There have been several threads about women who won't date CDers or TSes, or who leave the CDing or TS spouse behind. It seems that cis-gendered women generally don't want to date CDers and TSes, but cis-gendered men will at least date us for a one night stand.
Do you think the reason women don't like dating, being in a relationship with, or being married to a CDer, transwoman, or any other MTF gender variant, is caused by biological or social construct reasons? Or maybe a little bit of both?
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Hi Michelle . . . interesting question. In my own circumstances, my wife fully supports and has accepted Isha into our lives. I think that for some women it is a bridge too far and to be honest you cannot fault them any more than you can fault a man who finds out his wife is a FtM CDer or TS. Some will accept and embrace and others will move on. Is it biological or social? For those with SOs who are TG/CD I suspect more likely social as some may not be able to get past the fact that they have seen their husband in a dress and that goes against social norms. For TG/TS it is probably both . . . for a wife to accept a husband who is TS she is in effect agreeing to a same sex relationship and this my not jive with her biological imperative IMHO but I can't speak from a position of knowledge as I am TG/CD.
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Isha
Biological? Social? How about just PREFERENCE? Maybe a gal just doesn't want to. Period. We aren't entitled to be dated by anyone we want to date - she's gotta be into you.
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I'd think a combination of both.
Biological - most of the GG's in question are straight. An SO who appears as a woman can really throw them off because they are simply not attracted to women. Sure, a CD isn't a woman - but I think for some GG's, seeing their SO present as female is really a jarring experience, and one that trips up their own sexual orientation at times. For a TS - we are women, so it's no surprise straight girls aren't attracted to us.
Social - transphobia. No doubt some GG's are transphobic, just the same as some GM's.
Social - fear of stigma from others.
Social - discomfort at having to consider / alter their views of their sexual orientation, role in the relationship, etc. Heteronormative folks aren't usually well equipped to talk about these things.
Psychological - Many people, not just GG's, view themselves relative and in terms of their relationships with others. In a way, others define us. The discovery that a partner is TG changes that relationship, and for many, it changes their own self image a little. That's really hard for some people to deal with.
Last edited by PaulaQ; 06-29-2014 at 03:28 AM.
Do yourself a favour and don't YouTube "cross dresser"
Sure there not all bad, but the majority of them.there's a lot of bad apples give the average CD a bad rep.
Last edited by Candice Mae; 06-29-2014 at 03:53 AM.
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Michelle,
Most GGs look at the long term relationship as a dependable guy they can have kids with and he'll defend and support his family.
We all know a CDer is more than capable of that but it raises doubts in a GGs mind that because of his dressing she will lose that support.
I guess that fear might be slightly true when you read how supportive partners have to be when the CDing goes too far (Pink Fog )!!
The fear is that as a female she has normal relationship with a male but how far will he drift to be feminine ?
I Have experienced GGs that do date Cders as I had two GFs that were fine with it ! Maybe because I still showed enough of the guy you could still depend on !!
Hang on a minute...
Isn't this a leap of generalisation a bit too far...?
And isn't this wrongly mixing gender orientation with sexual orientation and attraction? While I don't believe there is a clear explanation for why so many apparently hetero males appear to be interested in us, I don't believe that means they're all up for a one-night stand with a CD...? (And it certainly doesn't mean that some of us would be interested in return!Originally Posted by Michelle789
Perhaps you didn't mean it quite like that...
Teresa's answer is a good example - people date folk they have something in common with... If you can find someone who is interested in our 'interests', that's the secret.... largely social... minimally biological...
The fact that so many CDers who have not revealed are able to lead comparatively, perfectly normal lives as husbands, fathers, partners... tells me this is more a social thing...
The situation may not be the same for those who are TS, but only because the tension in living a conflicted life is too much to bear...
Katey x
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Rinse and curl your hair - Loosen your hips, and get a dress to wear" Stefani Germanotta
Dating is very much different from having a relationship.
How many TG folk go out in their TG persona looking for a date? Someone out looking for a date, using personal ads or whatever means available do not get the full picture of their dates until the "relationship" has developed.
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I believe our brains are developed as we age just like our muscles. We are born with a brain that has certain attributes, and the experiences we have develop the brain throughout life. How much each has to do with the final person we become I don't know. A person who is born with a brain that is not very mentally flexible will be less likely to accept things outside the norm. Add to that most strait women are looking for a man, and their natural instincts are to seek out one with particular attributes that women do not have. I watched a good documentary on it once, these attributes that men seek in women, and women seek in men go back to the stone age. I don't blame women who aren''t attracted to a man with a feminine side, but I can really appreciate one who recognizes and appreciates a person with a wider range of themselves.
Last edited by Katey888; 06-29-2014 at 07:03 AM. Reason: Sorry - that content is prohibited on the site and has been removed
Maybe this question is really asking 2 questions, one about a significant other's acceptance of a crossdresser then another about would they find someone attractive regardless of what a partner looked like. Acceptance of a crossdresser might be more based on nurture than nature while the attraction might be based on their nature. Nothing is simple though and it probably a combination of factors that influence how a significant other feels about it.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding the question, but if not then in my experience the answer is "Enough to be noticeable".
On OKCupid, finding a CD or TG or TS who say so directly is "just something that happens", in the same way that finding a pro or semi-pro sports player is just something that happens. No shriek of discovery as if you had found a rare Pokemon, just "Oh, there's another one". The ones I picked out by sight nearly all mentioned their status somewhere in their profile (and I got reasonably good at picking them out by sight, even after FFS.)
I did encounter a couple of women of trans history who did not mention it in their profile, women who had transitioned a number of years before and whom had fully integrated as female, and who mentioned their history to me after we'd already had some discussion. I cannot say how many more were out there.
It is a fair question to ask about the fraction of CD and TG who joined as "male", visually presented as such, and do not mention their status, compare to the fraction for whom it was visible or made clear. I made no attempt to estimate or analyze proportions; but there are enough that it is not "needle in the haystack" effort.
I was told by one GF that she just didn't feel safe with me. That knowing what she did about me led her to feel I was no longer "Man Enough" for her. So perhaps that is a variable too. Perhaps some women might NEED the 100% Male Macho HeMan kinda guy?
Probably social to some extent, some may find it embarrassing or shameful if others find out about their SO. Mostly physical, 99.99% of women are just not wired to be attracted to "soft" men, it is biological programming that is deeply inbred and was necessary for survival at one time. Times and society may change, but at the end of the day the law of the jungle still applies, sadly for those of us who are "soft" men. Believe me, it is a harsh reality that really, really hurts, but at the same time it is a force of nature I can't change, no more than I can change the weather.
Actually, it's pretty simple. Straight women are sexually attracted to masculine males, and we, once 'en femme' even once, are no longer what they're attracted to, in fact, the reverse. We have become the opposite of what they want. It's not rocket science. In fact, I was surprised as anyone why I didn't think of it before, considering the incredible amount of psych material I had read over all those years. Just as men are 'hard wired' to find particular female physical characteristics and traits attractive, women are too, just different things. And I don't know of any way to change that, nor to figure out which women have had some type of experience that might have changed their inherent 'programming'.
Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.
Maybe a woman's choice to not date a CD/TS person is just their personal preference. Why must we blame society or other concept and just accept that some women simply don't like it? I don't prefer women with blonde hair, that doesn't mean society has conditioned me to dislike blondes, I just simply don't prefer blondes.
I agree it's probably both for most, and Paula's point about the psychology of it rings true, too. That aspect isn't often considered, imo.
I believe it is both social convention and biological. However being a biologist, I must expound upon the biological.
We have two basic instincts: Survival and Procreation. Therefore men will be attracted to as many young healthy attractive women as possible to ensure survival of their progeny. Women will be attracted to males who can best provide and protect the survival of their progeny. We are basically still a bunch of cavemen. Our genetic codes were constructed over many hundreds of thousands of years, mostly during times when survival of the fittest ruled. Males competed with one another for dominance and the alpha male took the most property, rewarded his loyal lieutenants, and earned respect by shear force. Polygamy was the standard of the day, and women were considered property. Women wanted to mate with the alpha male because that meant their children would be privileged and better cared. Wives of the alpha male had status.
Today, we still act like a bunch of cavemen, albeit monogamous ones. Women are still attracted to strong alpha males with status, believing this will provide a better life for them and their children. Women still need to feel secure, to feel status, to feel provided and to love a man they can respect and honor. It's still part of our instincts of survival and procreation.
So, if a cross-dresser was a rich, influential, respected, celebrity then I would venture to guess that girls would still flock to him. (Hey, I just described Steven Tyler.)
Last edited by Confucius; 07-01-2014 at 10:19 AM.
Confucious. This is true. Sadly, poor men, whether CD or not, are boxed out of the dating and marriage world, largely, in America, and other rich nations. Money makes almost anything a go.
Generalisations are always dangerous. And over-thinking a situation makes your head hurt (and usually makes the situation worse).
I agree with Daisy. Maybe it's just personal preference. Hell, for nearly 30 years I couldn't get a GG to look at me even though I was presenting as a "normal masculine man"! The girls that I knew just weren't into me.
Oh, And I don't prefer blondes either (except of the canine variety)!
Just a thought to add to the conversation... attraction, regardless of how we want to believe, even about ourselves, is often physical and based on appearance rather than personality. Be honest, how many of us have enjoyed an online conversation with someone unseen and developed a friendship thought to be strong only to finally see a picture and realize the "friend" is so unattractive physically to our own sensibilities that the new knowledge directly impacts (negatively) our feelings toward the person? I know, in a perfect world we would love the person still for who they are inside, but people are human. No one wants to be seen as or consider themself as shallow but...human is human, right?
Then put this in context of a gg suddenly seeing her "friend"/spouse/man in a female role.
Not an answer to the op, I know, just something to consider.
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The day that we discovered Tina, our knowledge of what "crossdressing" meant was just a tad north of zero. When we got home that night, I started looking around the web for information. If a women comes back from a first date with a guy who explains that he has a feminine self that he exhibits on occasion, and she goes to the web for more information, the chances of her being turned off in 5 minutes is incredibly great! Since there are a lot of guys out there who are not gender fluid, why would my imaginary woman bother working through all the issues? The answer is that she would have to like the heck out of the guy she is dating!
It's interesting that part of the discussion above has mentioned that once seen in our feminine selves, that our masculine selves are somehow diminished. I don't think that's genereally the case. For me, anyway, once I understood that I had a feminine self lurking around, I could more easily separate my gendered selves, and it made my male self "more male". Both of my gendered selves were diluted by the other, and once separate, they have been happy to just be themselves!
I think it takes an extraordinarily educated woman to understand the positive aspects of a male partner who really wants to learn what it's like to be a women in our world! It may very well be that in a few generations it will be easier, but right now the misinformation that available is a very large barrier to our easy acceptance as a partner.
I would say mostly social construct reasons.
Mind you some women are just overboard in acceptance.
I really don't know.
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Where a woman is at in her life will influence what she wants for her life. Someone wanting to marry and start a family will look at partners who best suit her needs and wants.
Also women must swim in a sea of male sexuality and usually a womans relationship to sex is very different than a mans relationship to sex.
Porn addiction is largely a male problem and far more sexual violence is perpetrated by men than women and it is hard to even think of a woman being sexually violent even though they can be.
Women understand at a visceral level the "creep factor" so are sensitive to what they possibly would describe as "sexual perversion"
Many women are simply "creeped out" by crossdressers and this is mainly instinctive and subconscious so if you ask them why they may not be able to explain the feeling.
Also a woman who is sexually attracted to masculine men and masculine energy will have her sexuality affected by feminine men the more they are removed from her ideal image of a masculine man.
Socially people are usually keenly aware of their place in the social hierarchy and they usually will protect this position. Some women will be very sensitive to how they are perceived by others for being in a relationship with a crossdresser or another woman.
I would suspect a large percentage of wives that accept crossdressing husbands do it on the condition that it is kept a secret from others.
Biology and sociology are intertwined and it is almost impossible to separate them as saying which decides what.
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I think there is a huge difference in dating a CD versus accepting a CD as a friend. I think more women will accept CDers or TSes as friends, but not want to date them. I think it's probably a bit of both when it comes to dating.
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You got it. I accepted my CD but initially I was disappointed. I was attracted to all his male attributes including his hairy chest. When I found out he was a CD he shaved it all off and I remember being terribly disappointed. I didn't fancy him dressed as a woman why would I, but I did fancy him as a man and because I loved him whatever mode he chose I accepted and supported him with it
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Last edited by Bev06 GG; 07-06-2014 at 03:03 PM. Reason: added text
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