Do you support Transgender rights?

[alwayshave]

I am a civil libertarian, so I don't support TG rights per se, I support all individual rights. Meaning, as long as someone's action is not infringing on another's liberty, I have no issue with what they do. I dislike rights directed to a group. Stated differently, I believe that the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment to the Constitution protects all individuals. For example, laws that would prevent a TS or CD from entering a ladies room are unconstitutional because they impede their right to present as they choose.

[bridget thronton]

I like to think I support the rights of all people to live their lives as they wish. It seems to me that transgender folks cause harm to no one (and I do not take offense at being labeled trans)

[Nadine Spirit]

I just normalize people's experiences by being myself: polite, pleasant, patient, human, humane, honest, engaged in obvious every-day activities.

Yeah, this is what I do as well.

A note on kind of a side conversation happening within this thread. Should CD be included in the T spectrum? Do you all know that many G & L do not want the B included with them? The argument is similar to the CD and T one. B's are not full time and they can disappear into society so they should not be included with the G & L's. Funny how so many marginalized people want to exclude others from "their" group, because they don't do it the way they do it. The old 'I deserve rights, but you don't' argument.

[arbon]

The first couple years of my transitioning were really hard. I had to get up and go out the door everyday anyway, and face the small community where I live, my family, friends, work, everyone that knew me. When I say hard I mean there were a lot of times I was just in tears.

I had to be an advocate for my right to live my life here and keep doing it and not give up or let anyone see how much they were hurting me no matter how much I cried at night. In the end I won (and another local trans woman who went through the same crap). Because of us my community is much more aware of and accepting of trans people.

I have sense been more involved with advocating changes in the states human rights act. It is an uphill battle in a state with a bad reputation for being anti lgbt. I have gone so far as to being arrested for the cause (along with a couple hundred other protesters).

Being honest - sometimes I get resentful when crossdressers complain about being oppressed or feeling society does not treat them fairly when the majority of them stay anonymous and safely in the closet. They don't do anything to change it, don't stick their necks out, can't be honest about who they are, then they should not complain about it.

[Eryn]

Nadine, I find the attitude odd too. I'm not TS, but I will support them even if certain TS individuals refuse to support anyone who is "not TS enough."

Civil rights are not earned. They are inalienable and apply to everyone.

[Rogina B]

I am a civil libertarian, so I don't support TG rights per se, I support all individual rights. Meaning, as long as someone's action is not infringing on another's liberty, I have no issue with what they do. I dislike rights directed to a group. Stated differently, I believe that the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment to the Constitution protects all individuals. For example, laws that would prevent a TS or CD from entering a ladies room are unconstitutional because they impede their right to present as they choose.

You don't mention discrimination at all,which surprises me.Human rights should include sexual and gender identity as well,don't you think? In housing,in the work place,etc. Nothing special,just being included in the laws... Most people on this forum are in a pretty good place in life and often have no clue as to the devastation that discrimination cause to a person's life. Most of the TS girls on here are in a pretty good place as well as many are still earning in their original occupations.However,there are many others that have been driven from the workplace,down a slippery slope,to a place in life that is hand to mouth survival,and people on here tend to forget those "T"s,many of whom would still be in their former workplace if not for their employer's right to discriminate.

[Ms. Alexis]

Actually I have to say I don't like the terms used and how they are stereotyped. "Gay Rights" have become a catch all for promoting an agenda and once the media has beaten that to death I imagine "Transgender Rights" will be the next battle cry. The truth is it should simply be Freedom of Sexuality and Freedom of Gender, Period. The media wants to make everything a battle and stir up emotions to sell advertising and make money and when it comes right down to it they don't care about "Rights" aside from the right to make money. If people really want equality and the law to back it up approach it in a common sense way.. Think about it this way - Here in this forum we all have as someone put it "a dog in the fight" to some degree or another but even when I hear the term "Gay Rights" the feelings that come up are largely negative because of the frothing at the mouth in your face stuff the media puts out. So if I were to ask most people if they believe we should all have the right to freedom of sexuality and freedom of gender I would guarantee that the level of support and/or approval I received would be dramatically higher across the board that if I used the term gay rights and transgender rights.

So getting back to the original question - No... I guess I don't support TG rights or the image of the Rocky Horror Picture Show being on every corner that is the Stereotype out there that makes many people just dig their heels in against it. I do support Freedom of Sexuality and Freedom of Gender, and most importantly Tolerance for all views because that is what Freedom is all about and making a CEO step down because he donated money to pro man / woman marriage group is no different than punishing a CEO for donating to a Cause that promotes LGBT marriage, especially when this had to be dug up from several years ago. Freedom is about being allowed to have your own beliefs regardless of their popularity and tolerating others beliefs that are different from our own.

[kimdl93]

Yes, I do support transgender rights. I am a very private individual, but I do what I can in both my personal and professional life to be a positive role model and actively support the cause of equality.

[PaulaQ]

Paula Q - are you telling me that I don't have the right to wear womens clothes, or that somehow, I have to earn that right. If I have to earn that right, just how do I do it?

I can't speak to any person specifically, and I definitely can't speak to conditions in Spain, because I don't know how things are for us there. But here in the states, things can be rough. Discrimination in employment, housing, and in just about every other situation you can think of is common for transgender people. There are a TON of users on this site who sit quietly in the closet, terrified because they DON'T want to face the fallout of coming out as a CD:
- potential loss of spouse
- potential loss of friends / family
- potential loss of status in the community
- potential loss of employment
etc.

You get caught in a dress, you lose your "man card" - that's the fear.

And you know what? Many of those fears are based in reality. At the very least, CDs tend to be subject to ridicule.

If you are tired of living like this - having your harmless secret overshadow your life, then goddammit fight to make yourselves known. There are a LOT of CDs. Way more than transsexuals. You pay taxes, you vote, and if you raise enough hell, politicians will notice.

Women did it - their lot improved. They still have a ways to go, but progress is being made.
Minorities did it.
Handicapped people did it.
Gays and Lesbians are doing it now - gay marriage is all but a certainty now in the US, maybe one supreme court case away.

Transgender folks are still fighting over whether or not we get to use public restrooms! (The arguments used against us are essentially the same arguments used to justify segregated restrooms for minorities.)
I have friends with high paying careers who've lost them by coming out as trans.
I have friends who've had difficulty obtaining housing because they were trans.

Ask yourself - is this the life you want?

[Bridget68]

I do support the rights of everyone, if it isn't hurting or bothering anyone who really cares what somebody is choosing to be. We all do this for our own reasons, whether its a fetish or we are truly Trans gendered. It is sad that society views and labels a person a freak because they choose to be a certain way. So stupid if you ask me. IT takes way more guts to openly admit that you cross dress or heavens forbid come to the conclusion that you were given the wrong sex at conception. We are who we are.

[Tina_gm]

Do I support the basic rights of TG individuals that everyone else has? of course. I guess this is politically correct week here on this site.... Not really to many on here who will think or feel otherwise. Am I going to be a dog in the fight? no, I am not.

I am not going to disrupt the life of my children, wife, workplace, family or friends due to TG rights fights. I am not going to out myself for this cause. Call me whatever you want, scared, chicken, betrayer, but I am not going to out myself for this. Especially when it comes to my kids, I will not disrupt their life and make them suffer just so I can be outspoken on TG issues. I will never throw anyone under the bus, but, I am not a dog in the fight.

[sanderlay]

I do personally support the rights of all persons, all human beings, and this of course includes Transgender persons of all labels, LGBT, what ever your sexually preference is, what ever your color, what ever your race, who ever you love is, etc...

Whenever we try or think we can exude any person their rights we go down a slippery slope that will harm all of us as a people, and most importantly ourselves.

[devida]

Harvey Fierstein has a new play about to open on Broadway called Casa Valentina. You can read about it in last Sunday's New York Times and elsewhere. The play concerns itself with a Catskills resort for cross dressers, an historical place, where heterosexual and usually married men could come with their wives and dress as women. These guys were pillars of their community and closeted. The plot of the play concerns itself with an incident that actually did destroy the historical resort when one of the founders determined that homosexuals should be excluded from the resort on the basis that, in the future, when homosexuals are still skulking around in back alleyways furtively seeking sex, heterosexual cross dressers would be proudly out and accepted by the community as men who just like to wear women's clothes.

Of course it didn't work out that way. And the reason is obvious, isn't it? Gay men and lesbians stood up, out and proud, and demanded the same rights as heterosexuals, and, as society realizes that there is no argument for social and legal oppression of gay and lesbian minorities, more and more nations have accorded them the same rights as the heterosexual majority, to the extent that not only is marriage equality clearly moving towards national acceptance but there were more hate crimes against jews last year recorded thatnagainst gays and lesbians.

That's not true for transgender, and if any of you think that your protestations that you are not transgender but simply a cross dresser are persuasive just go out there in women's clothes (not passing) and see if society at large makes that distinction. It doesn't. As far as most people are concerned, transgender, the most visible sign of which is that you are wearing the clothes of another gender, is far less acceptable than being gay or lesbian. Transgender is a direct threat to social norms in just the way that being gay or lesbian used to be.

I'm not asking for people to be activist or even out as transgender. I'm not out to every one I know though I'm clearly not wearing men's clothes and I'm wearing make up and I'm quite femme. I do allow people to just let themselves think of me as odd or weird. I'm just asking every one of us to be honest. You want to stay in the closet, stay in the closet. Your reasons may be persuasive and necessary for you. But don't kid yourself that you are not participating in the very thing that has forced you to stay in the closet and that will continue to keep you there. The LG part of the movement has clearly shown that being out and open is the only way that civil rights can be achieved. The B and T need to do the same.

[PaulaQ]

That's not true for transgender, and if any of you think that your protestations that you are not transgender but simply a cross dresser are persuasive just go out there in women's clothes (not passing) and see if society at large makes that distinction. It doesn't.

This is right on the money, and why I find it so amazing when people on this forum speak about "Oh, I don't like labels..." You don't get a choice about what society thinks about you - your opinion about whether or not their label applies to you matters not one iota.

As far as they are concerned, you are a dude in a dress, probably gay and wanting a sex change. Oh, and out to molest "real" women in the restroom. (The inherent contradictions implicit in these ideas is sort of mind blowing - but we are talking about stupidity here.)

[Anna H]

As far as any "rights" for CD's, I don't see that ever happening.

There's far too much against us.

It's easy enough to understand Gay rights and even TS rights, but
to ask for special protections so we can go about cross-dressed
is a fantasy I wouldn't even remotely expect to ever happen.

It's not us who decides these things. It's the *Vast* majority, and
they're never going to view us with any favor. We're squarely in
the category of being "deviants"...at best.

Gays, and even TS, very often don't care for us and won't want
us included in any rights. Our presence would be harmful to their
cause.

Our problem is, we're all over the map. There are too many types
of CD's. Anybody who wants to put on a wig and lipstick can be
a CD. We wouldn't even defend one another when it comes right
down to it.

Take a look on any of the "tube" sites. See all the variations
of CD's there are and it's too easy to know within seconds that
the majority of us would want to distance ourselves as far as
possible from that sort of public behavior. They "are" CD's...
but not the "right kind" of CDs. So who decides who's the good
ones or the bad ones.

If laws are debated before they're considered to become laws, then
CD's are bad news for making those kinds of decisions. It's too
easy to make us look very badly and nobody fighting for legitimate
rights will want that sort of thing even mentioned.

It's easy to know what a gay person is. It's easy to understand
a TS person. It's reasonable to sympathize with them. But who the
heck are these odd CD people. What exactly are they asking for.

Being realistic may not be fun, but it's not a good idea to ignore
reality. There's far too much against us.

-

[KaceyR]

I also support whenever I can. And I am hoping I can do more in the future.
However, I will state, that along with my newness to CDing (1/2 year), my knowledge on TG issues has been learned at the same time. Up until CDing times, my own thoughts or knowledge and experience has kind of been only in the GL range. (Never had thought on sexuality vs gender difference really).

1 coworker, L, now for many years. She was let go from work unfairly..but not due to 'L' that I can tell. More done in a tricky way based on medical issues... Indications are she was considered a medical liability and after leave for back surgery issues, when she came back she was told position was removed. He'll of a way to let someone go...she could've been applying ahead of time if they'd let her know ahead of time. Oh and that position? Another new one created and filled shortly after.
2: friend..'G' - ham radio ties even. Knew him as he finished high school -he'd come out near the end of that. Went to other state + college, later found someone and married (same sex). Doing well now.
3: friend 'G' - about same age really. Known for some time.. Only was told last year or 2.

Now while I understood some of their hardships, I'd not really broadcast support group-wise. Oh I supported the individuals, but not the cause. Thru this last year though, I've gotten a bit more vocal...especially with more stupid phobic laws being done which I've viewed as illogical hatred and bigotry. (Also I'm a romantic..hate to see these marriages toyed around with by legislators (and religion) that seem it have no concept of love...). So I've been a bit more vocal at times on my male Facebook side (hitting 300+ people thanks to gaming I've done-including a few evangelical type of people too.). But not yet out there in standing activistic support. I hope to a bit at the least this year during pride events.

So now I've continued that into the trans side of things. And just starting to contact the local groups and plan to hopefully be more involved. I'm a bit sad to see the disparity between LG to the other 'letters' at times. Were all wanting the same thing, equality and freedom to express and coexist and have same capabilities to live as everyone else without issue. Sex and gender meanings are still misunderstood by most unfortunately.

I was kind of amazed and glad that my workplace (Sears) did fully support a transitioner ~2-3 years back. She still works there. Might have seen her once (just a 'good morning' though due to shift timing and building area differences). Hope it's been well for her. So I guess there's still hope for some.

So summary: yup I try to support all the 'letters'.

[Bria]

To answer the original question, yes I support TG rights. I'm CD but guess I fit under the TG umbrella (see Isha's arguments on this). Do I march and carry banners, no, I've not had the opportunity. However I have volunteered to assist a group that presents to small groups at a local university, Ive not been asked to help yet.

Having read on this forum of the many trials and tribulations of those who are transitioning, and talking to people in a local "nite out" group, has made me aware that the preceptions of the general public need to change.

My two cents.

Hugs Bria

[DCUnitedfan1988]

I do not actively go out and support equal rights, but do want everyone to be treated as equals. I think most of my support goes to my stepmom.

[Katey888]

This is definitely an interesting discussion... one that, sadly, I don't feel like I can contribute very much positively - but I'll try anyhows... (sorry - this is long..)

Firstly, I think it's interesting we have a bit of the label issue coming up again - but I think in this discussion it is key. If you are wanting to get legislators, politicians, commercial interests, etc. behind any sort of rights, you have to both agree what the definitions (labels) are AND make it easy enough for the aforementioned schmucks that run countries, write legislation and vote them into enforceable statutes... If we can't agree between us (not that we're anybody other than just a discussion forum, after all...) then who else will understand..?????

And we can't seem to agree - the OP states things like 'T-spectrum' ; 'T community' - sorry, but what do these things mean?
Then we have the CD vs TG vs TS wrangle.... and it is a wrangle, and I understand why - because at one end, the closeted/ fetish CD doesn't need any new rights... existing rights serve them perfectly well, imho.

At the other end - TS should be adequately protected by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (you are, after all, human...) and other national laws - but getting those rights recognised and acted upon requires votes - from legislators and politicians... who in turn derive their tenure from votes from the populace (in simplistic terms) - Kate H has hit on this point already - unless you can make it easy for people to understand what you're asking for, and unless you can get people to agree with the sense of injustice, you'll get nowhere. How do you get them to listen? Simple definitions and message + NUMBERS... There's the next challenge that Paula's highlighted... very few TS folk - not a good economic bet...

So let's pull in the TG folk... Ahhh - my sector - or is it? We can't really agree on that either. If you have no gender uncertainty, are you TG? (Thanks Isha...) Well, I think so - but who the heck am I? I have no uncertainty that I'm male, and no desire to be different. I appear to make a curiously good female (crude appearance measure!) and I feel good about it, but I don't know why...?!
Is it more than a fetish? Absolutely.
Do I need to take my feminine portrayal into public? Absolutely not. (I might one day - but I'm pretty sure I don't need to)
Do I think I'm TG? Absolutely yes - because wtf I am doing this for otherwise!

But - how do you draw a line between me and - say - Lucy Bella? There surely are no physiological tests for this, and there probably aren't even any reliable psychometric tests to prove this either...

So...
Can't agree between ourselves...
Can't make it easy for others to understand...
Can't agree on definitions...
Definitions can't be proven with anything approaching anecdotal, let alone, scientific certainty...
We as any sort of community don't have the numbers to swing this anywhere...

Which leaves me on the sidelines and in the closet with mutt... If anything, our homework has to be to get all that straight with ourselves, before we go out to find our 'die in a ditch' position...

So HOW and WHEN does that happen...?

BTW - I totally support the ideal that these rights should be there... but it will take a lot more clout to make it happen...

Katey x

[Audrey Sis]

I'm with Paula and devida on this. My caveat is that my daughter is 20 and accepting of me, and I live in a very liberal town, so perhaps I have a better shot at pushing boundaries than many feel they have to opportunity to do.

Nothing ever has changed for "fringe" groups Unless people have been made "uncomfortable." Men were upset about the notion of women voting. Caucasians the same about African-Americans voting and omg, sitting Near them on the bus. Heterosexuals were (sure many still are) about Homosexuals marrying. (Each Other, btw... Heteros don't have to marry Gays ) ..

So, to say that the general population should not be made to feel uncomfortable by a "man in a dress" is an invalid argument in my book. This IS what must happen to bring about change. "Nothiing changes if nothing changes." I forget who I'm quoting there, but it's simple physics.

I again admit I'm in the enviable position of starting a new job wherein the Employee Manual specifically protects gender identity as well as gender and sexual orientation. When I interviewed for the position I left on my clear nail polish, studs in both ears, bracelets.. While I wasn't really pushing much in the way of gender perception, I feel comfortable exploring with my co-workers what may constitute appropriate attire for me. I'm not planning to wear mini-skirts and fishnet stockings, but those are inappropriate in any office At the office, it's about the work. If I and my co-workers are productive, the rest is irrelevant.

Around the neighborhood, I live in downtown Santa Cruz, my bare legs and cute toenail polish are pretty obvious. I aim to keep pushing such boundaries as far as I feel comfortable.

So to answer the question: I do support TG rights.

Blessings to all,
Audrey

[Tina_gm]

this probably won't win me any popularity awards on this site but oh well... but what rights are we talking about anyway? Are we arrested if we go out dressed? incarcerated? are we not allowed to vote? Are we not counted in the census?

Is there at times unfairness? Absolutely. But those unfair situations which the TG community finds themselves in is not a group all by itself. It's life and it's the human condition. Ask the 5'4" bald guy how fair life is. I don't think he asked for his plight in life anymore than anyone else, and don't think he hasn't had to fight a lot harder for anything he has attained in life either. Granted, society may have more sympathy toward him than of CDers, but in reality, they are not all that much more fair toward the short bald guy.

As for public restrooms... if dressed, and unless we are 100% undetectable, neither men or women are going to be too comfortable with us going into either bathroom. I say deal with it which ever bathroom you decide to use. That is not a rights issue, that is a society issue. If someone physically assaults us because of how we are dressed, whether it be because of a bathroom we used or any other reason, they do not get a free pass for doing so. THEY still get arrested for assault. We can say because we are TG we should not be discriminated against, and you would be correct. Stand in line, there are a whole lot of people getting discriminated against for any number of reasons, including being horizontally challenged and follicly deficient. It doesn't make it right, but those are society issues, not human rights issues.

[PaulaQ]

@ gendermutt

Most employers don't fire bald guys, or refuse to hire them in the first place
Most rental companies won't deny an apartment to a bald guy
Most doctors don't shun bald guys because they'll "scare off their patients with hair"
Few women decide "OMG, I can no longer live with you - you lost your hair and YOU AREN'T A MAN ANYMORE!"
Bald dudes don't have to worry about someone calling the cops when they use the restroom, and having the cop demand "do you have a letter from your doctor?"
Bald dudes don't have to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to get their driver's licenses changed to "bald".
41% of bald dudes don't attempt suicide because their situation is so desperate.

They are just bald dudes. If they care enough - they can get cosmetic or medical treatment for their condition. No one thinks twice about it. No one tells them "OMG! Are you SURE you don't want to be bald anymore?"

Oh yeah, they probably don't have to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to get treatment for their baldness.

The local paper and local parents are unlikely to push for the removal of a bald teacher - because "young kids might be influenced by that at an impressionable age."

Please explain to me again how you think our issues are trivial. I don't see this stuff as much different than telling certain races that they need to ride on the back of the bus. Or that they can only live in certain parts of town, or have certain kinds of jobs.

@Katey - "We must hang together, ladies...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately" (with apologies for paraphrasing Ben Franklin)

We have to band together if we want these situations to improve. If you don't feel comfortable putting on your favorite garments and walking in public, going to your job, telling your wife, going about your daily life as yourself, or at least the fragment of yourself that needs to be let out from time to time, then you are part of the problem.

Society doesn't WANT you to exist, and they damn sure don't want transsexuals like me to exist. They'll sort of tolerate the really pretty, totally passable ones of us - because we can pretend we were born women, and they can too. (Well, if the state cooperates - some won't allow you to change your birth certificate in a way that hides your birth gender.)

It's really about numbers. I hope the Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual folks keep doing the heavy lifting for us Transgender folks, I really do. If they don't, there simply aren't enough transsexuals to make a difference. And many of us go back in the closet post transition too, just trying to live the lives we felt we should've been born into. At best though, we are 0.3% of the population - it's simply not enough for them to care about us.

And indeed, the scary part is we make an EXCELLENT scapegoat for society's moral failures. Small, unpopular, invisible - perfect for politicians to use to rile up the folks.

[Zylia]

Paula, the issues you named are not trivial. This may or may not apply to gendermutt, but this is the second thread in a week (after the one about gender equality) in which people say something along the lines of "there are other problems, so let's not try and fix this one". There's a sad trend on the internet to try and sound like a contrarian detached from all earthly concerns, which is really easy if you're fairly male, fairly white and fairly privileged to begin with. Every problem is easily solved if you reduce everything to numbers, but you obviously lose your humanity in the process.

[Tina_gm]

The issues Paula brings up are by no means trivial, but they are primarily TS issues. I am responding to rights that are denied to CDers, which there are really not much in the way that are denied. While I stand behind the TS community to not be denied rights, when I make such a post as I did it pertains to CDers, as this is the main MTF cross dressing section, so I made my post in relation to CDers.

[PaulaQ]

@ gendermutt - if the issues are TS only, why are so many here afraid of facing them. You get to pass as a dude when you need to, as a CDer - what I'm suggesting is that your reliance on that is part of the problem. You should be able to rent an apartment en femme. You should be able to go to work en femme - or at least not fear consequences if you come out.

And yes, this is also a shameless plea for help for us TSs. If the GLB folks dump us, which is not impossible, then I fear we will rather quickly revert to the days of "pass or die."