Equality?

[Lorileah]

We may be all going fishing on this can of worms. It is like asking when did you quit beating your spouse. The ones who don't agree are not going to post unless hey have a thick skin like Sometimes_miss. And to address her response, thousands of years of evolution made those differences but if we could live long enough to see a few more generations, I think what you argue will decrease (if it is actually true at all...better 3-D?). Sociologically, the ideal would be that everyone is equal. It is a basic premise for most democracies. On this forum one would expect the majority to agree but we know as Zylia pointed out it isn't. This goes both for the males and the females here. Subtle little things that are said show that we have our prejudices still. Mostly this is stated as "When I am dressed I like to...." followed by a sexist statement. As I said this goes both ways when we see "My wife wants a 'man'" there are learned things that we cannot avoid.

I want to think I see everyone as equal. I think everyone should be equal. Honestly I catch myself making judgements against this but I have to un-learn things still. I am working toward that end.

[Chickhe]

No. Nobody is equal. However, making the assumption that someone is less capable because of their gender is totally wrong. The difficulty I see, is that people and society limit themselves and then cry foul. For example, my wife is fully capable of checking the oil in her car, but doesn't do it because she might get dirty...she will come to ask me to do it with the assumption that because I am a guy, I don't mind getting dirty. It is a limitation she imposes on her own ability and a limitation society placed on her by making her believe in it...me, I get frustrated because I beleive people are equal...but they don't always put in the effort to be equal. So, the way it works out is we tend to fall in to routines which are the path of least emotional resistance.


I personally, allow anyone the same opportunity...it is about effort and dedication. The world is biased though and does tend to place genders in roles.

[Katey888]

So this is developing into the most politically correct thread I've seen for a long time...

My heart is fair warming to all the Utopian sentiments here... In fact, if the world just comprised our members, well, we might be approaching Nirvana...

Then again... (here it comes...)

Equal? Are we all equal in the most simplistic of simplified, simple single-cell ideals? (sorry Christen..)

Between genders - maybe, but unlikely... given that our societal culture is a bigger determinant of equality rather than individuals. And some cultures may do better there - the Nordics, for example? I wouldn't think for a minute that our Western cultures overall truly offer real equality to anyone - forget gender.

So in terms of what actually happens IRL - equality is a fantasy... Economic background (this more than anything), innate intelligence, local socio-economic environment - all these have a much greater impact than either gender or any individual ideal of equal rights...

I'm not saying it's right or fair - but I also don't live in cloud-cuckoo land...

Humans (in general) are collectively the worst scourge this planet has seen ever... human nature is far from ideal - we're exploitative, materialistic, acquisitive, violent, competitive... gender equality doesn't even make the needle flicker...

Ok - done now..

Katey x

[Beverley Sims]

As an IT person involved with women and computers, I have learned that it is wise to realise that some women are smarter than men when it comes to computing skills.

I always inform them of the mistakes they are are making and what I did to fix their blasted computer.

For this I have gained popularity as the person to ask.

Others just say it's fixed now.... Get on with it.

Women are people too you know.

I love women.

[UNDERDRESSER]

This will not be politically correct, and it will not be what anyone really wants to hear. No, women and men are not equals. -----snip----- it really bothers me that so many want to believe that everyone's the same. We're not. We're different. And that's a good thing, too.

All true...on average.

There are differences. On the other hand, the overlap of the differences is wider than the difference in the average. Yes, you could argue that ones gender can make one better fitted for a particular job or position, but you shouldn't exclude any particular job, course of study, or way to behave because of it. You shouldn't force, or even encourage or persuade, one colour choice, one type of toy, one type of sport or pastime on a child. As they get older, any course of study should be open, any chosen career should not be blocked or denigrated. No preferred sex of partner should be barred.

This one shouldn't even need to be said on here.

No choice of clothing should be off limits if it meets the needs of the laws of where you live.

If it wasn't clear already from reading this forum for a while, not all MEN are created the same, the same is true of women. I know and work with many girls and women who could give the "average" man who post on here a damn good beating in many areas of sport or strength. I personally know 2 women who are smarter than any man I have ever met.

sometimes _miss, your point is valid, in some ways, but an awful lot of the statistics thrown around come to be because of a horribly rigid sexual split that is essentially forced on us as children, it has negative impacts on boys as well as girls.

We should not be encouraging that attitude.

[sanderlay]

When I think about Equality I also add Respect because we are also a Community of Humans before I see any kind of gender label. We all have our talents, some useful and perhaps some not so useful. We may be very experienced in doing some task or just learning a trade. Some persons are stronger with certain talents and abilities and perhaps weaker in others. Non of us can do every task or have the same abilities. Together we are strong and by ourselves we are weak, man or woman.

So are men and women, and those who feel in between, Different to each other? Yes. Each has abilities that differ from each other. But those slight differences does not mean a certain gender is better than the other. And so I believe strongly that we must Respect and have Equality between each other. No person, The strongest or the weakest, richer or poorer, healthy or sick is better that another person. Each person deserves equal opportunities to enrich themselves for the betterment of themselves and the community they are apart of.

[mechamoose]

I do a lot of gaming.. Role playing games, resource management games, etc. One of the things that you learn from doing that is that if you make one stat or ability strong, some other one is going to be weaker. I think people are the same way.

Are there statistical leanings one way or the other? Sure.. but that doesn't mean that a person is less equal because of that.

People don't get to pick what stats they get when they are born any more than they do their biological gender. I'd like to think that anyone can be/do anything.

- MM

[Kirsten1]

Men and women are equal BUT not the SAME!

[DebbieL]

Why would women want to be equal to men - it would be such a downgrade!
One could say I have been "In transition" for the last 25 years. Even when I looked like a male, I acted and sounded more like a woman wearing a man's suit. Nice to have the REST of my body able to look and dress more like what's on the inside. Been working as female for the last 6 months. Before that I was living as female for almost 2 years.y would women want to be equal to men, that would be such a downgrade!
Seriously, there are things that men do better than women - like fight, hunt, heavy lifting, and so on. And even this is only in terms of the overall abilities of the overall population. There are many women who are MUCH stronger than most men, and there are many men who are much more patient and tolerant, more "maternal" than most women.

Does this indicate VALUE? If so, then men would be worth far less, in real terms, than women. A woman can have a baby with very little involvement from a man, especially if she wants a baby. A man may be a father and not even KNOW he's a father - his value in the life of the child he knows nothing about is practically nothing. He's a "sperm donor", and little more. Women can nurse children, and are more inclined to take care of them for longer periods of time. In some cultures, children, especially sons, will join their fathers, but even this is less of a care-taker situation and more a situation of getting free or cheap labor in exchanged for training and development.

In China, female fetus' were aborted, female infants killed, and female children "sent down" - because parents didn't want girls. Because of this, the population as a whole is no longer growing at an uncontrolled rate, fewer people are starving to a slow and painful death, and women are now considered extremely valuable. Many Chinese men are now paying premium prices for brides from other countries - because they can't afford to marry girls born in China.

In most cultures, women have great importance as spiritual or religious figures, including as goddesses and priestesses. The Catholic Church couldn't eliminate women from most cultures, so they reduced them to mothers (Virgin Mary), harlots (Mary Magdalene), or slaves (Ester). The church even tried to criminalize midwives - to assure that they had no voice in the delivery of babies. Eventually, only nuns were allowed to assist in child-birth and were supposed to let the mother suffer as much as possible.

Men have been used for warfare since the beginning of warfare - because they were so expendable. Many cultures would fight bloody wars in which most of the men were killed. After these wars, the survivors were often encouraged to take multiple wives so they could replenish the tribe, to be ready for the next war.

Of course, telling men that they are going to be sent to war, where they are most likely going to die a quick and painful death, probably only a few minutes into the battle, because they are so easily replaced, would tend to make it very hard to recruit soldiers. Instead, they try to convince all of the boys that they will survive, and that after they have survived enough battles, they will be able to go home as honored heroes, and will be able to have women, sex, power, and riches beyond their imagination. Since they only have to keep that promise to about 10% of those who enlist or are conscripted, it's a promise that is usually kept. Fathers, eager for their daughters to have husbands, would pay the husband a dowry, in effect, setting them up in business.

But what is the REAL value of men? In war, men, especially the survivors, are destroyers, killers, murderers, thieves, killing the men, boys, and mothers of the lands they conquer, taking the food, supplies, and goods, and taking the daughters of their enemies as brides. Those who are not forced into marriage will have to turn to prostitution to survive. Many will beg until they die of starvation.

So much for "Traditional" gender roles.
In modern society, it is the "feminine" skills that are more valued. It is the ability to quickly and efficiently negotiate "win-win" agreements, to cooperate and collaborate effectively, and to avoid direct confrontation and violence - that are the most prized and valued skills. The more "masculine" skills, like violence, anger, brute strength, and force, are often considered liabilities. Those who are too masculine are often convicted of crimes, sent to prison, and are taken away from the raising of children. Changes in divorce laws have made excessively masculine aggression even more of a liability, since violent and abusive men can no be more easily divorced.

[JenniferYager]

I prefer the notion that men and women have equal dignity, but are in no way equal.

We all have our place in the world, a niche that we fill better than anyone else. We should cherish that niche. Sometimes that niche is being a stay at home mom, or a working dad. Or maybe it's being a working mom with a support husband at home. Or maybe it's working in a particular job field because you feel called to it and staying single because parenthood doesn't appeal to you. The important thing is that you are satisfied with what you have.

There will ALWAYS be people that look down on you because of what color, gender, status, etc. you happen to be. If your self worth is measured by that, you will always fall short and I would never want to walk in your shoes. I've grown to admire folks in all places, from the guy that empties the septic tank to the young lady that makes coffee at Starbucks. All of them merit equal dignity, meaning they deserve a basic respect we should give all human beings. But to say they are equal is folly. Should we say Hillary Clinton is equal to the neighborhood Starbucks barrista? I wouldn't. We all have unequal abilities that are ever shifting and developing as we grow older. To try and imply that we are all equal would negate this constant desire to better ourselves.

I'll stick with equal dignity, but not equality.

[Michelle789]

Why would women want to be equal to men - it would be such a downgrade!

Interesting perspective Debbie. I don't see much of that here on this forum. Most people seem to think the opposite that it would be an upgrade.

One thing that I think really sucks about being male. Anyone who is male assigned at birth, including cross-dressers, TG, and pre-transition MTF TS, are essentially not allowed to complain about how hard it is to be a male. It even happens here on this forum. See my male privilege thread on December 9, 2013. Doing so will get you labeled as a chauvinist, insensitive, douchebag, pervert, creep, and at the very best, gay or sissy. If a woman complains how hard it is, men and women will both sympathize with you.

I agree that one thing about being male that really sucks is men are more expendable. As per a previous one of your posts Debbie, I think beta and omega males are FAR better off than alpha males. Males are found at the extremes of society, and those who are the at the top of the food chain, those alpha males who survive the wars, they are rewarded with all the male privileges, the women, the food, the power, money, and status. All the rest either die or are considered to be the scum of the earth, and are beggars or in prison.

[Jocelyn Quivers]

Nailed it, Matia. Thanks!


This is the problem. Maybe I'm reading too much into what you just said, but when you're making an argument for gender equality, you shouldn't reduce women to babymakers and/or men to boxlifters. Equality isn't about men making more babies or women lifting more boxes, it's about overcoming these barriers. We humans do it all the time, when it's cold we wear a coat, when we need to go faster we drive a car and when we need to scream louder we use the internet. However, women still get the short end of the social and economic stick, even in places that consider themselves 'modern' and civilised like the USA and western Europe. Why is it so hard to treat women equally, even in situations where babymaking or boxlifting is not even relevant?

I'll go with you were reading a little too deeply into what I said. I guess I should not have been watching the usual Fox News programs when I looked at this thread, and no I am not reducing women which includes my mother, grand mothers, aunt's, nieces, sister, wife, and every other GG to baby makers, host, etc. who have 0 say in any issues regarding their reproductive rights, let alone allowing businesses to claim they don't have to provide birth control because of the business owners personal beliefs. Ditto for lawmakers who claim there's no need for laws mandating equal pay.

[ReineD]

Everyone has a different opinion of what "equal" means. Some people take it that it means "the same". It doesn't.

Men and women are different in many respects (biologically) and they are the same in others (intellectual ability and experiencing human emotion). In the Western world, gender roles have narrowed considerably in the last few decades which means that men and women are both capable of earning an income or taking care of the kids.

I think the OP meant should men and women be valued differently in our society? Is one gender more important for our survival or overall wellbeing than the other? The answer is NO. This means that there should be equal pay and also paternity leave, and of course recognition that one gender is not better than the other.

To address the other point the OP made, which is that some members have outdated (conservative) views, these next two responses are brilliant:

The "I'm a better woman then women themselves" thing you'll see here is borderline misogynic and so is the whole concept of pretending to know what it is to be a woman because you (kinda) look like one.

In my experience, this community is about as progressive or conservative as you might expect from a group of middle-aged American men. Wearing a nurse uniform does not make you Florence Nightingale.

My problem with lot of crossdressing/crossdressers is , that the way they create their "female" image is very sexist, lot of time the fantasies and position of a woman they "create" is quite humiliating. It often comes as normal that if they are a woman, they are submissive, and do "girlie things". In many ways crossdressers can be much more sexist and create prejudice and then they will cry - i can't do this i can't do that, society would never understand it.

[bimini1]

I've always thought women were the stronger sex. I base this on observations around me down thru the years. A man has a more fragile ego. Only advantage a man has is muscular strength. And these are generalizations I'm making here. Call it sterotypical, but I believe their are gender roles specific to both sexes. It's just the way it is and I'm not leading a charge to break down those roles and equal them out. I think women are better at some things and men at others. I think that is the way reality is.

Hell, if there was not such a profound difference then maybe I would not even bother to attempt to "play for the other team" at times. I use CD to cross over to that side, to try and access it. But there is only so much I can do. I will never achieve womanhood no matter how many trappings of it I adorne myself with. But its damn sure fun trying to do so. You'll hit a ceiling.

[Rachael Leigh]

Let's put it this way when Adam an Eve were in the Garden it was an equal partnership. Which is exactly as it should be, women an men both have strength and weakness and when they find out each other's and work to make each other strong together than it works as it should.
Just my take.

[Ressie]

Everyone has a different opinion of what "equal" means. Some people take it that it means "the same". It doesn't.

No two people are equal let alone "women vs. men" the way I see it. We all have different strengths and weaknesses in more areas than can be counted. However, we shouldn't judge, but treat each other equally. Too bad women aren't treated equally in some cultures or at least with equal respect.

[ReineD]

Ressie, I don't know if you read the rest of my post .. but do you think that both men and women should be valued equally for their contributions to the human race, even though their contributions are different? Or do you think that one gender should be valued more than the other.

[Alice B]

Without question. 100% so.

[Ressie]

Hi ReineD. Yes, women and men should be valued equally. But some people contribute nothing no matter what gender they are, while some contribute way more than the average person. There should be equal pay generally speaking, but people should be paid according to how much they're worth to their employer. Once again, gender, race or other attributes shouldn't have anything to do with it.

Of course, fairness doesn't always happen in the real world. Nepotism, cronyism and sexism are some of the harsh realities in the work place.

Let me quote someone from another forum pertaining to earnings, raises etc. hopefully without getting too far off this topic.

Some basic rules of business:

* Hourly employees tend to be treated as commodities.
* Value = Benefit - Cost. This applies to products and employees.
* A decent employee should be increasing their value every year. In other words, increasing their output in excess of any increased compensation.
* It is a sound business philosophy to pay only the minimum required to get the results desired.
* Employees are not owed raises unless they were promised such under contract (e.g. unions).
* In white collar jobs that pay a livable wage, offering an employee greater autonomy, mastery and purpose will motivate them more than increased salary.
* The cost of replacing a position is always less than what the person in that position thinks.

[Alice Torn]

I don't believe this is even relevant at this time. As a lifelong single man, I have observed, that single women OUTEARN single men. Colleges and universities are dominated by women now. Over 60% of grads are female. I don't see any "war" on women. If anything, i see a "war on men." Men over 50 are losing their jobs, at an unprecedented rate, and not finding decent paying new jobs. Yes, single moms are always having a difficult time.I think their is "equality" for a long time now, in the western nations.

[Allison Quinn]

You know what nevermind

[devida]

Obviously we all want to live in a world in which all of us have certain human rights, the right to live our lives to the maximum of our talents and abilities, the right to live as equal beings regardless of gender and socio-economic status, race or gender.

Pretty much this is the contract that modern developed societies make with their citizens. Yet it doesnt really happen, does it? There are obvious reasons of power dynamics why it doesn't and we all know them. We know why men are paid more than women, why minorities are restricted in their access to the advantages that powerful majorities or sometimes powerful minorities have. Why does this happen? I think of it as higher primate power dynamics, the behavior of intelligent apes. The good news is that we are steadily transcending our evolutionary imperatives. The arc of history does indeed bend towards justice as Martin Luther King said but it does it slowly, though much faster now than ever before and maybe it is accellerating.

What can we do? We can become acutely aware of how we use power dynamics to place ourselves in favorable situations at the expense of others. We can learn how what we do and what we say oppresses other human beings, how we discount their humanness, how we undervalue them. We can also understand how so many elements of our world, our politics, our corporations, our work environments, our media, thrive on dividing and stratifying us. We can demand they stop this by refusing to deal with them, by shaming them, by calling them out, by bringing to the surface the lie that one human being is more valuable than another.

I am an optimist. I believe in the gauzy Star Trek future of human equality. I also understand that either we understand the importance of our interdependence with all other living beings or we, inevitably, extinguish ourselves, eventually, and with great pain. I think we are, ultimately, so interested in our own survival that we will do anything, even giving up our crazed obsession with placing ourselves above others, to survive.

I recognize I could be wrong.

[mechamoose]

Davidia, it isn't just limited to the 'gauzy Star Trek future', but Starfleet is certainly an idealistic and attractive version of it . While the general gist of this thread has been that we are all equal, we know that biases and mis/preconceptions mess with that... in different ways in different parts of the world. Cultural 'norms' screw with that.. in different ways depending on where we live.

While it is nice and "PC" to be talking up everyone. Who are we? Misfits. Walkers between worlds. Many ancient societies *revered* our kind.

I want equality for everyone. No question.

But right now I'm mostly concerned with those of us who hide because they feel like they don't have a choice. I'm concerned with those of us who risk themselves going out every day, *knowing* that most see past the clothes and makeup in a flat second... but do it anyway because it is Who They Are.

Think of it as an EMT doing Triage at an accident scene. They ask themselves, 'who is stable?', 'who is beyond help?', 'who can I save?'

I'd love to live in that Starfleet world, but it isn't here (yet). What can we do *now*?

<3

- MM

[lingerieLiz]

I don't know why this question was even asked. I would assume that it was asked because politicians are claiming that women are paid less in the US than men. If you really study the numbers and what they mean you will find that the difference for equal pay between the sexes are statistically insignificant. While it is true that women at the median point make less there are explanations. The fact is that women working in the same job, same education, same experience make the same money and in some fields make more.

Equal opportunity does not equal accomplishment, each of us has strengths and weaknesses.

[sanderlay]

Personally I have to believe in that optimistic future, like Gene Roddenberry's vision, despite what I see going on around me, even with the patterns of history of what people have done and continue to do. I have to look to the basic good in civilizations, in people. It all boils down to us learning from history. If we don't we sink into ignorance and forget the lessons history teaches.

Even if we return to an Agrarian society, because of some natural disaster, we can still be civilized and respect each other. When we respect each other "Equal pay for equal work" should not be a problem.

The problem is we are not respecting each other. We are making excuses to maintain an advantage that others before us have done. And that's fundamentally wrong on many levels.