Headline! Tranny Drives Bus Over Ex-Friend!

[LeaP]

TS responses only. I.e., if you are post-op, post-transition, on prescribed hormones, or in active transition (meaning in RLE/pre-op).

...What upsets me more is the way that some transpeople will trip over themselves to throw that person under the bus and play the distancing themselves card. ...

In the spirit of spinning threads from spun-off threads to avoid derailments (I just love the mixed transportation metaphors here), I thought I'd ask about the philosophy and utility of what is colloquially known as tossing people under the bus - in this case for detransitioning.

I have chosen my terms purposefully. Specifically, "philosophy" and not ethics or morality. While I have no particular problem with anyone keeping their own counsel on the latter (as long as they are civil about it), I believe there's a discussion to be had on why it might be useful (or not) for TS to distance themselves from detransitioners - and to discuss the rationale that drives the distancing.

No disagreement on the facts, please. I would like to stipulate that detransitioners actually do get thrown under the bus from time to time.

Without slicing and dicing the population too finely, I see three categories of detransitioners.

1) The mistaken detransitioner. These are those who, by their own admission, should never have transitioned and publicly disavow any connection to the trans world. Charles Kane would be an example in this category. They may have thought they were TS, though they may have come to this realization only after transition.

2) The TS detransitioner. Tried and failed. May or may not try again. Failed perhaps from lack of preparation or opposition. Perhaps for financial reasons. Perhaps to self-sacrifice for a SO. Perhaps out of religious conflicts. Perhaps because they like the excitement of it all. Perhaps whatever ...

3) The TG detransitioner. Tried and failed. Alternatively, tried and didn't like it. May still identify as a gender queer, TG, CD, etc.

I will cheerfully admit to throwing the first and last under the bus. I do so even though my basic philosophy tends to be libertarian. (I.e., in American terms, do whatever the hell you want to as long as it doesn't blow my life up.) Unfortunately, failures of both types inflame anti-TS sentiments in several quarters. These are as diverse as certain religious groups, political groups, feminists of various types, segments of the medical community, and others. The utility in condemning these detransitioners and creating distance is to distinguish between these people versus those who have real medical needs (i.e., TS), therefore protecting our access to transition. Some people are distinctly uncomfortable with condemning any sort of detransition. Frankly, I am discomfited more by those who improperly impute moral motivations to those such as me, when we actually are speaking to different points.

The condemnation is pretty obvious to most people when it comes to the first category. Even those pleading compassion the most tend to cheerfully toss the Charles Kanes of the world under the bus. But those in the third category? The conflict over what appears to be morals based condemnation is a little more complicated here. I actually may have some personal issues with some scenarios in this category. I have no problem distinguishing those from the utility argument, however, and have no problem publicly decrying the failed transition from a policy and effects standpoint, whatever I may or may not do in private from a personal standpoint.

But pity the poor TS detransitioner! Literally. Because not only have they f****d up, they still have a problem to deal with. Often the exact same problem – transition. I do not see the need to distance myself from these. But the utility arguments are still there for condemning the failure, though they run in other directions. Specifically, that they argue for better and more transition support! I have no problem condemning screw-ups as such. Poor planning – when it IS poor planning – should be condemned. Lack of preparation should be condemned. Lying your way through a system designed to protect you when those protections would have headed off your issues should be condemned. Etc.

Just my take on the world. What's yours?

[whowhatwhen]

In all fairness I meant in general not just in regards to de-transition, there was that case a while back about the transwoman allegedly standing to pee and many people here were misgendering her on purpose.

There is too many shades of gray here and gender identity is way too complex for people to say "told you so" after the fact.
What remains is that some may still be transgender but not to the degree requiring transition yet the community will push them away because it likes to pretend that mistakes aren't made.

IIRC Most transpeople do not regret transition and those that do mostly regret it only because of the loss they've suffered and the shit society heaps on them.
Human beings are way too complex and you can't put in any sort of system that will be 100% foolproof.

[LeaP]

What you may have meant with the non-transition items is off-topic.

Complexity isn't an excuse to avoid making judgments, it necessitates making proper judgments.

Your comment on mistakes and pretense is exactly the kind of moral attribution I was talking about.

I see TS gender identity as pretty straightforward. TG, not so much.

[whowhatwhen]

For someone who does detransition who are we to say that it wasn't the correct thing to do at the time?
They made a judgement that they thought was correct and in the end it turned out to be wrong, maybe I'm just and odd f***er but in the end all I want is for everyone to be happy.

If TS identity was that straightforward then you wouldn't have as many late transitioners, it takes just as much introspection to realize you're not TS.

Maybe it's just me then?
I think I have a much, much more liberal view of this whole thing than like 90% of people here.

[Michelle789]

Me personally
I am currently in RLE and am scheduled to see a doctor about hormones next Thursday. I feel 100% sure about being on the TG spectrum and 99% sure about being TS. I have never been a successful man like Charles Kane, and I am not late onset because I have had GD symptoms since childhood. I have considered the possibility of being a "failed man", but I feel like my CDing and female identity are too persistent and consistent to be a "failed man". This possibility went out the window two months ago.


I have considered the possibility that I might be a "failed crossdresser" - meaning at the least case I am still some kind of crossdresser or TG or other gender variant - meaning that the female identity is real but I somehow failed at the man part of being a crossdresser. But for a strong bottom who could never get aroused by women even when given the opportunity, and shows no desire to be a man even part time, I highly doubt it. That possibility has really gone out the window at least a month ago.

My bigger question right now is my sexual orientation - am I straight, lesbian, bisexual, asexual, or pansexual? This is the one real tossup in my life. Although I'm leaning more towards straight each day, with possibility of being a bottom in a lesbian relationship. I am definitely a bottom - I have no doubts about that. The possibility that I am not attracted to men is about to go out the window.

Successful men (e.g. Charles Kane)

I definitely see reasons to throw the Charles Kanes of the world under the bus. They had no gender identity conflict whatsoever, no traces of femininity, and no history of crossdressing. These are 100% men who during a midlife crisis thought that transition would solve their problems. They often sought no help from therapists, or lied to therapists and gatekeepers to get hormones and surgeries. Most TSes and other gender variants knew since childhood.

Sorry, I have no pity for these people.

Late onset GD (different from early onset GD, late transitioner)

I do pity the few TSes who actually do not see gender dysphoria show up until very late in life, and to have them lumped with the Charles Kanes is awful. I feel like people should take responsibility to figure out themselves.

My hats are off to anyone who figures out early enough in the transition process that transition is not for them.

I do have pity for the late onset TSes who detransition and are not able to accept themselves as being TS.

Failed men

I do pity these people, although they are rare. They are real people, my therapist has dealt with a few of them in her life. Unlike the Charles Kanes of this world, who are typically very manly men all their lives before they decide to mistakenly transition, these people formed weak, sporadic female identities as kids, and typically have sporadic crossdressing, and are typically not good at being men. This is usually caused by childhood trauma or misandry in our culture. From my therapist's experience most of them figure it out rather quickly before even going on hormones. Usually attending TG meetings and finding that they do not identify with other people anywhere on the TG spectrum. Like the successful man, they realize they fit no where on the TG spectrum. They realize they need to work on how to be men. In a way, it's a reverse transition - a transition into manhood for these people.

Other TG Spectrum

I hear this happening sometimes, and although some have to transition deep or completely and then detransition, many people in this category actually go on HRT and quickly realize that HRT and transition are not for them, but they are still somewhere on the TG spectrum. They still identify with lots of things other TG and CDers say, they're just not TS. Many will still be crossdressers, genderqueers, gender fluids, or other gender variants. I think throwing them under the bus is a HUGE mistake, because it can be tricky to decide where on the gender spectrum you actually are. Especially with pressure by the TG community to transition sometimes, they may feel that they need to go all the way and transition when in fact a dual life or occasional CDing is best for them. There may be even people who would benefit from living full time as a woman but without hormones.

TS Detransitioners

I definitely have pity for most of them. I agree that most TS detransitioners do so becuase of what they face in society being against them, as well as losing family, friends, jobs, and marriages. However, once you have come out and lost everything, there is no going back. Sadly, you are not going to gain any of what you lost back. Even if you decide to detransition and take back coming out as being TS, people will always view you as a TS once you come out. I feel like once you have come out, or let the cat out of the bag, as they say, there is no going back.

Poor Planning
Sometimes we can't plan for everything. Sometimes the GD is so strong that we cannot afford to live another day as a male, or at least we need to live nights and weekends as a female even if we can handle the workday as a male. However to get nights as a female requires you to live near your job, so you're not spending it in traffic. This is a real issue in L.A. and in most major cities and metropolitan areas, although I'd say it's a double whammy in L.A. since you can spend 1-2 hours each way in traffic easily just getting across the city itself. I'm not counting Riverside or OC, just L.A., L.B., S.M., and SFV.

Life doesn't always go according to plan. And finding a good, stable, LGBT friendly company often requires you to expand your geographic scope. If you're single than you can always just move when you get your job. But what about those who have family or S.O. ties - not everyone can afford to move. Some of us have to suck up spending our nights in traffic as a male. Some of us might be asked by an S.O. to present as male for certain occasions, especially to see in laws. Some of us might be asked to not go on HRT so we can maintain the male sex drive. I suppose that someone who lives full time as a woman but is not on hormones and actually needs hormones could still feel like crap because her body is getting the wrong hormones, and therefore she might feel a need to detransition when in reality she needed estrogen.

Some of us might detransition before coming out at work so that we can maintain our jobs.

All of this only delays the inevitable - transition.

Lying to get what you want

Given the gatekeeping nature of many therapists, I have heard of true TSes lying to get hormones and surgeries. This was especially true 20-30 years ago when you had to be Blanchard's "classical" TS - effeminate as a child, and solely attracted to men, and no autoeroticism - to be considered a TS. Many late transitoners (but early onset dysphoria) lied and pretended to be solely attracted to men and denied autoeroticism because back then being attracted to women and engaging in autoeroticism meant the gatekeepers would not believe you were TS, but rather a man with a fetish. Even today, people sometimes have to lie and say they know they're definitely TS even when there is still some doubt, just so they can get hormones quickly.

Keeping others happy
I believe the largest category of detransitioners are truly TS who decided to detransition to please others. To save a marriage, or re-establish family connections. Like I said earlier, there is no going back when you come out, so sadly if you come out as trans, and than say that you're not trans and detransition, I wish you good luck in getting back your lost family, friends, SO, or job.

Lack of self acceptance
It is very easy to say you will detransition because you're not TS - and it is easy to say you're not TS when you really are TS - because you are still fighting yourself. I believe most of the time if you are fighting yourself, you won't transition until you stop fighting yourself. But I suppose that some detransitioners are still fighting themselves and might transition years or decades later.

I cannot think of very many cases where I would not pity a detransitioner. Most of the time people detransition for lack of self-acceptance, society's pressure to be a man, trying to keep others happy, and not knowing themselves (e.g. failed man, CDer or somewhere else on TG spectrum but not TS). I really only have no pity for people like Charles Kane who were obviously never TS and lied to themselves and others because a their lives came apart during a midlife crisis and they thought that transition would solve their problems.

[LeaP]

Michele, I appreciate your effort at addressing the complexity here.

[Kathryn Martin]

1) The mistaken detransitioner. These are those who, by their own admission, should never have transitioned and publicly disavow any connection to the trans world. Charles Kane would be an example in this category. They may have thought they were TS, though they may have come to this realization only after transition.

2) The TS detransitioner. Tried and failed. May or may not try again. Failed perhaps from lack of preparation or opposition. Perhaps for financial reasons. Perhaps to self-sacrifice for a SO. Perhaps out of religious conflicts. Perhaps because they like the excitement of it all. Perhaps whatever ...

3) The TG detransitioner. Tried and failed. Alternatively, tried and didn't like it. May still identify as a gender queer, TG, CD, etc.

So here are my responses:

1. How can you think you are TS. Is that something outside of a medical condition which reveals itself through complete psycho-sexual inversion. Try to de-construct both the symptoms of being transsexed and the you pretty much realize that what you are talking about is men and women who have bodies that are disabled. If, and that is really the big IF your experience of self is that your body is disabled and not congruent with your self experience then the idea that one could think that one is TS to find out one is not is so totally bizarre it defies description. Those people need to have their heads examined. They live in a complete delusion. I have zero respect for these people, I think they do a lot of harm to transsexed people.

2. See above regarding the symptoms. Failure of transition in this instance is often instigated by external factors which means the agency of the person trying to transition is diminished, by medical conditions, lack of funds, family pressure or the like. When on another thread I spoke of certainty and absence of tentativeness it is the latter that befalls those that surrender their agency to such external pressures. In this context transitioning is ill conceived, because if you cannot marshall your own life and biography then external pressures are impactful. Badtranny always says that transition is not for the faint of heart, this is the reason why. The injury these people do themselves is extraordinary and they have my empathy, I would go, and have gone to the end for the world for them to encourage them to take agency of their lives and to prevail. Transitioning requires that you are aware of these external pressures and have taken steps to deal with them head on when they arrive. If you will not take your spouses, children and friends with you on your transition journey then you are a fool, and if they refuse to walk with you then understand that they make a choice that is not yours.

3. These are the ones that give it a whirl. They are delusional, crossdressers gone to seed. Yikes, no empathy whatsoever. Make your bed and sleep in it - with glee!

[whowhatwhen]

You do realize that there are more shades between CD and those who pursue transition right?
Chances are if their brain cannot run correctly on the new hormone they'll stop, done, system working as intended.

For those who go further and stop during RLE, then again, system working as intended.
Beyond that I have no idea because I don't presume to e-diagnose someone's motivation and mental state.

I'm willing to bet that the popular "solution" to the few who detransition is a hilarious number of gatekeepers who expect you to model June Cleaver.

[Michelle789]

Whowhatwhen has a valid point - most people who aren't TS stop before they realize they made a mistake. They stop HRT or RLE if either of them aren't working. Keep in mind that some of us, although rare, need HRT but not RLE, and others need RLE, but not HRT, although most true TSes need both HRT and RLE.

[LeaP]

1) it is bizarre, Kathryn. And it DOES harm transsexed people, which is my utilitarian argument. But you don't say how that happens. Care to take a crack at that?

2) Agreed on basic concepts, but the judgement need not be personal or harsh. We are all fools, at least at times.

3) Perhaps they are, but isn't the utilitarian argument the same as for #1?

[whowhatwhen]

Yeah, that one person who detransition completely invalidates all other successful cases, yep.
Gotta keep the rep up with the cis folk because sure as hell there are no delusional transitioned people either.

Let's try this, late transitioners can tell us why #1 doesn't apply to them.

[Michelle789]

#1 are completely delusional.

#2 face obstacles from the world, personal circumstances, and denial.

#3 fall somewhere on the TG spectrum but not necessarily TS, and they need to accept themselves where they are on the TG spectrum as much as a TS needs to accept where they are. A TS can think they are a CD or non TS TG, and a CD or non TS TG can think they are TS. Part of the questioning process is to figure out where we fall on the spectrum. No one is delusional for trying to understand themselves or figure themselves out. #3 definitely does not harm the trans community - we all need to figure out where on the spectrum we fall. Sorry, I cannot call #3 delusional, and realistically most non-TS TG or CDers will stop transition before there is actually a need to detransition.

More than detransitioners in any category, there are FAR more true TSes who don't transition, who need to transition, out of denial, lack of self acceptance, family, pleasing others, financial circumstances.

[LeaP]

Yeah, that one person who detransition completely invalidates all other successful cases, yep.
Gotta keep the rep up with the cis folk because sure as hell there are no delusional transitioned people either.

Let's try this, late transitioners can tell us why #1 doesn't apply to them.

Scorn doesn't become you.

The ask, though, is fair enough.

I didn't bypass the system, I submitted myself to it. Took some heat here for that, in fact. I haven't pursued transition, I've fought it. I didn't isolate myself from other TS, I've sought them for insight. I resolved co-morbid conditions - much of what passes for GD - BEFORE starting hormones. My identity is female, not male. It has never been male. I'm not looking at transition as a way to solve any problems but one, and I expect transition to result in yet more problems.

Could I be delusional? Sure! But the pattern doesn't fit the #1 types much, does it?

[KellyJameson]

Philosophically de-transitioners are both bad and good for transsexuals.

There should never be someone that de-transitions and the only reason it happens is someone who was not transsexual was allowed to transition, so it is a failure of checks and balances.

It is becoming increasingly easy to transition provided someone has the money to do so and even the money aspect is disappearing with socialized medicine and I can easily see many of the costs being picked up by health care in the not to distant future.

The transitioners age will also go down as it becomes accepted practice to block puberty. The suicide rate should also go down as transitioning becomes more acceptable, available and affordable.

I believe there will be an inverse relationship between transsexual suicides and de-transitioners, where the suicides go down and the de=transitioners will go up and for the same reason. Ease of transitioning.

There are many reasons to transition that have nothing to do with being a woman but simply wanting to be one without that "knowing" that transsexual woman "know" as being a woman.

It is paradoxical how hard transsexual woman fight for their identity when so many are willing to throw theirs away.

I think we value gender identity higher because we were prevented from knowing it as being able to live as we know ourselves to be right from the very beginning and so know the pain and costs of having lived this way, where those that have always known it seem not to value it because they have no sense of having lived without gender identity which is bascially living identityless which takes you into mental illness.

A de-transitioner creates through their transitioning the same suffering that the transsexual seeks to escape by transitioning so perversely they risk making themselves mentally ill.

For the transsexual, transitioning is experienced as a healing but for someone that is not they are actually making themselves sick on every level. No woman wants the experience of testosterone dominance because it is unnatural to experience it.

Personally I think the idiots get what they deserve and maybe there will be a lesson in there for humanity not to F... with gender unless you are actually trans, which leaves all sorts of wounds and scars across your life so it really is not that hard to diagnosis with a skilled gender therapist.

My concern is that de-transitioners become pawns used politically to make transitioning harder for the women that need it.

I follow a few de-transitioners on the internet and they are infected with blame for the system and there is some truth to this because if the checks and balances were there it would not have happened but those same checks and balances could cost a transsexual her life.

In the end transsexual women really never suffered from gender confusion but gender repression because the identity was always there from being born into it, where for whatever reason many seem to want to "play with gender"

A man filled with self loathing for being a man from all the hate he has absorbed could have his gender identity fractured and transitioning could offer the false promise of escape but self hate is not identity.

It reminds me of the prisoners dilemma.

[whowhatwhen]

Could I be delusional? Sure! But the pattern doesn't fit the #1 types much, does it?

That's part of it though, no one says "I'm delusional."
You followed the steps as intended, maybe they did as well, who knows?
In the end it all comes back to just how many more gatekeepers do you want to add?

I actually think it's kind of offensive the way that it's being put forward by people in this thread, mental health and gender identity issues are no joke and they chose them no less than we chose to be TS.
In fact I find it upsetting how so many here are finding it okay to toss them off as some kind of weirdo who was totally never one of us see I called it. Oh and that they deserve all the suffering they got too.

Besides, I think you're all forgetting that the biggest problem for the rights of transpeople is social conservatism and a lack of education.
But sure, let's just assume their life will forever remain in tatters never to be rebuilt.
Also not forgetting to tell them just what we think of them for daring to endanger our up till now superb rapport with the general public.

I've said some cold things in my life but damn you all have me beat here.

[Kimberly Kael]

I've said some cold things in my life but damn you all have me beat here.

Yup. Let's hear it for stepping on others who are down with only a vague theory that it might make our own lives easier.

The problem isn't that people who have detransitioned create social stigma against transsexuals. The problem is that transition is heavily stigmatized and always has been in our society, making life extraordinarily difficult for those who find themselves questioning their gender identity. If test driving a new identity wasn't hellishly complicated we'd all benefit.

[Badtranny]

I think Inna had it right some time ago when she posited that a certain amount of delusion is necessary for a successful transition. I would also submit that the same delusion would be necessary to do anything that requires stepping into the light from singing karaoke to auditioning for something. A measure of deluded self confidence is necessary for success in anything. Having said that, I have observed levels of delusion that were far beyond what would be necessary to do this thing we call transition.

I have pondered for quite some time why people seek to transition. My story is an old one, I didn't seek it, rather I was resigned to it. I think that could go for the majority of us, and even include those that decide against it in the end. In my business, I am never eager to promote those who clamor for the position because in my experience, the people who desperately want to be the boss, generally make very poor bosses. That is not always the case however and so it is with a transition-er, but I don't think there is any doubt that most of those who have blown into this forum over the years panting for their miraculous transition have faded away within a few months.

The internet has been a godsend to us, but it has also allowed an entire culture to grow around the idea of transition as an ideal. I think that people who live their lives online can very easily be swayed by the acceptance of a community such as this. The problem is a huge number of people on this forum have never done ANYTHING in public. How does someone who has never even cross dressed in daylight have any idea about a gender transition? They think they know so much because of the endless amount of information on the net, but most of what they know they've learned from other people who haven't done anything either.

Dudes think they must be chicks because they fantasize about other dudes or chicks with dicks. Those same dudes find community and camaraderie without all of the macho one up-manship and they are convinced they MUST be feminine. Well they may be, but they've never known a single gay man or another transsexual or even a very feminine man who is straight as an arrow and enjoys being a man very much thanks. Cross dressing is something you can do in secret but you cannot transition unless you get out and taste the experience. You don't put on a dress and become a woman, you put on the dress to show the world how you really feel about yourself, regardless of how they see you. This transition is an inside job. You have to feel it and then you have to accept it. Recently there is a danger of a lot of the inside work being done virtually instead of for real, and I see quite a bit of that here on this forum.

I predict a marked rise in de-transitions in the next couple of years due mainly to the influence of internet communities like this one. People don't realize that most of their new friends are not who they say they are and more insidiously, some people actually make decisions based on advice given by someone who has no idea what they're talking about. I've seen it happen here and nobody seems to care. This is not a safe place and you can't assume anything. Consider for example someone on the TS forum who contributes a lot, but has never met anyone else on this forum in real life. All of their pictures are solitary, and no other member has ever said they've met them.

All of this is of withering interest to me, but my point is this community can support somebody right into a de-transition because the poor person simply lacks any substantial Real Life Experience before they 'pull the pin'.

[mikiSJ]

I predict a marked rise in de-transitions in the next couple of years due mainly to the influence of internet communities like this one. People don't realize that most of their new friends are not who they say they are and more insidiously, some people actually make decisions based on advice given by someone who has no idea what they're talking about. I've seen it happen here and nobody seems to care. This is not a safe place and you can't assume anything. Consider for example someone on the TS forum who contributes a lot, but has never met anyone else on this forum in real life. All of their pictures are solitary, and no other member has ever said they've met them.

I don't really agree with the outcome Missy is predicting, but her setup is totally accurate. She has condensed the Allegory of the Cave into a brief paragraph succinctly describing the perfect knowledge some here espouse.

Aside from the fact that challenging anyone who 'de-transitions' (is that even a word?) is beyond your responsibility; what good does it do for our tiny obscure community to slice everything more finely that the last slice simply to prove the point that I am more me than you.

This whole discussion is ludicrous and does nothing to promote or ease the effort of those who are wandering the path to a new gender. And for those of you here who are totally happy with your confirmation - good for you. I suspect your number is not really all that large. If you ever have a twinge of doubt, isn't that the same, if only by degree, with those who you assign the label of 'de-transitioner'?

[Kathryn Martin]

Yeah, that one person who detransition completely invalidates all other successful cases, yep.
Gotta keep the rep up with the cis folk because sure as hell there are no delusional transitioned people either.

Let's try this, late transitioners can tell us why #1 doesn't apply to them.

The "mistaken de-transitioner" was the premise from which I said what I said. So from my perspective your response and question is non-sequitur. You are attempting to invalidate what I say by somehow suggesting that late transitioners are all mistaken. Explain!

Let me explain to you how those that de-transition hurt those that attempt transition and those that have fully transitioned. I have seen this operate and it's ugly.

Jack becomes Jackie and transitions. Jack then finds that the results of transition variously are too hard, not satisfactory, leave him lonely, destroy his family, make him destitute, leave him unattractive, were not what he expected etc. etc. Jack de-transitions and tells everyone that he made a mistake. Initially, Jack pronounces that living in a world in which we are not accepted for who we are it is impossible to flourish. He makes sure to shift his personal responsibility for his actions away from him by proclaiming that the world in which he lives is cruel and that he is the victim of that cruelty. He eventually comes to the conclusion if it walks like a man, talks like a man and looks like a man it must be a man. Sometimes Jack finds God and determines that His plan is the only only plan biologically speaking. In some cases he sets out on a crusade to ensure that his mistake must not be repeated by others and in some form of media or another pronounces his insights.

Now some time later Corinne or Kathryn come to the point where they must transition. They begin planning, they set some pieces in motion, they come out to their friends and family. Their friends and family are taken into confidence and are provided with information to assist them to process the emotional turmoil that comes with such a revelation. They go online, they come across the word "de-transition" and then they google it. They come across Jack"s pronouncements and they become unsure of Corinne or Kathryn's confidence in doing what they do. Because Corinne and Kathryn are really John and Arnold in their mind and emotions they feel compelled to warn Corinne and Kathryn. The pressure becomes relentless, they point out that Jack is to be respected and celebrated for his honesty with himself, that his insights are helpful in fact brilliant and that Corinne and Kathryn "don't have to do this to themselves". In the end they find that Corinne and Kathryn are delusional like Jack was, but he pulled himself up by his bootstraps but that Corinne and Kathryn cannot do so. They begin to turn away, feel the "tragedy of it all". Jack is their lifeline to not have to face the reality of Corinne and Kathryn.

What none of them ever consider is that Jack should not have done it in the first place because Jack just fancied prancing around in women's dresses.

One effing Jack!

[whowhatwhen]

The "mistaken de-transitioner" was the premise from which I said what I said. So from my perspective your response and question is non-sequitur. You are attempting to invalidate what I say by somehow suggesting that late transitioners are all mistaken. Explain!

Yeah, sorry about that.
In the morning that part I posted made no sense whatsoever.

The only thing I see about the rest is that who ever takes that guy seriously?
Not even crossdressers would listen to him let alone someone on the path to transition.

You can look at the sexchangeregret guy, sure he talks at all those NOM conferences but his personal efficacy is less than plastic wrap around an ogre's wang.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Unless you are a mind reader, its impossible to tell what motivates a person to transition or consider transition.

Transition is highly stigmatized. We are basically dehumanized and/or sexualized by a large part of the population.

But its not some crazy theory that detransitioners hurt transitioners
...simply consider the extreme.... if no one ever ever detransitioned, and everyone said it improved their lives, then it would be impossible to argue against it...

but that's not the case...

we can never really know the inside of a persons head or the details of their lives, and so we are left with imperfect and overly broad categories or labels that are modestly helpful to at least describe some stereotypical things that happen..

also we are just a message board...does anyone know (outside of this board) people that were cd's gone wild?? I don't. How many cd's have a couple hundred grand and like pain and suffering for their femme time??

Also, if I can't throw a fool that rushed in under the bus, what should I do??? stay silent??

how can I use the experience of people like sexchangeregretguy or Charles Kane as a positive for transitioning transsexuals? how is his journey helpful to those of us that were desperate to transition against all odds?? how does sexchangeregret or a Charles kane video which is easily found help a person trying to explain to her mom or boss that what they are doing is necessary???

how can I explain that HE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME while not throwing him under the bus...

what can I possibly do for that person after the fact?? His very existence puts my identity in doubt to others...that's the hard truth.
How can me "supporting" him in the court of public opinion help him and others?

doesn't every transsexual say don't transition unless you have to?? literally.... wtf more do you want us to do??

there are poor souls in this world...they are everywhere... they always were and always will... should I worry about every one of them?? if one of them shares a problem with meshould I embrace their struggle as my own??
How do I explain to somebody that many of these people don't even share the same problem as me!!! they just idolized my problem and glommed onto to deal with their very different issues...

gosh it would be nice to just vote for world peace and happiness but seriously tell me what I should say to someone about a detransition that is not going to make their eyes glaze over or make me look like an idiot.

[Michelle.M]

I don’t throw anyone under the bus for detransitioning, changing their mind, taking a detour, taking a break or whatever. Gender is a lot more fluid than most people want to admit, and gender expression is part of that. Do what you want, be who you are, and let’s all get on with our lives.

That said, I have a serious problem with anyone who changes their game plan, i.e. the “regretters”, those who change lanes or go back to their old lives and then decide they need to vilify the trans community just so they can feel better about their own mistake. To them I say “Man up, son! Own your own problems and stay away from us!”

People like Walt Heyer (and his handler, Family Research Council) get no slack from me. I’ll throw them under the bus and then climb aboard and put it in gear myself! But for the rank and file detransitioners I’m just glad that they’re taking an active role in their own lives and making changes as they see fit. No criticism from me.

I think Inna had it right some time ago when she posited that a certain amount of delusion is necessary for a successful transition. I would also submit that the same delusion would be necessary to do anything that requires stepping into the light from singing karaoke to auditioning for something. A measure of deluded self confidence is necessary for success in anything.

That’s a very keen observation. I was listening to a radio program the other day about business startups. The report stated that the statistics show that the vast majority of business startups fail, yet people try anyway. They do so because there is at least a chance of success (and none at all if you don’t try). The report went on to say that an entrepreneur must believe, in spite of the facts, that success is possible. There must be a heathy dose of fantasy to achieve a successful outcome. There’s only a problem when the dream and the reality are out of proportion.

Aside from those practical issues that others have identified in this thread, I think that’s the main cause of detransition and regret.

[LeaP]

Yup. Let's hear it for stepping on others who are down with only a vague theory that it might make our own lives easier.

Over-broad. There are some examples of condemnation based on personal feelings, but also thoughtful contributions on the real impact that detransitions have. I said it in the OP and will say it again - I don't like the attribution of motives in these discussions. My goal is to get a constructive conversation on the real-world effects of detransitions, for good or bad - not to advance ideas out of motives for things like personal benefit.

...
You followed the steps as intended, maybe they did as well, who knows?
In the end it all comes back to just how many more gatekeepers do you want to add?

I actually think it's kind of offensive the way that it's being put forward by people in this thread, mental health and gender identity issues are no joke and they chose them no less than we chose to be TS.
In fact I find it upsetting how so many here are finding it okay to toss them off as some kind of weirdo who was totally never one of us see I called it. Oh and that they deserve all the suffering they got too.

...
I've said some cold things in my life but damn you all have me beat here.

In many cases in my first category, the detransitioners themselves said they bypassed the system. The posts right here in cd.com concerning bypassing assessment and advocating a do-what-you-will informed consent model for everything from hormones to surgery are legion.

Your gatekeepers question goes to one possible solution. This thread, however, is focused on articulating the problem. Moreover, the comment is a strawman - the reference is to older gatekeeping protocols and, by appealing by inference to their known deficiencies, suggests no solution is possible. This after rejecting (and to support rejecting) the thread's premise! Turning comments on standards into suggestions of gatekeeping that no-one has made ... Nice (rhetorical) try! FWIW, I don't necessarily see gatekeeping as the solution.

Re: coldness - See my response above on attribution of motive (including intent.) There is a huge difference between condemning the person and condemning an act. The first speaks to general principles, the second to personal judgements, something I tried to distinguish in the OP. I've tried to keep the discussion in the principles arena as it applies to public effect and policy. It can feel cold, even when people manage to keep their personal feelings in check, in large part because such discussions require examples. There are endless analogies with other issues where the same dynamic plays out.

... what good does it do for our tiny obscure community to slice everything more finely that the last slice simply to prove the point that I am more me than you.

This whole discussion is ludicrous and does nothing to promote or ease the effort of those who are wandering the path to a new gender. ... If you ever have a twinge of doubt, isn't that the same, if only by degree, with those who you assign the label of 'de-transitioner'?

The ONLY people that can speak with authority on many aspects of transsexuality are transsexuals.

Nothing in this is about who is a true transsexual - NOTHING. I went out of my way to keep my categories, at least, to the self-identified. You are taking the condemnation of failure reasons into condemnation of the individual and, by that, into a further-removed implication of elitism. I acknowledged that in certain cases I might indeed be doing that (making moral judgments, that is, not being elitist), based on my own moral views, but mentioned it to warn off the temptation. Again, I know this is hard to do! Some of the responses are more personal than topical - no matter what the specific view, frankly.

IF an individual is thoughtful, they will take a caution (say about transition planning) seriously. If some of the generalized advice they read doesn't apply to their situation, it's on them to figure that out. Having done that, if they hear a discussion about failure to plan disasters and take that personally when it doesn't even apply, well ... I don't know what to say.

Doctors are held to care standards. They can vary from them with justification. When they do so and things go well, or even if they don't but the deviation was justifiable, no issue. When they screw up, they are justly condemned, at times literally (imprisoned.)

Yeah, sorry about that.
In the morning that part I posted made no sense whatsoever.

The only thing I see about the rest is that who ever takes that guy seriously?

All it takes is the right person in the right position to do major damage. Paul McHugh's has been reverberating for decades, from initiating the cascade of gender clinic shutdowns in the 70s and 80s, to the Catholic Church's stance on transgender medicine, to his influence in government, to the present ... see his Wall Street Journal article this June, for example. Another is Ray Blanchard.

[whowhatwhen]

What?
Where are the threads suggesting people go DIY and bypass the system?

The only place I see it mentioned is in other places and even then the person going that route doesn't have access to the proper care.

Just like the mythical "you go grrrrl" posts people keep complaining about, they don't exist.
Reading other's experiences is important and imo the most valuable part of a place like this, but I don't remember reading anyone advocating transition.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

This whole discussion is ludicrous and does nothing to promote or ease the effort of those who are wandering the path to a new gender. And for those of you here who are totally happy with your confirmation - good for you. I suspect your number is not really all that large. If you ever have a twinge of doubt, isn't that the same, if only by degree, with those who you assign the label of 'de-transitioner'?

nice try...
No its not the same, even by many degrees...

We are talking about actions, responsibility and consequences and you are talking about trannier than thou malarkey..... its interesting because you do the very thing you accuse others of...do you even see it?? what gives you the ability to read into the motives of people that express frustration over how people detransition and especially how that impacts us in the cisgender community .. where do you come off telling me that if I have a problem it's because I am trying to prove some made up point..
how the heck would you know?

as far as your whole "good for you there aren't that many of you anyway" comment i'd say you huwt my wittle feewlings but that wouldn't be true.