Getting Clocked

[Michelle789]

I know, I know, yet another passing thread. This time I wanted to explore the area of getting clocked, and it's ramifications. This thread is open for all MTF CDs and TSes, as well as gender fluids or anyone else on the gender spectrum.

1. If you get clocked, will you definitely know you've been clocked? Does getting clocked always or usually result in an automatic "sir", or someone giggling, or making a "dude in a dress" comment, or at a funny feeling or a smile, but some definite indicator that you've been clocked, or does most cases of getting clocked go unnoticed? In other words, can you be clocked most of the time, but the person who clocked you doesn't say or do anything to you, and you receive no signal that you've just been clocked? In extreme cases, it can result in violence, but I suspect in most cases it won't result in violence - it's just that the violent cases can end your life.

2. Also, is it possible that someone can clock you, but still address you as ma'am? Or does a "ma'am" or "miss" addressing mean you passed in that situation?

3. What about if the S.A. or cashier gives you neither a sir nor a ma'am? Does this mean you've been clocked, and the S.A. is just being nice, or is receiving neither ma'am nor sir just typical behavior of S.A.'s and cashiers?

4. Why do you fear getting clocked? What are some of the ramifications of getting clocked?

For this thread, I am talking about specifically where you are in public places like stores or restaurants or the mall. I'm not concerned with passing at work or in a social situations among cis-gendered people.

[Emi_]

Oh dear, not again. i like how we want to define the exact parameters of passing as if there is a secret handshake we should all be learning. it's way more about subtleties and your own personality.

1. You won't always know when you've been clocked because you may not interact with everyone who clocks you. Some people will clock you and not care. Some people will just avoid you. Sometimes there is a definitive "sir" or "him," but even these can simply be harmless misunderstandings about how to deal with you and not necessarily a slap in the face. And then, there have been times when actual women are accidentally called "sir" because we're conditioned to answer "Yes, sir" or "No, sir." Sure it can go really bad, but most times it's just as if a purple alligator had walked in the room - it's weird and different and we notice it but it's not really enough to cause a riot over.

2. Of course, some people have actual manners. I always imagine that this is the case with me. I don't think I actually pass, but I'm doing my best and I figure that folks are just being nice to the cra1zy old guy in heels.

3. It could just mean the SA is rude. Not everything is about you.

4. I don't fear getting clocked. I have nothing to lose.

I live my life openly, I go everywhere I want to go. Do I always pass? Probably not. Do I manage to get through my day without any major injuries? Yeah. It's not as mysterious as everyone makes it.

[Desirae]

Since your post didn't specifically mention that only people who have been out in public should respond, I'll contribute my two cents to the discussion.

1) I think it certainly is possible to be clocked 100% of the time, but not know it, because none of the people who clocked you let on that they did, most likely because they just don't care or they are just too busy.

2) Of course someone could "know" that your are TG and still be respectful to you. They may be enlightened or educated enough to understand that you would prefer to be addressed as the gender you are emulating at the time.

3) That doesn't mean anything. When I'm shopping (male), I often don't get addressed specifically with a pronoun. I usually get a hi or hello or how are you doing. Sometimes. Sometimes I have to say something first.

4) I haven't been out in public, but the fear of ridicule and getting laughed at is a big one for me and that has kept me from doing so. I don't know of anyone who likes to be laughed at, even though many members here deal with it very well, at least according to their postings. Also, fear of violence is another one, even though I know it happens rarely. Not too mention running into someone I know.

[suchacutie]

We have the possibility of being known as a crossdresser regardless of which gender we are presenting. The last pair of heels I bought happened in male mode. As I stand at the checkout the SA (a guy) starts explaining just how I should take care of the suede...uh huh...how I should take care of them. He had no question about the fact they were for me. It wasn't a big deal for him.

The very first time I ever bought heels, the SA came up to me as I was trying on some 4.5 inch clogs (my wife had just ducked into the next aisle looking for shoes for herself, having just said that I should buy whatever I though looked good) and simply asked if they were for me. She also had no trouble with it, and was happy to tell me that the second pair was 50% off!

Having said that, I wonder if it is more likely for us to be treated less well en femme than en homme when others realize our gender situation. In male mode, I've never been hassled when someone discovers I'm buying women's clothes or shoes for me. Maybe the general view is that if we are en femme, that we are somehow in a weaker position. After all, if they know we are guys in a dress, don't they realize we are still guys and that maybe we might take offense?

Odd, huh?

[Jenniferathome]

Michelle, I think that 99.99999999999% of us will get clocked as soon as we are within human contact range. There are really only a few possibilities that the any counterpart can think: 1) This is a dude dressed as woman, 2) this WAS a dude and now is a woman who still looks like a dude.

2) is the BEST case scenario! So yes, I know I am being clocked. I think your attitude when interacting drives the kind of response you get. Not 100% of the time but most people will be relaxed and interact freely if you are also relaxed. If you re on edge, they will be more suspicious and act accordingly.

[Eryn]

1. If you get clocked, will you definitely know you've been clocked?

Of course not! Many people look at this 6'2" woman and probably suspect something, but politeness causes them to keep it to themselves. Let any among us who have never made a snide comment about a stranger's appearance cast the first stone!

2. Also, is it possible that someone can clock you, but still address you as ma'am? Or does a "ma'am" or "miss" addressing mean you passed in that situation?

If they are polite they will certainly address me as the gender I am presenting. I go to dinners with a CD group where the nature of the group is apparent and we are always addressed as "ladies!"

3. What about if the S.A. or cashier gives you neither a sir nor a ma'am? Does this mean you've been clocked, and the S.A. is just being nice, or is receiving neither ma'am nor sir just typical behavior of S.A.'s and cashiers?

I doesn't mean a thing. It's not healthy to read bad intent into everything a person does or does not do.

4. Why do you fear getting clocked? What are some of the ramifications of getting clocked?

In general, I don't fear it. I try to remain in places where people are civil and polite enough to allow me the benefit of the doubt. No biker bars or raves for this gal! In the rare occasion I feel I'm being observed a bit too closely I will move closer to the observers and, if they are female, give them a smile.[/QUOTE]

[PaulaQ]

Answers:
1. Nope. Some people will not react visibly, but they'll know. Many people, though, you'll see a startled reaction as they recognize you, or they'll do something negative that removes all doubt.
2. Yes, they can still address you as ma'am. I've walked into restaurants here in the 'hood with 5 days of beard growth before electrolysis, but otherwise presenting as female, and been "ma'amed". Getting ma'amed in a less accepting part of town is a better confirmation.
3. Doesn't mean anything - this situation provides no information. You'd have to look for facial clues or other reactions.
4. Aside from potential embarrassment (I'm well beyond that now), the main thing one should worry about would be aggression, at best verbal, at worst, physical.

[donnalee]

A small view from the other side of the counter:
I owned & ran a a small retail business for over 10 years. I learned very quickly that addressing customers as Sir or Ma'am was a loser's game. It is not that difficult to avoid either when speaking to a customer and in fact the address seems really to be a distancing tool to me. Otherwise, screwing it up is inevitable; despite your best intentions, you will wind up hurting someone unintentionally, you'll lose a customer and they will tell others.

[Marcelle]

Hi Michelle. To be honest I truly believe that unless you have been blessed genetically with female facial characteristics such as fine (read softer/less angled) features, smooth skin, minimal (little or none) beard development, limited to non-existent brow bossing, fuller cheek bones, visibly shorter distance between base of nose and top of lips . . . not even going to mention the Adam's Apple . . . I agree with Jennifer 99.9 percent of us are going to get read. Yes I understand that women's facial features can have male phenotype indicators but I am not talking "super model" women and even the manliest looking woman will have facial characteristics which pronounce her "woman" just as even some of the feminine looking men will have characteristics which declare him "man". Youth may play in some CDers favor but I am sorry, most will still get clocked/read/noticed on first contact.

I find the biggest "combat indicator" or any CDer regardless of how fine featured and girly they look is make-up. Most CDers have to cover some amount of beard (unless they have had laser/electro) and this requires an inordinate amount of coverage. I am getting laser done to reduce and it is probably 60 percent gone but I still required, beard cover, concealer and foundation which is very noticeable on close inspection. Look at most GGs and you will find that while some may wear foundation, it is lightly applied and while noticeable on inspection it is not to the level a CDer has. Even if there is no beard, we (CDers) tend to use a lot more make-up in an effort to disguise the maleness of our features (eye liner, mascara, eye shadow, blush, bronzer, lip stick, contouring make-up). Yes GGs will use make-up but during the day I find that most GGs downplay the make-up because to be honest they don't need a lot. I have met quite a few "pretty CDers" and yes when they first enter the room, they look pretty but even they have an inordinate amount of make-up with loudly proclaims them as CDer.

Looks are one thing and as you mentioned in your PM to me . . . mannerisms, behavior, walk and overall confidence are another part. Again, I have met some pretty CDers sitting quietly and think "Goodness someone won the genetic lottery" and then they get up still looking very femme and proceed to lumber across the room in a plodding very male fashion. Something as simple as how you fix your hair when it is in your face, manipulate a purse or bend down to pick something up can get you read just as quickly as looks.

A lot of people naturally assume they pass/blend well because they don't have any negative reactions. Now I am not saying this is the case but we don't see what happens after we have left a venue. A while back I ran a field study of sorts to examine this aspect and the results were . . . interesting. http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...periment/page2

So I don't believe we pass "at all" . . . we all have varying degrees of the ability to "blend" (if it looks like a girl, acts like a girl, talks like a girl . . . can't be a boy). How well you blend will determine if someone comes in for a closer inspection. So if you blend well, you may flitter through the Vanilla world and never so much as attract a glance (people see girl). However the minute even a "great blender" interacts I suspect they will not survive first contact . . . BOY! IMHO a lot of what we think of as passing is merely selective attention on the part of the people who see us in the wild and how the brain processes information http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...nd-CDing/page2

Sorry for the tangent but I thought I would take the opportunity to respond to your PM here as it seemed related. Now to your questions

1. If you get clocked, will you definitely know you've been clocked?

No, I don't believe you will always know. I have seen everything from "mouth open wide stares following my progression across a room" "finger pointing" and "subtle glances with a slight smile". However I am sure when walking in a crowded area I get clocked and will never know because I don't see these people. As well, some people will clock me and have the good graces to say or do nothing (the polite world).

2. Also, is it possible that someone can clock you, but still address you as ma'am? Or does a "ma'am" or "miss" addressing mean you passed in that situation?

Most definitely. An example of this is when I took my car in for servicing. While I can blend for quick non interactive encounters, I do not pass whatsoever. The guy at the counter knew I was a guy but he still addressed me as ma'am and told the technician that "Her car is out in the lot". That was either him being polite or following company policy. So while you may get a "ma'am" or a "miss" it does not necessarily equate to "passing" IMHO.

3. What about if the S.A. or cashier gives you neither a sir nor a ma'am? Does this mean you've been clocked, and the S.A. is just being nice, or is receiving neither ma'am nor sir just typical behavior of S.A.'s and cashiers?

Well, it is hard for me to respond as I always get clocked on contact. However I do know when I am "en boy" a lot of SAs do not use "pronouns" (sir, mister) and normally go with a friendly "hello".

4. Why do you fear getting clocked? What are some of the ramifications of getting clocked?

To be honest I don't fear it as I always get clocked on close examination and in some ways it is easier once it happens because it is done and I can just deal with it. What are the ramifications? Well it depends on the situation. Most times there is a hint of recognition (clocking) then the person carries on - nothing happens. However I have received the odd giggle, guffaw and rude comments from people.

Hugs

Isha

[BillieAnneJean]

You don't have to be perfectly passable to be OUT. if you look good enough to cause some doubt, or good enough to pass by while they still are considering, then most likely the observer's attention span is shorter than the interval. But you have to dress appropriately, conservatively. They will be back to their "smart" phone before you are out of hearing range. And just avoid the tween's favorite hangout - the mall, biker bars, sports bars, any place with a mechanical bull, any place that is all guys or less than 50% women

[kimdl93]

1. Normally, there are no ramifications. I've been out and about in broad daylight for a number of years now. There have been no adverse incidents - no one pointing and laughing, certainly no one ever making threatening or demeaning comments.

2. Sure its possible and probable to be clocked and addressed in the proper gender. That would simply be courteous behavior. Who cares - I don't need to know whether some stranger has clocked me or not.

3. Again, what an SA or clerk says won't mean anything to me. If I get "sir" - meh, it goes with the territory. I don't get overly elated by a courteous "ma'am" either.

4. NO, I assume that I will be read on close inspection. I also expect to be treated with courtesy and respect and that has been my experience.

[Amanda22]

My feelings are very much in line with Kim's. I had the OP's questions before I started going out in public and just after, but now that it's been a few years, I don't worry about it. It feels totally natural to be dressed in public, and I think my ease puts others at ease with it.

[CarleyK]

I was doing a good job one Saturday morning. I went to breakfast at a local restaurant. The waitress took my order. I don't remember the sequence, but I later asked her if she knew I was a guy. She was totally surprised. We talked about my makeup. Anyway, I was doing fine. No one seemed to notice. And then, I decided to stretch, stuck my arms out like a guy, not thinking, and I looked at the guy behind the cash register and knew I was had. I had to go pay my bill at the register but he was cool. So, I did good until then. I think I went shopping after that. I have not been out in a while but the last time I was out I was getting clocked left and right. A lot of it is your mannerisms. I guess I had bad mannerisms that day.

[Rogina B]

If you are good to them,then your celebrity status will carry you a good long way! Nothing bad comes from it!

[Alice Torn]

At the local small town cleaners, i have taken a few dresses in for alterations. I got some definite looks, as i was quite nervous. But, last week, i just went in and asked for my dress, and and i told the lady i put on a dress once in a while, and she laughed loud, but not mean. That took pressure off me, so i was clocked by what i was bringing in, and picking up, so let it be known i dress!

[Julie Gaum]

In my frequent recent outings I have found that I have been able to take refuge in that of an old lady. Age can have advantages. Examples: old ladies begin to look like old men, posture is bent so the "role" must be, thinks the onlooker, real (GG), makeup is often heavier as we hide the wrinkles and voice does change with the hormone changes, and gait could be either gender as long as you don't walk like an ape with sores. At any rate I usually feel confident and sort of pride that I blend in. At the worst, as Billie remarked: to pass enough to put doublts in the minds of the viewer. Well today I was a bit smug. First to drug store to get a few cosmetics -- young gal in that department spent five minutes helping and in retrospect I think my voice was getting deeper. Fine, but as soon as I headed for the cashier I heard her yell out the name of the guy at the register. He checked me out before asking her what she wanted. I waited at the door out of curiosity (only seconds went by) when she started to wave at him, saw me and stopped, I smiled and left. Largest drugstore chain in nation but obviously not trained. Next stop to liquor store to get rest of ingredients for a margarita ---
treated well and the results tonight were perfect. Lastly supermarket and not a glance. However when about to enter apartment complex a 30-year-old some 20 feet away returned my wave with a smile but then turned and looked again. I believe this second clock was though wearing pants and matching tank I may have been wearing more jewelry that the usual GG returning home. To me it's a game and I don't like a tie or lose.
Julie
Wearing wihte seems to blend better in dept stores than in home turf (new avatar)

[Tracy Hazel Lee]

I don't care if I'm clocked if :

1. They don't go out of their way to embarrass me,

OR

2. They don't get violent.

As long as all other possible outcomes don't include 1 or 2, I don't care if they read me.

[Sometimes Steffi]

1. No, not at all. Most people are too polite to say anything.

2. Yes. I've shopped at Dress Barn, and they know I'm a dude in a dress. But they treat me like any other woman. That's why they're a regular on my shopping circuit.

3. I would say it's normal behavior. I've been in various places in the south (US), and have been called "Honey" in 110% male mode. It's just ocal vernacular.

4. I'm only concerned if they're hitting on me pr planning to hit me

My first official time out was at the Maryland Renaissance Faire in 2007. There were thousands of people there. Most people didn't show any sign of clocking me. A good number of GGs did, and most of them thought it was pretty cool. A few guys clocked me also. One guy nearly twisted his head off when he finally clocked me, and he started talking aloud about me to his friends. I thought this guy was going to be trouble because he was really wasted. But he was with a group of mixed gender friends and they just pulled him away from me. Another guy that clocked me wanted to take my picture. At that time I was very camera shy because I was afraid of what would end up on the Internet. We played this little dance where I would walk away and he would catch up with me. He eventually gave up. His GF said to him that I probably didn't want my picture taken.

[Eryn]

Let me extend a bit on my philosophy:

In my travels I've seem people who could be CDers. Even with my awareness I never could be absolutely sure that they were TG. There was always a chance that the person was a GG who had lost some aspect of the genetic lottery.

Now, consider this from the position of an ordinary person who has no clue about the TG world. To them TG people all look like Eddy Izzard, Laverne Cox, and Flip Wilson's Geraldine. They aren't well equipped to identify mainstream CDers and most of the time we evade any notice. I'm just a Really Tall fiftysomething woman to them. Give them some time to talk to me and they might be suspicious as my voice isn't that good, but how does a 6'2" woman speak anyway?

So, let's assume that they have a suspicion. Imagine how embarrassing it would be to ask a GG if she was a man! As long as there is a doubt in the person's mind then politeness demands they treat me as I present. The only potential danger comes from people who aren't polite such as the young and the inebriated.

[Beverley Sims]

1. I think you would know, by others reactions.

2. Polite people will address you by the gender you are presenting.

3. A generic reply means little, SA's are usually polite. It is customer service training.

4. Only from an adverse point of view. I am not interested in confrontation.

[shawnsheila]

I seem to only get clocked by other women... maybe because men stare at my legs or butt or fake cleavage too much to look at my face. I have had 1 instance of some high school girls giggle at me (didn't really bother me) and a few adult females give me a double take / stare that could have been negative but they did not say anything (that didnt bother me either) and the other times have been positive i.e. compliments... Waitress, cashiers, and other ladies would mention that thy like they way i looked or liked my legs or liked my makeup (that did affect me )

[I Am Paula]

In my adult life I have been thru' three distinct phases of female presentation. Each was different as to being clocked.

In the eighties I was very flamboyant. A non-performing drag queen. In a platinum wig, and glitter eyeshadow, I could have worn a T-shirt with an arrow pointing down saying 'penis'. The point was to get clocked. Tourists would take pictures of me. I exclusively hung out in the gay village.

Married, and moved to the burbs, I moved away from the flamboyant, and started trying to blend into shopping mall femininity. I was only presenting female now and then, so still using wigs, and padding. I'm pretty sure I was clocked 100% of the time. IMO, even a very good wig is a wig. I don't know if it's Canadian politeness, or just acceptance of being different, I had only the rare negative comment. (two that I remember- one 'what a fag', and one misgendering). Ever. I did whatever I wanted, where I wanted, and SA's, policemen, gas station attendants etc. just dealt with me at face value. It's got boobs, it must be female...or not...who cares?

I moved to a small farming community, where pickup trucks, John Deere hats, and cowboy boots prevail, to begin transition. At first I used separate gas stations, banks etc. in boy or girl mode, to keep down confusion. There were a few places that saw me as both, but never commented, or complimented me on my female presentation. I began hormones, and went full time. Now- My beard is gone, my hair is where I want it, and I've grown real booblets (no more forms or padding...yea!) and I live my life authentically. I honestly have no idea what people think of me, or see. My belief is they see a trans woman, and leave it at that. My friends, support group, and my biggest fan, my sister, say that I pass. The other possibility is that people are so self absorbed that they notice one thing- my shoes, breasts, nails, and that is enough for them to make the call- female- and get back to their world. Whether they are being polite, confused, or fooled, I don't know.

Bottom line- I've never tried to fool myself, and I'm my own worst critic. I've always been treated as I want to be treated, and have never faced any real opposition. If they are snickering to themselves after I pass by, secretly jealous of my outfit, or their blood is boiling with hatred, I don't see it, and I don't care. I stop and chat with the farm boys leaning against their trucks, and am always bid a good day.

[Daisy41]

1. I'm honestly not sure if I've been clocked. The only time I absolute knew I was passing was when I was out in Halloween and I spoke in my male voice. I'd get shocked reactions and then I knew for sure. Otherwise I can't really tell if I'm being clocked. I actually avoid looking at other people most of the time so my focus isn't so much on trying to pass or not. I've never been sir'd so I honestly don't know. If someone did see me as a man or transgender person it wouldn't so much bother me since they would be right.

2.Yeah it's possible, but it doesn't mean anything to me.

3. I actually assume everyone knows and is just being nice to me.

4. My fear isn't getting clocked, it's having someone in public "have their say" regarding my 'life style choices". I want to avoid conflict and it seems it's pretty safe now.

In my experienced, I can't tell the difference between someone clocking me and someone giving me a look because I'm attractive. I've had women compliment me on my outfit after giving me several looks. I've seen guys eyes look at me, then down, then back up and just smile. What does it all me? I honestly have no clue and don't care.

[noeleena]

Hi,

So after talking to many people in a normal day say 20 most days and not having met them before what would being clocked mean to me total nothing , yet I dress differently seen by 100's every day ,

I interact with that many people every day so how am I perceived, look my at avatar and as iv said you judge, what you see, I don't hide my face and what you,d see is what every person will see .

Most of those people will not get to know who I am as im not here in Australia for more than 2 more weeks then I go back to NZ,

The bottom line is im a female with male facial features and who cares im well accepted by those I talk with, strangers or those in the street I smile to and most do to me, or even a hi. so no issues I can see,

...noeleena...

[Claire Cook]

I'll side with Isha, Erin and Julie on this. I'm probably "clocked" a lot of the time. And yet people accept, or at least tactfully put up with me. I would hope that they think "Well, if it is a "he", "he" seems very comfortable with "him/herself", is non-threatening, is a nice gentle person and blends in". And just maybe that will go a little bit toward tolerance, if not acceptance.