power? Is power men using brute force to control women, or women using manipulative tactics to control men? Does members of each gender claim that the opposite has the power, and try to deny their own gender's power, as a way to gain power over the other gender?

Yesterday, I went to a transgender conference, and attended a seminar where we talked about what is gender, and the science behind gender. They made clear that 80% of the science on MTF transsexuals were done on white transwomen who are solely attracted to men and are right-handed. And that science is largely conducted and interpreted through the lens of the powerful groups of people (e.g. cis-gendered white heterosexual males).

Another study on transwomen suggested that most white and Asian MTFs are attrated to women, and black and Latino MTFS are usually attracted to men.

Studies on the digit ratio theory tried to debunk it showing that the difference between the average male and female digit ratio is so small (0.03 inches) and varies across race and ethnicity.

Perhaps there is no gender binary. Gender binary, and all it's socially constructed stereotypes, are just that, stereotypes, created by patriarchy to control the masses and to restrict who gets access to scarce resources. Maybe if we separate gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation, and gender psychology, and understand that we can be anywhere on the scale for any of these, not just male or female but somewhere in between, we can get a wide variety of identities and expressions in human.

[Inna]

Essence

there is something innately magical, a glow within, that shines the light of femininity.
Whether soft or harsh, poised or primitive, week or tough, thin or thick, a woman remains unmistakably a woman!

To me the essence of a woman is her SENSUALITY, where mans core essence is SEXUALITY

SENSUALITY as in emotional, ethereal, where SEXUALITY is that of bodily, physical, corporal. Two separate modes of perceiving reality.

I am sure many will misunderstand, but what I mean by this, is that the world in woman's eyes is saturated with emotions, of absorbing the world around her not by touch but by concepts of harmony with nature. Innate understanding of her gift of bringing life into this realm and therefore being naturally maternal and caring and compassionate.

[Heather25]

Thanks to all for the responses. There is a lot of insightful feelings and opinions posted. I'm glad to know that the difficulty I have coming up with an answer is not unusual. Mostly because there is no answer I guess!

A while back my therapist asked what it would mean to me to be a woman, how it would affect who I am. I sputtered about, thinking out loud. The next session I had my answer, that I would still be me. What would change is how the world sees me and how I interact with it. Those things though would be somewhat predicated on stereotypes of how society sees women and their roles and traits. I certainly don't have to conform to those stereotypes in order to be a woman, but they certainly do matter as they color all of our interactions with the world whether we like it or not.

I do agree that there is something there, some differences that matter. What they are though is not clear and subject to considerable debate.

[DebbieL]

From as far back as I can remember, boys represented pain, violence, fear. At two years old it mean seriously hurt, often bloody. I wasn't like the other boys. I didn't have a boy's brain - I had no instinct to fight, to push back when pushed. When the girl next door wanted to be my friend, it was one of the best things to happen to me. We played nicely, played with dolls, took turns, shared, cooperated, and took care of each other. I was happy.
Over the next few years, I made friends with many other girls. Even when I stayed with boys my own age, I often enjoyed playing with their older sisters.
In grade school, I liked being with the girls, because they played nice, played the games I liked to play, and we enjoyed the same things.

When I moved, I still liked girls, and at first, I had no trouble making friends with the other girls. I really didn't have much interest in playing with boys by then. But when we decided to play dress-up and traded clothes at a friend's house, her mother freaked out, sent me home, called the principal, the teacher, and the other parents on the PTA. She didn't even try to talk to my mother before making these other calls. By the time I got to school the following week, my teacher would have lost her job if she let me play with the girls - so I had to play with the boys.

Playing with the boys was an exercise in terror. Less than 30 minutes after starting to play with them, they were pelting me with rocks, one of which hit me just below the eye. Later they started hitting me and kicking me. I just got to where I hated recess and lunch. After school, they started hitting me with sticks (like clubs - about 2 inches in diameter).

I eventually just isolated myself. Reading non-fiction books. I hated school, especially Recess, Gym, and Lunch - because these were usually about getting beat up by the other boys.

Being a boy among boys was something I associated with violence, with terror, with crying, and with sickness. I was hospitalized over 60 times because of asthma attacks triggered or aggravated by emotional stress of being attacked by boys.

I wanted to play with the girls. I would try to play with the girls every chance I got, but the parents would try to prevent that. I wanted to BE a girl. I asked God to turn me into a girl, I wished upon a start to be a girl, I wished on wish-bones and birthday candles to be a girl. It was the one thing I wanted more than anything else.

I would get up in the middle of the night and dress up in my mother's sunday church clothes. I loved getting dressed up like a girl, I wanted to BE a girl. Sometimes, when my parents were watching TV, I would go lock myself in the bathroom and get dressed up.

One day, my mom couldn't wait to use the bathroom and I was stuck in my mom's dress and couldn't get it off in time. She used a hanger to unlock the door, then saw me in her clothes. She told me not to take anything off and sit on her bed. When she finished doing what she had to do, she came back to talk to me. That's when I spilled it. I told her that I hated playing with the boys, that I wanted to be a girl, that I didn't think I could go on living if I had to be a boy. She was very understanding and my dad was also understanding. Mom even agreed to take me shopping so I could get some clothes of my own. She bought me a pair of tights, but dad decided that I shouldn't try to dress like a girl.

What I didn't find out until years later, just before my dad died, was that my mom had talked to her therapist and was told that I would have to be "treated" with electro-shock daily for a month or two, and if that didn't work, they would have to give me a lobotomy. Needless to say, they went from being supportive to telling me that I had to make sure that I never told anybody, or something rally terrible would happen. My mother had been through the daily shocks herself - similar to the MKUltra treatment, possibly because she had been raped by the son of a prominent politician (senator or congressman?). She swore that she would never let them do that to me.

I eventually got really smart, and I became a good writer. I was a bit of a nerd - because that was one area where I could win - being smart.

Later, the boys all assumed that because I was effeminate, that I was also homosexual. As a result, I got beat up for being "queer".

When my voice changed, I was almost suicidal, self destructive. I turned to drugs and booze, often going into black-outs. It wasn't until I started singing in Choir, where I had both male and female friends, no fear of violence, and could go to rehearsals after lunch instead of having to go outside, that I began to sober up.

When I went to college, I went to a nearly all girl school - 900 women and 25 guys. They needed males for choir and theater. I finally got to be one of the girls. As a freshman I was like a "little sister", I was even made an honorary member of the Mu Phi Epsilon music sorority.

I did however, struggle - conflicted between wanting to BE a girl, and wanting to be sexual with a girl. I had two lovers in college, both of whom figured out that I was more like a lesbian than a man. However when my fiance dumped me two days after finding out, I was terrified to let anyone know what I really was. There were a number of suicide attempts, and several attempts to discuss my gender dysphoria with therapists - all of which were shut down as soon as I got enough courage and trust to blurt it out.

One marriage and 2 children later, I finally found a therapist who was willing to talk about my cross-dressing (all I was willing to discuss at that time). After a few sessions, he realized that I was a type 6 transsexual. He recommended gender transition ASAP, and I started. I lost 100 lbs, went out dressed and went to social events and 12 step meetings as Debbie. For the first time I was actually able to be honest and authentic with people about who I was on the inside. By this time I had 10 years clean and sober, and had a good set of computer skills. I had to make some hard changes, but was pretty much on track to transition. I was happier, healthier, more focused, more productive, and more successful than I had ever been before. I had hope that my decades of suffering were almost over.

For various reasons, I had to delay my transition, and it cost me dearly. However, I finally did transition, and it's the best thing that I ever did. My only regret is that I didn't transition decades earlier. But then again, I have to accept that this wasn't an option until about 25 years ago.

[Dawn cd]

Clearly gender is more than a social construct. Women are biologically engineered to bear children and nurse them. Assuming they are paired, males must become protectors and providers. Having said that much, there are a million ways of BEING a woman or BEING a man, and one can CHOOSE which way to be. One can even choose to be a women with male engineering. Transexuals find themselves caught in the flux of destiny and choice. It's a hard, hard trek—but in the end, what a ride!

[Rianna Humble]

So Debbie, to sum it up, and using the words of the OP "What does it mean to you to be a woman?"

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I don't know the answer to the specific question. I wish I did.

It's a very fascinating concept/question, but its also an academic exercise that will have little (if any) practical value to you if you are struggling with your gender.

Post transition, I would say it doesn't really mean anything to me to be a woman.
I am proud of how hard I worked to try to make it as a man. I am proud of how hard I worked to accept my own gender reality and then dealt with it straight on.
I know what I am, but past that I can't say much more.

I can say living as a woman stopped my suffering, I can say it makes me feel "whole", it makes me feel like a "right" person instead of a "Wrong(ashamed)" person... but words are tough to come by, and I had to learn this by doing it

Why I have male genes and grew up as a male is a mystery to me and I tried desperately to solve it... What being a woman meant to me was a big part of that mystery..
I spent a lot of time wondering about this question. It didn't help me at all.. It just freaked me out.

In the end, desperation stopped me from obsessing over this question and led me to accept reality and transition. Even today it sounds strange to say "accept reality" in the context of "i am a woman"..

I admit I tend to be the party pooper in the existential question department!!!

[Kathryn Martin]

....and nurse them.

In a sense you are stereotyping by your description. While biologically the difference is that reproductive configuration is different and the brain development is different, nursing is something that a woman with a transsexual medical history is able to achieve. I am working with one young transwoman on inducing lactation to be able to nurse her to be adopted baby. It is possible and completely amazing.

[Heather25]

Kaitlyn - your comment saying that it doesn't really mean anything to you to be a woman actually makes a lot of sense to me in an odd way. As I've been pondering it, I've come to much of the same feeling. It was troubling me to feel that way and I'm glad you and other posters have similar thoughts. And by the way, I'm too am usually no good with existential questions but this process sure does have a lot if them! I find that I'm opening up to many possibilities that never would have crossed my previously closed mind.

I feel the same as many of you, that this is truly a question that could be answered many different ways, or never really have an answer. That's kind of why I asked the question, to see how other people felt about it and what it meant to them.

[Rogina B]

You are doing good Kathryn!That's great!

[noeleena]

Hi,

I dont know what its like to ...be... a full male i dont think as one i cant relate to or with men ,

im hard wired female allmost 100 % one detail i know is ill save my kids at all costs if im put in that poisition meaning ill go in to fight for them, they are my flesh and blood, strong bonds .try getting in between them and me .

Im not a woman for the clothes or glamour or being pretty, or feminine , a hard working woman, who gets stuck in as we say mud up to my arm pits and what i wear makes little difference,

At age 10 i knew what i was no drama's there, and was not forced to be other than myself,

Now this ? what does it mean to me to be a woman oh hell iv no idear. The fact i am one , born different hey im happy with my maleness thats part of who i am and gave me the strength to be who i am now in fact keeped me alive, to be honist.

strong for a woman body wise, and mentaly not a wimp, a lot of my training has been good for me a bit hard at times yet was worth it,

I could site many women who youd say they are bloody men to look at very muscle bound and stroppy yet all woman, not all of us as i said pretty or femnine, and do we have to be.

to be women, take you to our people from Prussia youd soon see,

the misconceptions are there we need to look a little deeper than just a female has to look a certain way to be accepted as women,

i know here a woman looks more male than i do heck and when i looked at her i thought wow,

Okay im not comparing , just okay, i could tell you lots about myself as a woman yet do i need to , no if you meet me youd 2 nd quess me to start with and you then get to know me youd soon see, yes mam im a woman, no ? about it.

...noeleena...