Equality?

[Christen]

I've been ruminating on this for a little while. In some posts I get an impression that some of us, may, have some interesting, perhaps even conservative attitudes. Being someone who loves the feminine and women enough to want to imitate them as best I can, I can't hold on to thoughts that as a guy I have attributes that makes me better in some way.
I have to ask, do you accept that women are equal to men, just as able, just as capable, just as smart, deserve the same recognition, pay levels, opportunities, as guys or do you hang on to a notion that there are things men can do, are better at, are more suited to than women. Be honest now!

Chisten x

[PaulaQ]

Yes, women are equal to men, or rather that's how the world ought to be. Unfortunately this is far from the situation now.

[Kate Simmons]

Absolutely Hon and I have no hesitation with that answer.

[Jocelyn Quivers]

Definitely, absolutely more pain tolerant/able to handle pain. The whole child birth thing!

[Zylia]

People on this board may love women or frilly things, but don't mistake that for a healthy 'pro-equality' attitude. You can love your wife and still chain her to the kitchen sink. The "I'm a better woman then women themselves" thing you'll see here is borderline misogynic and so is the whole concept of pretending to know what it is to be a woman because you (kinda) look like one.

In my experience, this community is about as progressive or conservative as you might expect from a group of middle-aged American men. Wearing a nurse uniform does not make you Florence Nightingale.

[Katey888]

So this is developing into the most politically correct thread I've seen for a long time...

My heart is fair warming to all the Utopian sentiments here... In fact, if the world just comprised our members, well, we might be approaching Nirvana...

Then again... (here it comes...)

Equal? Are we all equal in the most simplistic of simplified, simple single-cell ideals? (sorry Christen..)

Between genders - maybe, but unlikely... given that our societal culture is a bigger determinant of equality rather than individuals. And some cultures may do better there - the Nordics, for example? I wouldn't think for a minute that our Western cultures overall truly offer real equality to anyone - forget gender.

So in terms of what actually happens IRL - equality is a fantasy... Economic background (this more than anything), innate intelligence, local socio-economic environment - all these have a much greater impact than either gender or any individual ideal of equal rights...

I'm not saying it's right or fair - but I also don't live in cloud-cuckoo land...

Humans (in general) are collectively the worst scourge this planet has seen ever... human nature is far from ideal - we're exploitative, materialistic, acquisitive, violent, competitive... gender equality doesn't even make the needle flicker...

Ok - done now..

Katey x

[Vikky]

Hi Christen

What a brilliant post.

Men and women are equal, always have been and always should be. However in society women are generally considered to be less equal to men, something that is wrong and things like pay and status should be equal.

However, George Orwell famously wrote a book called Animal Farm, one that parodied communism. In it the pigs who ruled the farm considered that “Some animals are more equal to others.”

Perhaps this is why the girls get to wear all the great clothes – skirts, dresses, soft band frilly things, long hair. More equality for CDers I say


Vikky

[Matia]

People always like to put things in the boxes, and these boxes then become rigid and dogmatic. Biologically and statistically there are surely things in which men are usually better than women and other way around,
but it prooves nothing, people should be equal nevermind their gender and that I think sums it best. My problem with lot of crossdressing/crossdressers is , that the way they create their "female" image is very sexist,
lot of time the fantasies and position of a woman they "create" is quite humiliating. It often comes as normal that if they are a woman, they are submissive, and do "girlie things". In many ways crossdressers can be much
more sexist and create prejudice and then they will cry - i can't do this i can't do that, society would never understand it.

Treat all people with respect, give them equal oportunities, and when you become woman, try to be as good and decent woman as possible so you're not embarassing anybody but the opposite that's what I would like to do

[Tamara Croft]

Matia, what a great reply and I have to agree with it

[Zylia]

Nailed it, Matia. Thanks!

The whole child birth thing!

This is the problem. Maybe I'm reading too much into what you just said, but when you're making an argument for gender equality, you shouldn't reduce women to babymakers and/or men to boxlifters. Equality isn't about men making more babies or women lifting more boxes, it's about overcoming these barriers. We humans do it all the time, when it's cold we wear a coat, when we need to go faster we drive a car and when we need to scream louder we use the internet. However, women still get the short end of the social and economic stick, even in places that consider themselves 'modern' and civilised like the USA and western Europe. Why is it so hard to treat women equally, even in situations where babymaking or boxlifting is not even relevant?

[Jocelyn Quivers]

Nailed it, Matia. Thanks!


This is the problem. Maybe I'm reading too much into what you just said, but when you're making an argument for gender equality, you shouldn't reduce women to babymakers and/or men to boxlifters. Equality isn't about men making more babies or women lifting more boxes, it's about overcoming these barriers. We humans do it all the time, when it's cold we wear a coat, when we need to go faster we drive a car and when we need to scream louder we use the internet. However, women still get the short end of the social and economic stick, even in places that consider themselves 'modern' and civilised like the USA and western Europe. Why is it so hard to treat women equally, even in situations where babymaking or boxlifting is not even relevant?

I'll go with you were reading a little too deeply into what I said. I guess I should not have been watching the usual Fox News programs when I looked at this thread, and no I am not reducing women which includes my mother, grand mothers, aunt's, nieces, sister, wife, and every other GG to baby makers, host, etc. who have 0 say in any issues regarding their reproductive rights, let alone allowing businesses to claim they don't have to provide birth control because of the business owners personal beliefs. Ditto for lawmakers who claim there's no need for laws mandating equal pay.

[Christen]

Matia, brilliant words! Where have you been?

Christen x

[noeleena]

Hi,

Are we all equal,

does that mean in every thing ,detail ,aptitude.how we see things how things effect us Emotionally we are not equal when it comes to us bearing our children in our bonding feeding .

We are far from being equal im not equal to men how do you arrive at females are equal to men we are so different in our bodys to start with,

Does it come down to strength I know some women are very strong i count my self strong they would walk over me im stronger than some men i can do many things many men cant and they of myself ,
if we compare ourselfs with each other that wont work because we are all so different .

Would it not be so much better to build each other up were i lack will some one else make up my lack in stead of casting me down because of what ever the issue is,
can i build others up i do that any way try to.

I was with the Fire Service NZFD. now i know that as we trained we had no women well one detail was how many could carry an other person down a ladder very few ,some 30 ft, or lift an other up.

why, for some of us we dont have the body strength so would fail or fall , lets just accept not all of us female's can do every thing, Dont get me wrong i know many men could not do it ,

So is there equality between men in the same way as women , i know theres not ,

Im a bulder ran my own concern and had one female work for me Kaylyn our daughter, helping strip and paint two house's she could not (( man handle )) the heavy planks by her self and i would not have expected kaylyn to do so, case in point,

or to use heavy machinery all day she did and does not have that strength shes now 35 and we did those two jobs over 5 years ago .

i dont belive or accept we are equal to each other wether men to men or women to men and theres many more details that will show this from time begining,

Heres another one you will allready know though, im female im not equal with most other women though some i will be, im one of those born with out my womb so im not a full working female in that regard, just like having a hysterectomy id have more incommen with,

ANZAC Day coming up.

Ill take it as referring to the more English, going back to the British up bringing say the 2nd ww yet even then we had the land girl's , women doing much of the work and for the ordinance factorys building plane's and so on of cause there was help for them in the heavy lifting, crane's and other gear,

If we look at each persons makeup we will find many differences when we accept that then maybe we all can accept each other for who we / they are and get on with life with out a need to even look at equality being an issue,

...noeleena...

[Nadine Spirit]

Matia summed up my thoughts brilliantly. Thanks Matia.

[sometimes_miss]

This will not be politically correct, and it will not be what anyone really wants to hear. No, women and men are not equals. Yes, we deserve equal opportunities at whatever we desire to pursue in life. But we are most definitely not equals. There is plenty of documentation that will substantiate this. Men in general are: Vastly stronger, faster; we can also 'see' things in three dimensions much better than women which helps us pursue prey (food) or enemies. We excel at the maths and sciences more often than women do by a wide margin. Women have far better communicative skills, both verbal and non verbal. A woman quickly learns the different sounds that babies make and what they mean, and while some men can to it too, a lot of us can't. Women are far better at multitasking, while men are better and are able to focus on one thing better (think, talking with the other women, gathering food, watching the kids all at the same time, vs hunting down something and killing it quickly without being distracted by some piece of tasty fruit on a nearby tree). Currently, women live longer than men. No one knows exactly why, but as women embrace traditionally male lifestyles and behaviors the gap is closing, which suggests that it isn't necessarily our genetics that provide the lifespan gap. Men fall in love faster, and fall out of love slower than women. Men make decisions faster, and don't linger on mistakes. Perhaps this is because some of life's most important decisions for a woman have tremendous impact on her life; choose the wrong mate and wind up with a child and she's stuck with that decision until that kid is independent, while the male can disappear and start over with a new mate almost immediately. The old childbirth, the myth that women can withstand pain better than men? Another falsehood. Want proof? Take people's blood pressure, oh, on say, a thousand individuals. WAY more women will complain that the cuff hurts their arms, some even scream about the pain. Men very, very rarely ever say a word. Soldiers wounded on the battlefield endure tremendous pain just as women do when they're giving birth, and often, those soldiers continue to function normally and fight until they drop dead. Don't think that's impressive? Think again. The list goes on and on. And yes, you can look it all up. Because that's what I did. Yes, we're different. And that's a good thing. Our abilities usually compliment each other, not compete. And you know what? Races aren't all equal either. It really bothers me that so many want to believe that everyone's the same. We're not. We're different. And that's a good thing, too.

[Zylia]

Fair point sometimes_miss and often made in these kind of discussions. The logical counterargument is that equality does not equal sameness. Equality of gender means equal rights, equal opportunities, equal treatment, etc. for any and all genders (assuming there are more than two). That might sound obvious, but the way people are treated based to their gender is still slanted. You can look that up as well. If you think that this inequality is justified because of biological differences we have to agree to disagree. That's a point of view bordering on social Darwinism that I can't share.

[bridget thronton]

I believe in equal opportunity for all - definitely no barriers based on gender

[UNDERDRESSER]

This will not be politically correct, and it will not be what anyone really wants to hear. No, women and men are not equals. -----snip----- it really bothers me that so many want to believe that everyone's the same. We're not. We're different. And that's a good thing, too.

All true...on average.

There are differences. On the other hand, the overlap of the differences is wider than the difference in the average. Yes, you could argue that ones gender can make one better fitted for a particular job or position, but you shouldn't exclude any particular job, course of study, or way to behave because of it. You shouldn't force, or even encourage or persuade, one colour choice, one type of toy, one type of sport or pastime on a child. As they get older, any course of study should be open, any chosen career should not be blocked or denigrated. No preferred sex of partner should be barred.

This one shouldn't even need to be said on here.

No choice of clothing should be off limits if it meets the needs of the laws of where you live.

If it wasn't clear already from reading this forum for a while, not all MEN are created the same, the same is true of women. I know and work with many girls and women who could give the "average" man who post on here a damn good beating in many areas of sport or strength. I personally know 2 women who are smarter than any man I have ever met.

sometimes _miss, your point is valid, in some ways, but an awful lot of the statistics thrown around come to be because of a horribly rigid sexual split that is essentially forced on us as children, it has negative impacts on boys as well as girls.

We should not be encouraging that attitude.

[JenniferYager]

I prefer the notion that men and women have equal dignity, but are in no way equal.

We all have our place in the world, a niche that we fill better than anyone else. We should cherish that niche. Sometimes that niche is being a stay at home mom, or a working dad. Or maybe it's being a working mom with a support husband at home. Or maybe it's working in a particular job field because you feel called to it and staying single because parenthood doesn't appeal to you. The important thing is that you are satisfied with what you have.

There will ALWAYS be people that look down on you because of what color, gender, status, etc. you happen to be. If your self worth is measured by that, you will always fall short and I would never want to walk in your shoes. I've grown to admire folks in all places, from the guy that empties the septic tank to the young lady that makes coffee at Starbucks. All of them merit equal dignity, meaning they deserve a basic respect we should give all human beings. But to say they are equal is folly. Should we say Hillary Clinton is equal to the neighborhood Starbucks barrista? I wouldn't. We all have unequal abilities that are ever shifting and developing as we grow older. To try and imply that we are all equal would negate this constant desire to better ourselves.

I'll stick with equal dignity, but not equality.

[Marcelle]

Yes, as Matia so brilliantly put . . . all people (no gender required) are equal in all things. Gender is a concept (societal - sugar and spice / puppy dog tails and snails) which has constrained us as a species. The only true difference is biology and that in of itself does not negate the ability of one sex. My military admits women to all categories of service including combat. I have seen some extremely tough women in the field of battle . . . whereas I have seen some dismal failures of men in battle. So gender (societal) or sex (biological) was not a factor of success. It is innate human qualities which we all have . . . hence we are all equal.

The best advice I ever got in my life was from my very first platoon sergeant . . . "Never treat anyone the way you would not want to be treated because that makes you a coward and a liar".

In my experience, this community is about as progressive or conservative as you might expect from a group of middle-aged American men. Wearing a nurse uniform does not make you Florence Nightingale.

Zylia . . . very true . . . we are still a sample of the general population.

Treat all people with respect, give them equal oportunities, and when you become woman, try to be as good and decent woman as possible so you're not embarassing anybody but the opposite that's what I would like to do

Matia . . . well said.

Hugs

Isha

[Lexi Moralas]

I think both have there strengths and weaknesses but over all I things are equal

[heatherdress]

Original question - Yes, I do believe that women and men are equal to men, just as able, just as capable, just as smart, deserve the same recognition, pay levels, opportunities. I live my life supporting those basic beliefs

I also disagree with the judgment that most crossdressers create female images that are sexist and what they do is humiliating to women. That is unfairly judgmental and probably very inaccurate. Isn't all crossdressing, in fact, some effort to create a female image? Creating a feminine image does not also become sexist and humiliating.

By what I read, crossdressers in general tend to be more sensitive to women's feelings and are more understanding and accepting. Maybe crossdressers do dress in ways that are sexy and pleasurable to themselves, but that is usually in private and perhaps to satisfy sexual feelings and provide escape. I do not see how that would diminish women or feminine equality.

So what if you like to wear 6 inch heels and leather? Many women do.

[Michelle789]

Why would women want to be equal to men - it would be such a downgrade!

Interesting perspective Debbie. I don't see much of that here on this forum. Most people seem to think the opposite that it would be an upgrade.

One thing that I think really sucks about being male. Anyone who is male assigned at birth, including cross-dressers, TG, and pre-transition MTF TS, are essentially not allowed to complain about how hard it is to be a male. It even happens here on this forum. See my male privilege thread on December 9, 2013. Doing so will get you labeled as a chauvinist, insensitive, douchebag, pervert, creep, and at the very best, gay or sissy. If a woman complains how hard it is, men and women will both sympathize with you.

I agree that one thing about being male that really sucks is men are more expendable. As per a previous one of your posts Debbie, I think beta and omega males are FAR better off than alpha males. Males are found at the extremes of society, and those who are the at the top of the food chain, those alpha males who survive the wars, they are rewarded with all the male privileges, the women, the food, the power, money, and status. All the rest either die or are considered to be the scum of the earth, and are beggars or in prison.

[Marcelle]

Lexi,

When it comes to biological differences . . . yes men and women are different. We would be running around in a Pollyanna Narnia like state if we did not believe so. However difference does not equate to equality. Just because a man is generally more stronger (body strength wise) than a woman it does not mean they are not equals . . . just different aspects of the strength spectrum. I am not as strong as a lot of men my age but that does not make me any less equal. The contention about multi-tasking, communication, baby sounds, maths and sciences have never been founded in scientific research. It is more plausible that women are able to identify what different baby sounds mean better than men because historically they have been the care givers. I know plenty of stay at home dads who know exactly what their baby's cry means. It is just as plausible that men may appear more gifted at the sciences and maths because historically that is where men have studied (engineering, doctors, science). However that gap is fast narrowing with more and more women attending university and less men doing so. Multi-tasking is a function of the executive function of the frontal cortex not hunting skill . . . this is a cognitive function and we all (men and women) have the ability to do so. Some (both sexes) are just better at it than others.

It is a misnomer to equate equality with differences IMHO. It was and in some still is used to equate different levels of pay for equal work (i.e., men are stronger so they do more work on average than women . . . so women should be paid less). Men are more gifted at math so let's not admit women to engineering programs because they won't understand.

Hugs

Isha

[Jenniferathome]

We are equal in most respects and women deserve to be so. As a father of two young women, my daughters deserve every opportunity to compete fairly with men. However, in some very limited areas, men are better suited, such as, physical labor. Testosterone has guaranteed that the average man will have an easier time doing heavy manual labor.