Thinking of you Leigh. And admire your decision. I'd like to think I'd do the same if it came to the crunch. But I also have to say, it's just clothes, you are not a bad person because you CD.
Best,
Christen x
Thinking of you Leigh. And admire your decision. I'd like to think I'd do the same if it came to the crunch. But I also have to say, it's just clothes, you are not a bad person because you CD.
Best,
Christen x
“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
and rightdoing there is a field.
I'll meet you there.” - Rumi.
It's certainly your choice. Let me offer one bit of advice. The notion that you or any other CDr is selfish gets tossed about a good deal. Miss usually associated with guilt, either self imposed or applied by ones partner. Guilt for wanting to satisfy in some way, a deeply ingrained personal need. And it seems one is selfish for not happily abandoning oneself for the greater good. I do not feel that being a CDr should require a life of denial nor emotional martyrdom. One could quite reasonably ask for some measure of compromise. Absent that willingness to compromise, then the question becomes who is being selfish.
Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one.
Eleanor Roosevelt
I think that trying to deny a fundamental part of who you are, because it makes your partner uncomfortable is likely to be an exercise in misery, and ultimately futility. My wife was also the love of my life, and my best friend. When I came out to her, the only solution she could tolerate was for me to make all of my gender issues go away. But I could not compromise on that and survive. Perhaps you aren't as miserable as I was - but still, I bet this won't be pleasant for you. I can understand your desire to keep your life intact - I wanted mine to stay together too. It didn't though.
What I have found is that most people in my life don't want me to change - at all. Most of all my wife. Her view of me needed to be this steady, unwavering, strong but silent man. You can view either them, or me, as selfish, depending on your perspective, but in my case, the situation was literally either transition, or die. So I guess they'd rather I'd have died, leaving their views of me intact. :/ You can judge for yourself which is the most selfish behavior.
I wish you the best, Leigh, and I hope this works out for you both. Sometimes, though, things aren't meant to be - especially if only one person can compromise much. My wife would much rather I'd continued to swallow my misery, and silently suffer. Lots of people are like that, in my experience.
Paula, you bring up a good point when you say with reference to your wife, "When I came out to her...".
Think about it. I dare to say that most of the threads here about relationship issues that eventually end up with extreme compromise (if that's what you call one side giving up their POV completely) or utter destruction come out of relationships where the trans issues were disclosed after marriage.
Frankly, because I was an early-adopter of disclosure (having told my wife not even 3 or 4 months into dating), I cannot fathom what it must be like to feel compelled or obligated to disclose post-marriage. And while I may be of the opinion that such disclosure beats the heck out of hiding and subterfuge, I am thankful that for whatever reason, I never had to contemplate such things.
Lori mentions a pleasing mentality that may be prevalent here. Perhaps true, it may arise out of the fact that the women in our lives hold a lot of the cards when these things are disclosed post-marriage. There is zero leverage in any argument when blame for the entire scenario can easily fall on the side of the trans person. Think of the oft-used quotes...
I didn't sign on for this.
Your hiding this for so many years was simply lying.
Makes me think the pleaser mentality is just a manifestation of guilt because just looking at the two quotes above, there are few, if any, logical rebuttals (as if logic can even start to rebut emotion in the first place).
So keep falling on your swords. I'll be curious as to how sustainable the relationship proves to be in the long run.
Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)
My wife has just gotten to the point where she will let me go out with some CD friends, but she doesn't want any part of it. In her words, she struggles with it. So I try to keep my times out to about 2 per month or less. But beyond that, I fall on the other side of the line. If my wife were to give me and ultimatum, her or the crossdressing, she might be surprised about my choice. We will have been married 36 years in about 2 weeks.
Hi, I'm Steffi and I'm a crossdresser... And I accept and celebrate both sides of me. Or, maybe I'm gender fluid.
My guess is that in many cases it won't be. Or maybe it'll last - but it won't be much fun for anyone involved.Originally Posted by Sara Jessica
I tried to suppress my gender issues for 50 years. I tried, really, really hard. I didn't want this in my life. I never wanted to be a woman - at least not with a male body, reviled by much of society. I just am one, like it or not. In the end, for me, no compromise was possible.
Leigh, in reading this I am at once so terribly sad for you and so very thankful my wife is in the "just clothes" camp. Nevertheless, I have many times tried to disown myself, have purged and have vowed to "fight it." I was so miserable and despondent. I chose to be OK with me and not live that way.
I wish you all the best.
One thing I will say on this is even having this as a part of me so long I was not prepared for the emotion of loss right after the purge. I had done it before but this time was different and I'm sure it's because I had finally understood it wasn't going away I accepted it and was really trying to have my wife do that too.
So fast forward 2 weeks after the purge and I was depressed and well I just said I'm going to go buy something so bought a sleep short set but this time I decided I would buy my wife something nice too.
Wow it was so amazing how nice it felt to shop again and also try and make sure I don't leave out my wife.
It made me realize this is very much and emotional part of me and it's just crazy.
I still doubt I will ever get back to where I was but now I do understand it better
Leigh, we all make alot of hard decisions in our life even those that have nothing to do with dressing. Relationships are a 2 way street and it doesn't matter what anyone thinks here when it comes to the decisions and choices you make when it comes down to YOUR marriage and YOUR dressing habits. Call it Pink Fog or selfishness, it is your realization of the situation and your move to save what you could in your marriage. There is no I in relationship. This is the way it is for both of you RIGHT NOW and you will both work together to get past this, one of many hurdles which comes with the territory. You are a strong person to make these choices and your conscience will be something you will be able to live with for the right reasons. Good luck with all of this GF! ;.)
I'm going to put myself out on a limb here and say this--------"Everyone must choose his own path to follow and sometimes that path is a very tough one" First of all, I don't know why I like to CD, I have been doing it for over 50 years now in one form or another. I too have Purged for the good of my marriage and have returned to do the same thing, secretly at times but I have returned. I have confided in my wonderful wife who is not thrilled about it to say the least but she tolerates it. I don't go "full boat" but I do dress in lingerie and in casual clothing. Compromise is a key element here and if there is no compromise than there will be an ending. Good Luck to you and your wife.
Molly
"To thine own self be true"
I fear that we are playing with fire on one hand and something reasonable on the other. If you suffer even a mild form of GID then psychologically you will actually do more harm then good trying to suppress your CDing. On the other hand, if you truly feel it is a fetish or something you have a mental handle on, then perhaps you can "take one for the team?" I wish you luck, but like PaulaQ and Kimdl93 have stated, its a two way street, and both have to work together because at least for me I don't see how this part of me is particularly selfish, and burying it may in fact end my life earlier then I wish it to end! (Through stress, depression, etc.)
And logically, Sara Jessica wondered how to rebutt "I didn't sign on for this." The answer lies in the "for better or worse" part of the deal. (and the tiny little issue of you marry the whole person, so they wouldn't be the same if this little matter of crossdressing never exsisted to begin with!)
But that's the problem - most wives never meet the 'whole person' until many years later. If they had, they might have made the decision not to continue the relationship and spared everyone this heartache. Read the thread in Loved Ones asking GGs if they'd have married their H if they'd known all the facts about his crossdressing. Most, including myself, said no.
So are we wives really selfish? Or did we just never get the opportunity to choose the spouse and life we really wanted? That's an incredibly confronting thing to realise after many years of marriage. I don't know much about Leigh's situation, but if she came out to her wife after many years, then her wife's identity must be shattered. As now is Leigh's, by permanently purging this side of herself.
There are no winners hereBut, as Sara Jessica pointed out, full honesty at the very start of a relationship usually prevents this situation.
And yet you wonder why so many of us aren't honest. Of course we lie - we get rejected when we don't. And not just in relationships, there is so much social stigma and prejudice against transgender individuals that lying is self-preservation. And it isn't as if most of us like or want this side of ourselves - we don't even accept it ourselves in many cases. How can we, when the whole world tells us we're wrong?
Oh, so the trans* person gets to do that? Because I never signed up for what I'm going through! Honey, nobody gets a guaranteed outcome in this life. Not you, not me, not anyone. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
To say that there are no winners here I think is not quite accurate. Leigh and her wife are both winners in my mind, as I see the preservation of their relationship as a win-win. Thats not to say that there were no cost to both sides. Comprmise means that neither side gets all that they want, but if they both get most of what the want, then its win-win.
And I think that that is what they got.
My 2 cents!
Hugs Bria
Leigh,
This very week, I find myself in a situation very similar to yours. I, too, have made the tough decision to value my marriage of more than 29 years and to quit dressing fully as Donna! My wife has been accepting about me discretely wearing bra and panties under my male clothes and that seemed to satisfy most of those feminine urges, so I have stored away all of the wigs, makeup, shoes and outer clothes at a remote location and now only do the underdressing thing as a kind of a compromise. I feel pretty certain that I can live with that and, if I ever start to think about dressing again, I'll pull out the close up photo of Donna as confirmation that I don't pass at all and she is just a fantasy anyway!
The reality of a happy marriage and family trumps this fantasy any day!
Good luck to you and your wife as you move forward.
Hi Leigh, You surely had to make a tough decision , I admire your choice and I sure hope that it works out for you.
Having my ears triple pierced is AWESOME, ~~......
I can explain it to you, But I can't comprehend it for you !
If at first you don't succeed, Then Skydiving isn't for you.
Be careful what you wish for, Once you ring a bell , you just can't Un-Ring it !! !!
I'm one of those people. I don't understand. There is no reason for someone to be "physically sick" over something like this if you ask me. It is not wrong according to the Bible, unless you are "dressing of the opposite gender for worship of a false idol," and that seems to be the number one argument. "It's wrong." Who says it is? The Bible says tattoos are wrong. Males with pierced ears. Homosexuality. I see that every time I turn around. It seems most who pass judgment unto others have other issues that are "wrong." We all do. If we were all perfect, we would never have to ask our supreme being...whoever or whatever you believe in...for help in life.
Being "twisted physically sick" over crossdressing seems like I can tell my wife to put her make up on, because without it, her appearance makes me physically sick. See? That's not right at all. It isn't even right to THINK that way if you ask me. If you love someone, you will do whatever to make it work. I could have left my wife when she went legally blind. I didn't. Looking at her with just one eye...was NEVER sickening for me. I love her, and it doesn't matter to me how she looks at ALL.
You should pick up a book on sexual fetishes at some time. People eat chalk, toilet paper, have sex with KNIVES/CUTTING, suffocation, brutality, and many other weird things. People still find happiness in relationships with THESE crazy ideas. I don't get how a behavior such as dressing causes divorce when there are so many other things people do that are true head scratchers...and much more disgusting...because it is their nature to be disgusting for a purpose.
My thoughts are women think of leaving men who crossdress because he has a "problem." So...you want to leave someone with a "problem" in search of someone who has no problems? Find someone who says they have no problems, and I will show you a liar.
Last edited by Jessica86; 06-26-2014 at 08:44 PM.
"If you think you can or can't, you're right" -Henry Ford
It is really not all that hard to understand the SO POV. Right or wrong, for better or worse, we live in a world that is constructed around a gender binary. It is what it is.
Little girls typically dream of marrying their Prince Charming when they grow up, not PRINCESS CHARMING.
We are good people. We may or may not have "issues". But how can you fault a single woman who marries while utterly in the dark about an important essence of their spouse?
Praise goes to the SO who finds it in herself to land on a spectrum between tolerate and accept. But at the same time, no scorn should be heaped onto the woman who just cannot get her head around this thing of ours when it wasn't presented prior to marriage.
Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)
Not only do we lie about CDing or being TS, but we lie about everything that is about our authentic self. We lie about our political beliefs, our religious beliefs, our activities we like, and even about our families or friends. We sacrifice things that give us pleasure or comfort, changing religions, sacrificing religion, or joining religion, to make someone else happy. Or hobbies we like, or sports, or the color of the clothes we wear. We lie and create false personas to make other people happy.
It isn't just restricted to spouses or S.O. We lie about all of the above things, including CDing or being TS, to everyone in our lives. Our families, work, friends, neighbors.
We lie and create false personas because we're afraid either of downright rejection, or that someone will try to fight us or pressure us into pleasing them. Even when an S.O. or family member doesn't reject us, they often fight us, pressure us, or play mind games on us, until we bend our will to please them.
We are told to accept our non CD/TS accepting S.O.s, friends, and family members as they are. We are told to accept S.O.s, friends, and family members who fight us, pressure us, or play mind games on us - we are told to accept them as they are. But how come we have to accept them as they are, but they can't accept us as they are? Why do I have to accept a person who is difficult, domineering, and pressures me to living in a geographic location that I don't want to, or fights me on who I can be friends with, or fights me on CDing, but they can't accept the fact that I live in California, or who I am friends with, or that I am a CD or a TS?
It seems that acceptance should be a two way street, but it isn't, especially when it comes to CDing or being TS. Even outside of CD/TS issues, acceptance often works only in one direction with one person getting what they want 90% of the time, and the other getting what I want only 10% of the time. When the more dominant partner, the one who gets what they want 90% of the time, doesn't get his/her way, he/she cries that the submissive partner (the one who gets their way only 10% of the time) is being unfair and controlling.
Really, Emi? It is selfish to be yourself? Since when? Ah, when people in this world say "just be yourself" they really mean "just be what society says you should be" or "just be what the script says you should be". These kind of problems with CDing occur because society says that anything that deviates outside the gender binary box is wrong, and because we are assigned family members that who have no control over, and it is assumed that all members of a family must be the same.
Why do you have to end your right to be you, but your wife doesn't have to end her right to be her? It's a double standard.
Amen to that. To the woman who wants to leave a CDing husband who doesn't drink or drinks moderately and is a responsible man who provides for the family and doesn't cause drama, would you rather have a non CDing husband who is a raging alcoholic who beats you every day and causes you to have the cops over your house, and fails to provide for you because he drinks away all his money, and for that matter can't keep a job because he drinks?
Edit: Lying catches up with you
We lie because we're afraid of what other people are going to think. They might reject us, yell at us, physically fight us, belittle us, laugh at us, guilt trip us, play passive aggressive mind games on us, cold shoulder us, talk us out of what we're doing, spread rumors about us, fire us. But in the end of the day, our lies always catch up with us. Guaranteed.
We live in a world where lying is a survival tool. But it is a short term gain survival tool. It gets you what you want, and sometimes what you need, for the short term. In the long run, lying always fails. When it comes to CDing, if you lie to your spouse, either you will be completely miserable not CDing at all, or you can CD in the closet and eventually she'll find out, or you'll be miserable worrying that she's going to find out. If you're a TS and need to transition, than not transitioning carries the same risk where the lie of pretending to be a man catches up with you.
This applies to everything we lie about in life. Lying might help us in the short term, but it is guaranteed to get catch up with you in the long term. Being honest might hurt you in the short term, but in the long term it is always better to be honest and tell the truth, including being honest with yourself.
Short term gain = long term suffering
Short term suffering = long term gain
Last edited by Michelle789; 06-27-2014 at 12:45 AM. Reason: Edit: Lying catches up with you
I've finally mastered the art of making salads. My favorite is a delicious Mediterranean salad.
That's what I thought, but it seems that to some there is no difference between a wife whose husband likes to crossdress in private occasionally and a wife whose husband is a woman in a man's body. The thread is about crossdressing, or more accurately, a man who crossdresses.
Jessica at the end of your first paragraph it should have ended with, " Let him without sin cast the first stone ", I don't usually make quotes but I agree with your reasoning !
Michelle I posted a thread about honesty in Loved Ones section, I still wish I could be totally honest, the feeling of guilt after so many years is tiring and unnecessary !
Do you think my experience crossdressing before I finally admitted to myself that I was transgender, and needed to transition, was substantively different than so many others here have experienced? Life in the closet - fear of discovery, the awful guilt, the self-loathing over a compulsion I could not shake?
Do you think the rejection from my wife, the revulsion she felt, was any different than so many here experience?
If you feel my experience is somehow invalid in this context, please elaborate. I'd love to hear why, pre-transition, I was any different than so many others here.
I notice that so many here are quick to martyr themselves - sacrificing their ability to express a part of themselves to assuage their spouse's discomfort. Ultimately, how fair is that? How easy is it to feel good about yourself when everyone in the world, including your beloved wife, tells you that you are a freak?
OK, you asked honest questions, and here are my honest answers:
1) You didn't become TS the day you admitted it to yourself. You may have thought you were a crossdresser (because you crossdressed) but your perspective was always that of a TS, you just didn't know it. The perspective of a crossdresser (you know, JUST a crossdresser) is different, but with some similarities. Some crossdressers experience fear of discovery (I did), guilt (a little), and self-loathing (no), but I never hated my maleness nor wanted to be a woman. So yes, I think a wife would be more freaked out by the discovery that her husband is a TS than if her husband was "just" a crossdresser. Somehow the thread topic got expanded from crossdressing to all flavors of transgenderism, and I was pointing that out, not minimizing the experiences of TS's.
2) A wife's revulsion may be different, or not depending on what she knows and any prejudices she may have. Some don't see any difference (nor want to).
Your experience is not invalid, just off topic in my opinion.
Since I'm not a member at the website, I can't comment but I really want to. So here's what I would say and I really hope you copy and paste it in the thread:
______________________________
Hi, I'm 'the wife' from the start of this chain. I've read all the responses up until this point and would like to put my perspective on this if y'all will allow me to do so.
First of all, thanks to my husband for being willing to post this since I'm not a member (just a lurker, LOL) and my apologies to him as this will not necessarily be 'pretty' but it will be honest. I've emailed this to him and asked him to copy and paste it in this thread.
Yes, we've been married for 32 years. Someone in this chain said "Leigh" is more committed to the marriage than "the wife" is, saying that I'd throw 32 years of marriage down the drain because of some clothes. I'm a little upset that my husband did not come to my defense at this statement but then it doesn't surprise me. No. I do not like the clothes. Yes. I want a man who is my husband. I do not want a 'wife' or a 'girl friend'. While I did indeed know that he occasionally did something with clothes before we got married, it was never explained that this was a lifestyle that he preferred. I was an innocent Christian girl when we got engaged and only saw this as an option for a 'cold shower' since we chose not to be sexually active. It took about 10 minutes of being married to find out that sexual intimacy was never going to be a priority for my husband. Unlike many women, I desired an active sex life with my husband...it didn't exist. I said my vows before God and hold my commitment to God first and to my husband second...so I stayed and worked hard to make a marriage between a man and a woman.
I know y'all say there's nothing in the Bible about this. What is in the Bible is that Wives are to honor and respect their husbands...Something very hard for a wife to do when the husband isn't happy unless presenting as a woman (or presenting in a secondary 'fetish' that, at least at this time, seems to be under control so not interfering with our relationship) and is selfish in every aspect of life not just in this one area of clothes. The Bible also says that Husbands are to LOVE their wives as Christ loved the Church and GAVE HIMSELF UP FOR HER! . I can not think of many things that my husband has 'given up' for me. And don't say that this recent 'purge' was him giving things up for me...clothes are already back in our home.
Throughout our 32 year marriage, I operated pretty much as a single Mom because I supported my husband pursuing the career he wanted and that meant he worked nights and weekends...which he loved because while he was home alone during the mornings while the child and I were at school and work, respectively, he was free to satisfy himself with the clothes and stuff and he never demonstrated a 'need' for me to be there for him in a relationship sense. Because his career was satisfying to him but not financially rewarding, I continually worked to improve my career status to allow us to live where he wanted to live (moving often with his job and leaving jobs I loved in the process) and to have the things he wanted to have and to travel the places he wanted to go. He is lucky because I am low maintenance and I don't have expensive make-up, expensive clothes, expensive purses, expensive jewelry, or expensive shoes. He has very rarely pursued me sexually even though I have strong needs and desire in that area...and yet, he is the only person I have ever had sex with. I remained in the marriage and remained faithful even though there was no intimacy due to, yes, his pure selfishness.
SO I'm pretty sure, even with this brief snapshot of our 32 year marriage, you can agree that I've been extremely committed to this marriage and I have done more that most other biological women would have done to keep the marriage together.
As for what our life was like over the last year, he made it very clear that the only way he would be happy was to be the 'woman' in my life...which as a biological woman, I'm not looking for. He had gone from annoyingly dressing now and then to, fully transforming and wanting to be that way 24/7 but knowing that in this 'relationship' he could not do that. My reputation is very important to me and we live in a very conservative area with family in the area. In spite of my pleading with him to 'respect' my wishes, and with the help of the 'encouragement' of the people on this site. he had started leaving the house in full drag from wig to dress shoes. Him not going out is very important to me and yet he did it more and more ... so please tell me, who is 'more committed' to this marriage?
He had asked me to look at it as a hobby over and over...again because that's what y'all taught him to say. And he repeatedly referred to those of you on this site that claim to have wives that let y'all have matching sleepwear with them. SO....I had started trying to do that, yeah because, how was it you said it?...Yeah, because I'm not 'committed' to the marriage. So before an out of town trip, I bought us matching sleepwear. It wasn't frilly. I couldn't go that far at the time. And during that trip, we shopped in the girls section, yep, just for him. We didn't buy me anything on that trip. Of course not! I really don't know how you get deeper and deeper into this. But I had found that no matter how much I accepted in the name of keeping the peace and, yep, showing my 'commitment' to this marriage, it just seemed that he went to another deeper level. Being that he already had a full wardrobe with every kind of make up. shoes, jewelry, wigs...it honestly scared me to think what he was going to do next.
And for clarification...the purge he did ... I did NOT ask him to do that. I had freed him to be whoever/whatever he wanted to be. But no...I did not and can not guarantee that I would be able to stay in a relationship where that's who he needed to be. Not just because of the clothes. It's the whole package...he constantly violated my trust...'us' was never a priority for him...I feel used as just a financial means..."MY" needs are never considered unless it's in a manipulative way to get to what he wants.
Oh, and we...talk...all....the...time...and...very...openl y!
If you have stuck with me through this long post, please let me leave you with this...If you have a wife who is still married to you and shows even a small hint of being willing to make the marriage work, take inventory of the entire relationship. Sure, she probably does hate that you CD. And you probably can't change that. But if she, like me, is ready to let you go to do and be who you think you must be, even if that means you'll no longer be married, the roots of the problem probably go much deeper than just a pair of underwear or ladies shorts. She has "done without' so much that she also "needs" for so long, consider "doing without" for a defined period of time and focusing all that emotion and energy on building something special with the bride you chose.
Hugs to you all!
"The Wife"
Without at all meaning to dismiss the concerns expressed in that post, in some relationships, the CD/TG/TS might have been the one who was putting a lot of effort into keeping the relationship together. (You can read my back postings if you want to see an example.)
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