Headline! Tranny Drives Bus Over Ex-Friend!

[Kathryn Martin]

As for earning your trust....why should you trust me? I could be anybody making up stories and experiences at will. why would you choose to believe anything I have to say when it is more than obvious that nobody here likes or believes anything I have to say.

I am alternately thinking "not so fast" and "funny that". Sometimes things that are being said are inherently trustworthy, at least to those who have been there done that.

I am not sure that self victimization isn't a political stance rather than reality, even though most don't seem to need a lot of convincing that they have fallen victim to the big bad world. As Lea says worth a whole separate discussion.

[LeaP]

Actually, Sal, what I said is that most people self-declare. One of the reasons I chose to focus on detransition in this thread was that there tends to be a lot of clarity on who is who and why and how things came down. Prior to transition? Not always so clear.

I am not one of those who said that I did not trust you (or your motives). But for the record, I don't. I don't like, dislike, believe, or disbelieve anything you have said. You haven't said anything of substance yet. Do you seriously think making vague statements such as you have about Lynn Conway's site are substantive? Does someone really have to go back and deconstruct your incredible posting history stretching back through time? I mean, are you up to a hundred words yet? Participate. Don't participate. I don't care. But please don't continue to sidetrack and derail the substance of the conversation.

I don't want to assume anything about you "for the sake of discussion." You can either be upfront about who you are and what your status is or not. Truth will out eventually. Offering such a response, however, is part of the syndrome that is leading to suspicion about your motives. Before you ask, yes – it does matter. To be completely candid, I don't give a rats ass about your opinion if you are not actually transsexual, my experience being that non-transsexuals have absolutely no credibility on many TS topics, including this one.

If you think there is over-rationalization, groupthink, victimization, etc. going on in the context of this thread topic, please feel free to point it out. You haven't done so yet. Your message? What message?

[SassySal]

"Wow, if I had to live in that head I would slap the bitch and tell her to shut up."

Actually, what you said was..."None of these are TS transition regretters".

Sure sounds like a judgment to me.

While I am aware of Michael/Christine Penner/Daniels there is really not much information that would address his return to the byline Mike Penner in October of 2008. There is one quote from him though that I find interesting and may very well have summarized his initial decision to transition: "I just have to find out about this. I don't want to die without knowing — without knowing if this is really me."

If you take him at his word then it is sad that he transitioned in the first place. It is even more sad that he de-transitioned in October 2008. It is unquestionably tragic that he killed himself in 2009 because he was unable to live with his actions and how the views of others impacted him.

Most importantly in the context of this conversation however is the fact that he did not attack those that are transsexual or gender variant. And he had in all this tragedy agency of his life.

I agree with your first two points. No sure about the third, "Most importantly in the context of this conversation however is the fact that he did not attack those that are transsexual or gender variant."

I thought this thread was about the TG "community" throwing those like Penner/Daniels under the bus.

I am not one of those who said that I did not trust you (or your motives). But for the record, I don't. I don't like, dislike, believe, or disbelieve anything you have said.

Like I said....no point in posting my bona fides. No one seems willing to accept them.

[LeaP]

Whatever, Sal.

[Kimberly Kael]

Kimberly my point has always been that those things should be thought about and assessed BEFORE you transition.

Of course they should. I'd be among the first to advocate a thoughtful, realistic approach to transition. That's still a far cry from the actual experience, and I doubt there's a single transitioner on this earth who didn't find a few surprises along the way – no matter how exhaustive their preparation. Then there are those whose dysphoria has been severe enough long enough that they aren't capable of being rational about transition. Does that mean they shouldn't have the option? Or that they can't second-guess their decision should things get really tough?

I'm particularly entertained by your assertion that we should be able to assess pre-transition whether our careers will be sustainable. Based on what? People who aren't making major life changes have a hard enough time with that question. I suspect I have one of the most rock-solid careers of anyone here, and I went into my transition prepared for the possibility that I'd never have a job again. Not everyone has that luxury.

It's easy to criticize others for failing to live up to your personal standards. That's why a sizable part of the world's population looks down on all of us. The least we can do is not do the same to members of our own extended community.

[Starling]

...It upsets me when someone uses the meme of "preferred role". It sounds like a serious lack of gravity and responsibility. I have never had a preferred role - I was a girl and then a woman. There is no chimera of gender which is just another lie in your biographical pocketbook. Gender never reflects the nature of the human being but simply monkeys around with cultural constructs that have no inherent value other than to diminish...

I chose the phrase to introduce a bit of variety, without realizing it would be assigned such critical importance. You were a girl and then a woman, Kathryn, but chances are you played a boy and a man as best you could, until you could no longer sustain it. You're obviously an extremely organized person with a strong will; and I don't doubt you dotted every "i" and crossed every "t" leading up to your transition and beyond.

More on topic, here is a link to the most complete account I've found of Mike Penner's transition to Christine Daniels, and the tragic conclusion. I think it's very much worth reading, especially considering it was written for a general readership.

http://www.laweekly.com/2010-08-19/n...wFullText=true

Lallie

[Aprilrain]

...no point in posting my bona fides. No one seems willing to accept them.

This is a BS statement, how are we supposed to accept them if you don't post them?? The truth is, in all likelihood you don't have any to post!

We've had more than a few fakes around here over the years, one of whom I chatted with on a regular basis for over two years before discovering "her" deception.

Sal, none of us know why you are here, what's your angle? You don't seem to share anything about yourself. You see we all know each other around here. Most of us have met at least one other person from the forum in person so have built a web of people we know are who they say they are. Transition is not something you can theorize about you must live it to know it. That's why we don't put up with any BS. It's just not helpful. So far you haven't shared anything we didn't already know about. Why don't you let us know who YOU are?

[Kathryn Martin]

I'm particularly entertained by your assertion that we should be able to assess pre-transition whether our careers will be sustainable. Based on what? People who aren't making major life changes have a hard enough time with that question. I suspect I have one of the most rock-solid careers of anyone here, and I went into my transition prepared for the possibility that I'd never have a job again. Not everyone has that luxury.

It's easy to criticize others for failing to live up to your personal standards. That's why a sizable part of the world's population looks down on all of us. The least we can do is not do the same to members of our own extended community.

Kimberly,

I take it you are still working in your rock solid career. Instead of getting a chuckle out of my assertions about assessing pre-transition whether our careers are sustainable through transition you might ask yourself why your career is rock solid. As a lawyer I am self employed and if no one walks through my door to seek my service I don't eat.

How long are you going to believe the myth that a sizable portion of the world population looks down on you? Do our careers really just depend on the intransigence of human reaction to our transition. Or do you actually play a part in your own life. Does the fact that you have a rock solid career have something to do with you, or is it just a gift from your employer? The people who walk through my door come because of who I am as a human being and as a professional in my field. The more you worry about others reaction or downward glance on you the less focus you expend of being the best you can both as a human being and as a professional.

I think that your view that we should not be critical of each other is just a lot of Kumbaya. When a sister takes the time and energy to give a critical and frank assessment of me then quite frankly I am grateful. The value of such an assessment by someone who actually truly understands cannot even be measured. I was fortunate enough to have such sisters. Their views as painful as they were at times took me forward.

[SassySal]

This is a BS statement, how are we supposed to accept them if you don't post them?? The truth is, in all likelihood you don't have any to post!

Transition is not something you can theorize about you must live it to know it. That's why we don't put up with any BS. It's just not helpful. So far you haven't shared anything we didn't already know about. Why don't you let us know who YOU are?

I have already stated on more than one occasion that I underwent SRS many years ago and that I did not suffer all of the many ills or confusion/angst, etc. that seem to be the topic of many of the posts on this forum. What else would you like to know?

As for "helpful tips", I am not sure that I can offer any to those of you which already seem to have all the answers despite going on and on about how difficult things are or have been for you, or that only you can know "what is right for you".

Sounds like a Catch 22 to me.

[becky77]

Gonna quote myself here lol.

I don't know how much I trust these therapists, I believe it's too easy to tell them what they want to hear. Yes, I totally agree that someone who bends the system can't be defended, but what of those that truly think that is their path and the therapist doesn't find the real underlying problem? I'm sure it happens and those people will detransition and it will be awful hard on them.

I was speaking to a fulltime TS person the other day, that has been through our system here in England and she said two things that raised alarm bells in me.

First, she wasn't allowed Hormones until she had completed RLE. (first time I have heard this, I found it hard to believe but she was adamant)
Personally I think that borders on negligense! Is it possible that with the help of hormones someone could control their GD enough not to transition?
Also what of someone that takes the hormones and it's all wrong for them.
If so making that person transition and out themselves first before they get the medication could be life threatening.
Again I state a possible de-transition waiting to happen, no wonder so many self med. Fortunately it has worked out well for her.

Secondly, she told me something I have now heard from three seperate people that have been 'through the system', when you go to see the gender therapist (and I believe it's a particular chap in question) wear a dress, he won't take you serious in jeans!!
Serioulsy is that what defines a woman, wearing a dress.

Until we have expert gender therapists, preferably ones that have experienced it themselves, de-transition is still possible and probable.

[SassySal]

I will say this...some transsexuals regret their "decision"
...

Perhaps you may be right that "some transsexuals regret". I would argue that your qualifying your assertion by using the term "some", makes it essentially a useless assertion. Also, I have no idea how you define 'transsexual'.

It is like asserting that "some" days are cloudy. It essentially says nothing. On the other hand when LeaP asserts that "most" regretters tend to be non-TS, then there is something that can be examined. In fact, this is something that I would probably agree with although I would have to add the caveat that I would need some further clarification of the terms "transition" and "non-TS".

[arbon]

I have already stated on more than one occasion that I underwent SRS many years ago and that I did not suffer all of the many ills or confusion/angst, etc. that seem to be the topic of many of the posts on this forum. What else would you like to know?
.

you have once, in this thread, as far as I know. Did you indicated that in other posts? I did not see where else you said that.

You have also indicated in your past posts that you were not transsexual.

So maybe you could give a straight answer? Which is it?

[SassySal]

Gonna quote myself here lol.
Until we have expert gender therapists, preferably ones that have experienced it themselves, de-transition is still possible and probable.

Boy! Do I agree with this, although again...what do you mean by "transition"?

[Kimberly Kael]

I take it you are still working in your rock solid career.

I am, but to pretend that there would be any guarantees it would work out this way would be foolish. No amount of self-awareness or research could promise a particular outcome. I'm extremely good at what I do, but two aspects were entirely unclear to me. One is that I was well known as a public speaker and I think it's legitimate to wonder how many companies are ready to have a transgender public representative? The other is that I have a good intuitive sense for our market, but that requires an employer to trust my judgement. I had to realistically assume that my transition would raise doubts for some if not many.

On that latter front I had a pleasant surprise when a coworker was asking my advice on a career move he was contemplating. This was about three months after my transition when I was still feeling pretty vulnerable, and I asked why he was seeking my advice in particular. His response? "You're one of the sanest people I know." I'm glad at least some people still see me that way, but I can cite examples to the contrary as well.

How long are you going to believe the myth that a sizable portion of the world population looks down on you?

As long as I keep seeing public rants that get plenty of support, hearing unapologetic slurs from people who should know better, and watching people vote against my basic human rights. If my father ever deigned to speak to me again that might be a step in the right direction, too.

Do our careers really just depend on the intransigence of human reaction to our transition. Or do you actually play a part in your own life.

It is, of course, a measure of both. I definitely advocate for taking responsibility and taking an active role in forging your own path in life, as a quick scan of my posting history should show. I've taken offense before at responses in threads where people assert "you're one of the lucky ones" to a woman describing her own successful transition. It generally takes a lot of planning and effort to make yourself look that lucky ... but it's foolish to think that we are in complete control. I didn't transition 20 years ago in part because it didn't even seem like a remote possibility in our society, and I'm exceedingly grateful that my dysphoria was manageable enough that I was able to suppress and deal with things on the schedule I did. I'm also grateful that I was dealt a relatively kind hand, genetically speaking. I don't have any illusions about having as easy a time of it starting from a dramatically more masculine body type.

I think that your view that we should not be critical of each other is just a lot of Kumbaya.

Criticism when warranted is a powerful and useful tool. That's certainly not what I was (wait for it...) criticizing. A thoughtful critique is one thing, reflexively calling someone out because their life of misery inconveniently creates an easy negative example in a public debate about the merits of social recognition of gender identity is quite another. (That assertion intended as more of a comment on the thread in general than any statement of yours that leaps to mind, Kathryn. You raise many perfectly reasonable points worthy of discussion.)

[becky77]

Boy! Do I agree with this, although again...what do you mean by "transition"?

I guess I mean passed the point of no return really, but revealing to everyone you are TS can be damaging enough and irreversable.

[Sandra]

Anyway...just for the sake of this discussion, you can assume that I had my SRS many years ago and I did not suffer from any or all of that discrimination, confusion, bigotry, hatred, family problems of job losses,

Really then you must be the only person who has had to so easy, care to share where you did your transitioning? IMHO I don't believe you let me say why..my SO who is on the forum has had an very easy transition but she and I have suffered, no where near as much as some of the TSs here, so I find it very hard to believe you.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Perhaps you may be right that "some transsexuals regret". I would argue that your qualifying your assertion by using the term "some", makes it essentially a useless assertion. Also, I have no idea how you define 'transsexual'.

It is like asserting that "some" days are cloudy. It essentially says nothing. On the other hand when LeaP asserts that "most" regretters tend to be non-TS, then there is something that can be examined. In fact, this is something that I would probably agree with although I would have to add the caveat that I would need some further clarification of the terms "transition" and "non-TS".

just stop it... you are so predictable...

Some people regret their decision...it is a simple fact...

guess what...I said it in direct response to a link THAT YOU POSTED!!!!!
You told us all to check out the link about the idea that some people regret transition on a 20 year old website that most of us read 100 times.

I was directing pointing out the empty nature of what you posted....which you have now kindly validated....

any other links we should look at??


my overall point is that people regret all kinds of things..."TS Regret" is a concept that has way too much gravitas...its a big decision, its a big life change...people screw up...crap happens in life...learning and experience crash into guilt and shame and fear...people run out of money...some people are just flat out fools... there is no magic to it.... its a concept that is used against the broader transsexual community as if there is some magical bar we must all cross or we will deal with the dreaded "TS REGRET".... the idea that "TS REGRET" exists is used against us because it is foisted up by haters to prove their point that being ts is a fraud....its used by people in our families and communities as blunt objects...its used by people that are against us and they hold up these regretters (many who are not TS, others are just sad souls) as if they have even one little bit to do with me..

"hey K I found this site on ts regret!!....check it out!!! you do know K that some people regret the decision right!!!" I could give a S**t
This is precisely what you did.....


Take a step back..if you care to, start over...
if you transitioned a while back and it was good...what you can do for people is share specifically what you did...when you did it...how you did it...how old were you...etc etc... that's what we all did...until you do that...you are just ether.

[SassySal]

"...so you agree now that life generally sucks? (and doesn't even care!!) I couldn't have said that better myself... You said my reality..."

This is not my reality. I cannot relate to your reality. I cannot relate to a reality of being in my mid 50's and sharing your perception of life. I admit that most likely there is very little that I can say that you personally might find of value.

Nevertheless, there may be people who are in their early twenties or younger who find value in my words. Honestly, I take no pleasure in responding to the many personal attacks on my personal integrity and do in fact find it tiresome especially when my apparently poor attempts at explanation are just fodder for even more anger being directed my way.

The OP was about those in the "trans*-community" distancing themselves from those who "de-transitioned" or "failed" at transition. The discussion devolved into what I see as random theorizing based on hearsay or "stuff read on the net" or in forums. This is why I offered the link to Lynn's site in an attempt to provide some concrete examples. Just because you think that "most of you have read that 100 times" does not mean that there might not be "some" among you that might find some wisdom in the actual experience of those who are brave enough to talk/write about there mistakes.

Its you I don't trust because you don't put out any information about who you are, what your OWN views or experiences are, or about why you are here.

"You have also indicated in your past posts that you were not transsexual. "

Well...it seems that a lot of the confusion stems from the fact that "many" (you included?) seem take an assertion made by LeaP that I am not, or "must not be" TS, as fact.

My response to that absurd fantasy based assertion was ah......well....it's just not here anymore.

[Kimberly Kael]

The "prove you are who you say you are" club can get tiresome, but I do understand where some of the skepticism comes from. There really are people who live out fantasy lives online, describing their perfect lives and handing out advice based on pure fiction. For better or for worse, being wary is a learned survival instinct. Only time and what feel like authentic, vulnerable exchanges help to remove that barrier.

It is harder to take someone at face value when their experience seems so completely foreign. I suspect there are those who doubt me, too, because my life falls closer to the pipe dream end of the spectrum than most. Where I think the community here gets it right is to avoid setting an expectation that transition should be free of drama, doubt, and setbacks. Better to be pleasantly surprised occasionally than to cross that line unaware of the risks involved. Where I take issue is the groupthink that rejects any narrative that doesn't toe that line.

Interpreting observations that life isn't fair as agreeing that life sucks seems like an extension of this mindset: reject everything that doesn't reinforce your beliefs. The universe doesn't look out for me any more than anyone else but I have built a life for myself that I absolutely love, even with its occasional challenges and irritations.

[Nigella]

This thread has gone way off topic so time to say