As a French-speaking person, it does not make sense to me either. We use the word the words feminine and masculine to describe a continuum. Femme is French for woman, and has little linguistic currency outside of the gender-gifted universe. I have never heard it uttered by heterosexual English-speaking friends in Canada, ever.
Of course these are stereotypes. The OP nailed the concern in saying that (in essence) not presenting a stereotypical female appearance will result in being read more. I.e., it undermines the experience of being witnessed, using your (excellent) term. That's not a deal killer, by any means - many here experience this more or less frequently and still manage to get on with life - but it's hardly optimal. Mind you, I'm not suggesting that this means supporting stereotypes is the only answer, but it's certainly one of the most obvious ones and helps many. I would say, from what I have read and seen, that the presentation concern for this purpose lessens over time as other compensations kick in.
Lea
It's a stereotype based on one's appearance, stereotypical things like wearing makeup, jewelry, heels, painted nails are considered stereotypically feminine.Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin
Butch was a poor word choice, "tomboy" is more correct.
I think this is getting way over analyzed though.
Over-analyzing is what Kathryn often brings to the table. It also has its merits.
Femme can also describe feminine gay men, butch could describe the hairiest bear with hair so dark not even light can escape it's surface, the possibilities are endless!
The points Kathryn raises are wonderful. If you read them as topics (as intended) rather than refutations, there is a lot to discuss.
Lea
The concept of masculine and feminine presentation has been around for a long time, that's more along the lines of what I meant.
I didn't mean whether or not an article of clothing is masculine or feminine, but the presentation you put forward.
I've seen some pretty manly looking guys rockin' skirts but because their overall presentation is masculine it doesn't matter if skirts are seen as traditionally feminine or made for women.
ARGH! NOW I'M OVER ANALYZING IT!
You girls are far too intellectual for me (but I still love you!) And I love skirts too, and bright red-orange colors. I love jewelry (the flashier the better) and I love make-up, only I wish I had more skill in applying it. And I love heels too, as long as I don't have to walk very far or stand very long in them. But this is just my personality. I don't doll up to impress or to "express my femininity" -- what ever that means. Dressing this way doesn't make me more or less a woman than someone with different tastes. But dressing this way does make me happy, and that's reason enough for me. (Did I tell you that I sometimes paint my nails in outrageous colors .. that make me happy too)
I am still in that stage where i am finding the real me. It is interesting as i spend a lot of time figuring how much of what i do is really me, and how much of what i do is just trying to fit a steriotype to gain social acceptance, how much of the real me am i really showing and how much am i still hiding. I hav always been facinated by makeup, and it will always be an interest of mine, but how much of my makeup is expression, and how much is expectation? I only own one skirt, and it hasn't gotten much use. I prefer pants, jeans and shorts, even for formal occasions. I love boots with heels but not regular heels. I like having long hair, but i work construction security and have had to butt heads with my boss about it a few times. We finally came to an agreement that it could cover my ears as long as i keep it short enough to stay off my collar. I don't own any jewlry or paint my nails yet. I like t-shirts and cute tops, love jackets and hats.Where does that put me? Am i femme, ot tomboy? I don't know, but i am done letting what other's stereotypical expectations control my life. I will keep trying new looks and what i like can stay, and what i don't can go to goodwill.
I've been trying to 'find myself' for years - if you see me, let me know!
I think I'm 'average'. What is 'average'? Midway between 'girly girl' and 'butch'? I can't go too far toward 'butch' because one of the last things mom did before she passed on was to pay for some implants - 'C' to 'E'. Kinda hard to be 'butch' when you're sticking out like that!
There's a spectrum of options that we all face every day, just like everyone else on the planet. I have to dress and act one way at work: skirted suit, blouse, heels, makeup, jewelry. On Friday casual, nice jeans, golf shirt, low heels or nice flats. Weekends, running around, doing chores, I feel I've got 'em, might as well flaunt 'em! I wear leotards, denim skirts or tight jeans and casual boots with a higher heel than normal. Why? I love the look! I admit, I love leotards!
Could I go 'butch'? Yeah, I could, in a way. Cut my hair, rougher clothing, that kind of thing. I could never go completely 'male', even though I've still got that wee little feller 'down there'. I've started on a one-way road, these many years ago (high school) and while there have been rough patches, you get through them. Did I wonder at times, 'What the hell am I doing?' Yes, we all have. Have I tossed my fem stuff in the dumpster? Yes, and then realized 'What am I going to wear tomorrow?' Have I contemplated suicide? Yes, got the scars on my wrist to prove it.
Rather disjointed reply to ... um, what was the question?
That's a bit different though, what I meant was your day-to-day appearance, the way you leave the house every day.
Interestingly enough and sort of related I probably get clocked as a gay male bottom o_O yet that's pretty far away from who and what I actually am.
I recommend reading the book Whipping Girl by Julia Serano, a transwoman herself, for a very thorough discussion of these issues. I can't possibly summarize it, but she is very much attuned to the separate concepts of feeling female, and being feminine, or not.
Michaella
I think I come across as a rather busty middle-aged (gack!) female. I know I could lose a few pounds around the middle, but so far Spanx is handling that problem!
I like heels and skirts, so I wear them when I can. I drive a Miata (classic chick car!) so I show off some leg when I pivot out of it.
I wear runners and take the bus/subway lol.
I think the only female cues I give off are the brightly coloured purse and my hair, oh and the boobs.
You are talking about my wife...
She is the tank top & shorts person, the 'pull my finger' parent. I'm the 'girly girl' with a beard.
I'm &$@% lucky to have her as my mate. She is who she is. I am who I am. We cross gender roles and don't give a damn. She is a girl with no fashion sense. I'm a dude who loves pretties. We have been partners for almost 30 years. I'm a *lucky* girl.
- MM
- Madame Moose - on my way to Anne
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"I yam what I yam and tha's all what I yam." -- Popeye the Sailor
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am 'I'? And if not now, when?" - Hillel the Elder
I want to do this with my wife. Then we must extend this role reversal into the bed room also.
Dear Tami M, I am similar to you. When I am dressed, I am a submissive female. I would be the passive / submissive / receptive female.
Last edited by Rianna Humble; 08-18-2014 at 12:42 AM. Reason: Multiposts will be merged or deleted. THIS time it was "merged"
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