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Thread: Transphobia: Always was, and will always be

  1. #1
    Valley Girl Michelle789's Avatar
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    Question Transphobia: Always was, and will always be

    After seeing a few threads about transphobia related subjects, here is my next question for everyone.

    There is a saying "always was, will always be"

    1. Do you believe that transphobia is something that "always was, will always be"? Do you believe that transphobia has existed since the beginning of time, and will exist eternally? Do you believe that transphobia will get worse, or fade away in the future?

    2. If you had to pick one of these, how would you describe the progression of transphobia?
    a. Always was, will always be
    b. Transphobia has existed since the beginning of time, but will slowly disappear in the future
    c. Once upon a time, transpeople and transanimals were accepted, we went through a phase of transphobia for 6000 years (give or take) due to civilization, and transphobia will slowly disappear in the future
    d. Once upon a time, transpeople and transanimals were accepted, and transphobia slowly emerged and will just get worse and worse
    e. Transphobia has always existed, and will just keep getting worse in the future

    3. What percentage of the population do you believe actually treats us with respect if they know we're trans? Do you think it varies from place to place, with some places being drastically more trans accepting than others? I have heard everything from that as many as 90% of the population will accept you if you're trans, to 99% of the population thinks we're not even human.

    Edit: New Question

    4. In light of the other day's bomb threat at Trans Pride L.A., do you think that we transgender people are treated worse than terrorists are?
    Last edited by Michelle789; 06-18-2014 at 01:30 AM. Reason: Edit: New Question
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  2. #2
    Junior Member Saepe's Avatar
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    People always fear what they do not know. The night gets darkest just before the dawn.

    Ergo, the root of transphobia is in misunderstanding. There was a time when, silly as it sounds, left-handed people were feared. People got called perverted or demon-possessed for any number of misunderstood things that science had yet to explain, or for which the scientific explanation had not yet reached public consciousness.

    Building public understanding of trans* issues means bringing trans* issues to public consciousness. There's no subtle way to do that. So, for a short while, the people who learn more slowly or refuse to change understanding will continue to provide friction, and the increased discussion will make these people more aggravated for the time being. So it will have to get worse before it gets better. Hopefully not by much, and I'm definitely generalizing, but that's just how these things go.

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    A certain percentage of any population has to hate something. I have more than a passing familiarity of history. In medieval times everyone hated jews. They were murdered and tortured quite frequently. Then people hated on minorities for a while. Then whoever we were at world war with. Hate seems endemic unfortunately. The trans community is relatively safe thing to hate on these days, so the bigots focus on whoever they can.
    As Saepe said only repeated exposure to the community and dialogue will stifle those silly fears. Then they will move on to the next thing to hate. In the meantime we keep our heads up

  4. #4
    Silver Member Rogina B's Avatar
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    The best we can do is to put ourselves out there in the mainstream..everywhere..Unfortunately,tolerance does not mean acceptance and acceptance doesn't guarantee inclusion...But we ae gaining ground every day.
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  5. #5
    MIDI warrior princess Amy Fakley's Avatar
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    depends what you mean by "transphobia" I guess.

    If you mean people who are literally terrified of transgender folks then, honestly yes ... I suspect there aren't many of them, but they have probably always been here and always will be. There are people who are terrified of clowns too ... and dogs, etc.

    Now, if you mean "transphobia" in the less scientifically precise sense, as in "ignorant-assed mf-ers who hate on TG people because they need an outlet for their impotent anger at the world and anyone different is an easy target" ... well ... those same people probably hate on just about any easily defined "other" (as long as they don't have to think too hard about it) ... young people, old people, left people, right people, foreign people, gay people, people who like a different football team ... the list of targets is endless for these kind of idiots and the cynical a-holes who make their living herding them.

    Empires have been built solely by exploiting this weakness in human psychology, over and over again throughout history. That too, probably isn't going away any time soon.

    However, what is changing, slowly but surely, is who the socially acceptable targets are.
    In the 50's it was acceptable to get your hate on about race, but that changed. Then in the 80's it was really pretty acceptable to hate on gay people. That too has changed.

    In spite of the fact that the moron-wranglers will always be able to use their billion-watt megaphones on TV and radio to rile up the masses, the bottom line is that every single day their herd gets smaller and smaller. Things are changing, and maybe there will be blowback, and maybe things will get worse before they get better ... but they will get better, and there's not a damn thing the haters can do about it.
    "Why shouldn't art be pretty? There are enough unpleasant things in the world." -Pierre-Auguste Renoir

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    Platinum Blonde member Ressie's Avatar
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    Phobia used to mean fear of, now it means prejudice of? Language keeps changing I guess. I'm more likely to believe something with lots of evidence and scientific study to support it. I know nothing about the complete history of transgender conditions or behaviors so I won't even take a stab it's future.
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  7. #7
    Junior Member Saepe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ressie View Post
    Phobia used to mean fear of, now it means prejudice of? Language keeps changing I guess. I'm more likely to believe something with lots of evidence and scientific study to support it. I know nothing about the complete history of transgender conditions or behaviors so I won't even take a stab it's future.
    I think it only means "prejudice against" in the case where an irrational fear lends itself to prejudice. For example, if two people have arachnophobia, one of them might shy away from spiders and the other might attempt to kill any spider it sees in a preemptive strike.

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    I think hate will be around until the end of time. It has been around since the beginning of time. And there is STILL a very large percentage of people who hate blacks, Jews, gays, Muslims, etc. I highly doubt that trans people will ever be mainstream and accepted by the masses. I just don't think it's ever going to happen. It's just too threatening of a proposition, especially for males. I would hazard a guess that 99% of "every day", "regular", "normal" "red blooded" males will never accept trans-women. It's too threatening to their manhood. And we know that, still, men predominately rule the world. I would hazard another guess that when all is said and done that about 20% of the population will be accepting of the trans population. That's about where it will top out. Sure, it will vary some from place to place. It only stands to reason that if more trans people, along with gays and lesbians, live in a certain area, that the percentage of acceptance would increase in that area. Keep in mind that "non acceptance" doesn't mean that those people who harbor that view will do harm to trans people. Most people obey the law and it will not be any different in regards to harming trans people. But, there will still be discrimination. They won't want anything to do with you. They won't include you in activities. They might not even talk to you. I don't think trans-phobia will ever fade away. A lot of people just aren't comfortable with different. Don't get your hopes up that there's ever going to be mass acceptance. It just ain't gonna happen. There's a LOT more to acceptance than laws and workplace rules against job discrimination or laws against housing discrimination. You can't legislate or force people to genuinely like you.

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    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    This is another insightful observation.
    Is there a full moon?

    Answer to question three, most appear condescending but I think about ten percent treat us with genuine respect.
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    The general population don't get it. From the outside looking in, for those not educated on the topic, trans can look distinctly like mental illness. Mental illness gets as bad a rap as trans. I've witnessed this first hand with close friends and family!

    No one here likes the big 'why?' question, but reality is, I don't think Joe Public is going to embrace this without more info. When they know why, they'll quit assuming you're just doing this to annoy everyone and get on side. Until then, I don't see anything changing any time soon. And no, personally I don't think trans has been around forever. I think this is a modern issue (a few thousand years or so) and we will one day discover what that issue is, be it environment, genetics, or evolution at work. Either way, you're definitely fighting a unique battle. I will carry a picket sign if you need

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    1 and 2: "Always was, always will be" is not an argument, it's the lack of an argument. In a fact-based world, the only constant is the total energy of an isolated system (or, if you're more philosophically inclined, change). If anyone utters those words about something, it means that you cannot have a meaningful conversation about that subject without getting past that fallacy first. Transphobia is reactionary, a product of a highly evolved civilisation such as ours, just like transgenderism itself in some sense. "There has always been transphobia" is conjecture, easily disproven by cultures nowadays that do have something along the lines of a third or neutral gender. I don't believe that transphobia is innate as much as there's a evolutionary disposition for things people consider 'natural', i.e. heteronormativity, cisnormativity, but we're getting past that as well.

    3. Statistics are not a matter of opinion. Time and place obviously are factors and in my experience there's a 'NIMBY' effect as well: people actually are OK with transgenderism as long as it's not a close friend or family member that does the transitioning. I see quite a few parallels with LGB acceptance.

    4. Hell no. I cannot really explain without involving too much politics, but unless transgender people are denied basic human rights in the US, including those which are legally protected by the US Constitution (Amendment VI and VIII come to mind), I don't think that transgender people are treated worse than 'terrorists' are. A (fake) bomb threat is the result of a single (bigoted) nutcase's actions.

  12. #12
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    Hi Michelle . . . in response.

    1. Do you believe that transphobia is something that "always was, will always be"? Do you believe that transphobia has existed since the beginning of time, and will exist eternally? Do you believe that transphobia will get worse, or fade away in the future?

    I don't believe transphobia has been around forever and is more a by-product of what a specific society values. For example, in many Native tribes back in history men who cross-dressed and took on a typical feminine role in the tribe were considered "two-spirited" and in most cases revered. In various point of European history, cross dressing was considered vogue and while not openly accepted it was tolerated among the social elite. However today, certain societal, cultural values say bad and with saying something is bad or goes against what is morally right, come narrow minded transphobic idiots who think they are on the side of rightousness.

    2. If you had to pick one of these, how would you describe the progression of transphobia?

    As above not around for ever and will it get better? I am a bit of an optimist and I believe as we evolve emotionally as a species, people will begin to see others for who they are and not their idea of who they should be. Of course for this to happen we have to shed a few Draconian beliefs related to culture and religion. So will happen in my life time? Not likely. Perhaps fifty or so years out things will start to get better.

    What percentage of the population do you believe actually treats us with respect if they know we're trans? Do you think it varies from place to place, with some places being drastically more trans accepting than others? I have heard everything from that as many as 90% of the population will accept you if you're trans, to 99% of the population thinks we're not even human.

    Acceptance is a tricky concept and hard to pin down. I have been out a lot recently and have had little issue, good interactions and some rudeness. Do those who pay me no mind, act politely when I engage them, accept me? Hard to say, they could just be being polite and civil but not truly accept who I am "Poor guy, obviously tres confused so I'll be nice". Are they going to want to be my friend? Don't know? When I it comes to my family and friends, I can say yes, I have acceptance. As far as percentage goes, I could not hazard a guess because I don't have any real baseline to work from. However, if I base it on observation (people just not caring or being nice) then I would say about 80% of my time out is uneventful with 20% seeing smatterings of rude, ignorant and somewhat aggressive. Are certain places more likely to be trans friendly? Well lets say this gal won't be hanging out at any Neo-Nazi Skinhead Bars any time soon . However, I think on average you are more likely to find an accepting crowd (again acceptance is a relative term) in a large cosmopolitan center. This may have nothing to do with acceptance but more a factor of a busy group of people used to seen oddities and not paying attention or caring. Likewise you are more likely to find a non-accepting crowd in small redneck community but then again who really knows?

    4. In light of the other day's bomb threat at Trans Pride L.A., do you think that we transgender people are treated worse than terrorists are?

    I am with Zylia on this one . . . Hell no. Unless we are all of a sudden going to get rendered to foreign countries or locked down without probable cause. People might think we are weird, they might be afraid they'll catch something from us but I don't think we are going to be profiled, singled out at airports as potential threats.

    Hugs

    Isha

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    The European Conquerors of the New World brought it over ...

    .
    with their religions, which their leaders imposed on the natives.

    Many of the Native American tribes were accepting of Two-Spirit people.

    I have nothing against people who have religious beliefs, just against the fundamentalist types.

    See the article about the native American We'Wha, who was invited to the White House by President Cleveland in 1886, here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We%27wha .
    Last edited by tina99; 06-18-2014 at 05:38 AM.

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    Hi Michelle, People will always be scared of what they don't understand.
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  15. #15
    I don't think crossdressing will ever truly be excepted just like homosexuality which is fair enough not everyone is going to be on board with it everyone has their ways and beliefs of what should and shouldn't be right and you have to respect that, the problem comes when those beliefs go from a simple "naa i don't like it" to hatred then to violence, if ever these things are considered normal in our society then it certainly wont be in my life time, in the mean time we have to live with it as best we can.

    We should count our blessing really that we can do what can with in moderation with out being strung up, I'm just glad I live in the western world namely England because I would never in a million years dress like a girl or admit I was gay in other counties such as Russia or any of the middle eastern counties that kill our sort and crossdressers you do hear these horror stories it's shocking it must be awful for those who have those feelings inside and can;t do anything about it it's no wonder folks come in their thousands to live here or the states in search for a better life
    Last edited by CrossJess; 06-18-2014 at 09:20 AM.

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    AKA Lexi sometimes_miss's Avatar
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    I think a lot of it comes down to an ingrained feeling of 'us vs them' that you see pretty much everywhere: it starts as soon as kids choose up sides in games, to the rabid behavior of teenagers in say, sporting events, then the deadly mass murdering of people when their religions clash. There's no rational for it; it's basically training for combat against other tribes or cultures, to advance the survivablity of your own tribe which is likely to include some of your DNA, so that yours will continue to survive and theirs, will not. Then one step further down the whirlpool, where anything that might make a male of the community suspect for ANY type of feminine behavior, which could be seen as a threat to the survivability of the entier culture. And the feeling of that potential threat raises feelings of wanting to eliminate people that behave that wy from their community/society/culture. We CAN educate people so that they no longer feel insecure about having males who express femininity withing their ranks, but it is going to take a long time before that becomes universal; religions are very strongly held beliefs, and among those who are religious many feel that male and female behavior should be mutually exclusive, to the point where they feel it mandatory to exterminate anyone who doesn't follow their beliefs. And because children of those people become indoctrinated with those religious beliefs before they can think for themselves, it is often almost impossible to change the feelings of those people by trying to educate them about acceptance and tolerance.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  17. #17
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    hmmm, okay.

    If you are an out crossdresser, or out trans woman your likely to run into some ugliness from time to time. You may experience some discrimination and occasional harassment. Some people may roll their eyes or not want to identify you correctly.Sometimes a real looser may try to do something that will really hurt you. But that stuff is not like an everyday deal generally, hopefully?

    BUT - Most decent people will treat you respectfully and will not think you are sub human or anything like that. They wont.

    It has gotten better, it keeps getting better. Can you imagine trying to transition 10 years ago? 20 years ago? 30 years? No thanks!

    A lot of reference to native cultures and stuff but don't think that they had it easy in any way, life would have sucked back then to be trans.

    I think this is the best time to be out or to transition in the western countries that there has ever been.


    4. In light of the other day's bomb threat at Trans Pride L.A., do you think that we transgender people are treated worse than terrorists are?
    lol, are you serious?

    Nope!!

  18. #18
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    People's attitudes are changing. We live in a moment in time, and as such, we have little understanding of what went before us, and limited capability to perceive incremental changes. I would submit that you've grossly overstated the case - I would bet that, in any reliable survey, something close to a majority of people, regardless of religion, ideological bent or region would be indifferent to transgendered people and a significant minority would be supportive of our rights as human beings.

    Yes there are going to be knuckle draggers who make threats. There are going to be those who feel intimidated by the changes they see in the world around them, but with each passing day, they and their ideas will fade away.

    Why should we feel as though we are treated like terrorists? Terrorists are not the victims of threats or intimidation - they are the perpetrators. And their targets are targets of convenience. If it hadn't been a Trans Pride day, it might have been a Thanksgiving Parade.

    Threats are generally intended to be disruptive. Usually, a genuine attack isn't preceded by a warning. This was most likely the product of one twisted mind, incubating his hatred for society in a cellar somewhere.
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  19. #19
    Gold Member bridget thronton's Avatar
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    I believe people are becoming more tolerant - but still not safe every where

  20. #20
    Gold Member DonnaT's Avatar
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    Transphobia (and homophobia) appears to have begun with (mis)interpretations of writings that made it into the bible.

    Well meaning missionaries carried these bible teachings around the world. One known reason for the change in acceptance of two-spirited people by Native Americans.
    DonnaT

  21. #21
    Martini Girl Katey888's Avatar
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    I really like Amy F's rant... errr.. response to these questions...

    I don't think transphobia has been around for long - I think it is a societal construct that just slots in with a whole load of other bigotries whether that's related to race, religion, sexuality, football team, country, town, if you have freckles... it's nonsensical, but nonetheless, bigotry exists and it can be extremely dangerous in circumstances when times are hard and the plebs sordida can be rallied to target scapegoats... As society as a whole becomes wealthier, there will be more acceptance - legislation will help to a degree...

    I'm afraid I must admit to being a bit of a misanthrope - in the wrong circumstances, even muggles can turn a blind eye to the most heinous of acts... plenty of examples of that in the past 50-75 years I'm afraid...

    And no, I don't think we're treated worse than terrorists... anyway, they deserve to be treated terribly badly!

    Katey x
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