Headline! Tranny Drives Bus Over Ex-Friend!

[becky77]

In my limited experience peoples GD or level of Transexualism is different, is it possible those that have it the strongest and are so sure are a little hard on those that have greater doubt, but have maybe gone through the system, passed the gatekeepers etc.
I can think of one person (not on here) that I have my doubts over, she has been through all the proper channels done the RLE and is soon to be having SRS. I can't speak for someones inner turmoil but I wouldn't be surprised if she detransitions later on and I could only pity her if that was the case. Surely not everyone that does it is like Charles Kane??
My fear is that some people have their own demons coupled with some level of Transgenderism. How likely is it that a therapist concludes it to be gender identity, it's so complex an issue. The only people I would condem are those that choose to poison the rest of us, admit you made a mistake or couldn't do it and disappear quietly.
I agree with Melissa's statement "The problem is a huge number of people on this forum have never done ANYTHING in public. How does someone who has never even cross dressed in daylight have any idea about a gender transition?" I think it's dangerous not to have that experience before proceeding, you may well have female identity and be totally TS but if when push comes to shove you can't hack the real world, what then?
I read these threads and wonder if I should even reply, I'm in transition and full of my own doubts, I question myself constantly, it can be a pretty shitty world out there and the future frightens me. I could do with some support sometimes, but it feels more like the opposite at times. I realise there must be a lot of deluded or bogus people pass through here, there is way too much suspicion on here what does it take to be believed? I honestly don't know what to think, I agree it's irresponsible to encourage someone, but it doesn't help to fill them with more doubts and confusion also. I hear often that being TS has an element of Self diagnosis, if thats the case is it any surprise when some diagnoses incorrectly?
What advise is good advise when you don't even know if that person is the real deal? Should we be so quick to judge when we don't actually know the facts?
So someone detransitioned, are you so quick to dimiss them when you have no idea what their story is? I don't see why it would harm me, Mr Kane shouldn't be taken serious by anyone and if there are mistakes and it makes therapists more careful, doesn't that protect all of us?
Those that detransition most likely did plan everything perfectly, had the money for the hormones and certain surgeries, one day they say tada i'm a girl and the real reality hits home. Those are the fools. But the ones in catagory 2 and 3, as Corinne says, too many shades of grey. If you transition and your not full of doubts and fear, well that can't be normal can it? But with that doubt and fear some will fall and some will realise they got it wrong.
Everyone knows Transition is a risk.

[LeaP]

What?
Where are the threads suggesting people go DIY and bypass the system?

Just like the mythical "you go grrrrl" posts people ....

I never said anyone was suggesting going that route or advocating transition, for that matter. What I do see is an endless stream of inquiries on how to go about getting hormones on your own. There are also frequent references to people doing things on their own. Frequent references to people bypassing any kind of real therapeutic assessment. Often these are presented as if they were working within the system and standards of care, when in fact they are complete negations of the intent.

[Marleena]

Sometimes reading the threads in this section make me want to step in front of a moving bus.

That said I mostly agree with the OP and Michelle.M's post saves me typing my own thoughts. The longer I'm here the less suffering I see the better, even if it means detransitioning for somebody or avoiding transition altogether (whatever works). I realize not everybody can or needs to make it to the Holy Grail.

[LeaP]

Thoughtful post with a lot of themes, Becky.

On the topic of self-doubt, I like Kaitlyn's answer a lot. Doubt can be viewed as irrelevant to the discussion because everyone has doubts. I could give a list, but there's no way any such list could be exhaustive. Because doubt is universal, actions, responsibility, and consequence, as Kaitlyn put it so well, are king (or queen!). And when it comes to action, responsibility, and consequence, few things in life put more more on the line than transition. It's why Misty likes to talk about transitioners and not theoretical transsexuals. Why Kathryn likes to talk about agency. And it provides additional context to this thread, which is about consequences.

Your remark about strength is off the mark, though. Transition is unquestionably hard, but strength (courage, etc.) as a personal quality isn't necessarily the source of resilience that get people through. I feel far more vulnerable than I ever have in many ways. Less brave, less inclined to challenge and conquer. Yet I am more resilient. I get up quicker when knocked down. I keep going (for now! ... ask me again in a couple of months). In my case, I chalk it up to being better, or finally grounded in my own sense of self.

Taking your acquaintance at face value, she is completely unlike Kane. I might pity her failure too, but assuming (as I likely would) that she had any responsibility for the failure, I would call her on it. Were I close enough, I hope I would then help her over it. But the failures need to be called, lest they recur. Of course, one position - oft taken by those post-transition, in fact - is that they have no credibility anyway, so perhaps it's pointless. But they keep trying! Now THERE'S strength! I have a friend who was warned about being too free with telling friends, family, and others about her status, to no avail. There were consequences. She now warns others. And so it goes ...

A therapist's JOB is to distinguish co-morbidities and side-effect conditions from more fundamental issues like identity. It is VERY well and widely understood that gender issues manifest for a variety of reasons other than gender identity itself. This is why I'm appalled that any practitioner would jump to the conclusion of trans-anything without having conducted a differential diagnosis, which is part and parcel of how such things are parsed, diagnosed, and treated.

Take on-line advice with a huge grain of salt. It took a while, but I developed real-world contacts over time, including some from this site. Then, once you understand THEIR reality, you know both their biases as well as the limits of how far to take such advice. I agree with Misty that this can be a dangerous place. Helpful. Sometimes a godsend, but potentially dangerous as well.

You ask about dismissing someone before you know what their story is. It's a fair question. Let me take it as-is. One reason is that transition failure is every bit as monumental as some are wont to describe it. Simply put, the standard for going through transition once and only once is that in transitioning you just put every bit of credibility you have in play, with everyone, everywhere. Detransition and you have forever compromised it, perhaps even destroyed it. And that relates to not just things like your ability to plan or persevere, but to your identity itself. Circumstances? Under which circumstances do natal women turn to becoming men? (There are a few outside of the trans world, but if you thought transsexuality was rare ...).

There is no such thing as perfect planning or preparation though, again, failures (or excuses) in such things that lead directly to consequences are rightly condemned. People can collapse under the weight of their own failures - but detransition isn't the inevitable consequence. What do I make of someone who says they had to transition or die ... detransitions and, well, doesn't? Sure, I'll pity them, too. But I'll also rail against the personal and systemic failures that enabled such a life-destroying f***up. (And Lord save me from same.)

[Jonianne]

......My goal is to get a constructive conversation on the real-world effects of detransitions, for good or bad......

I understand how those opposed to anyone transitioning (especially for religious reasons) would use detransitioners of any ilk as an example to point fingers and it doesn't matter what their reasons were. The ones (detransitioners) I really have an issue with are ones like Jerry Leach, who as a so-called "ex-transsexual", spent his life in a ministry against the LGBT community. I don't think he holds much sway in the medical or insurance industry, but the real-world damage he has done to individuals is tremendous, speaking from personal experience. I could not throw any of those who quietly go back to the way they were before, 'under the bus'. In any community there are going to be bad examples, that those opposed will use as proof they were 'right'. I think it is more important to focus on the successful transitioners and point to them when others try to detract us and harm us by trying to withhold proper medical care.

In the right context, someone who detransitions, could be a good effect, ie. the system worked (as long as it wasn't too late). For those who have doubts, they may be reluctant to detransition if they really need to, because they know they will be condemned and thrown under the bus. I think giving those honest individuals a free pass out, without our community putting them to more shame, is more profitable for all.

[Kathryn Martin]

I read these threads and wonder if I should even reply, I'm in transition and full of my own doubts, I question myself constantly, it can be a pretty shitty world out there and the future frightens me. I could do with some support sometimes, but it feels more like the opposite at times. I realise there must be a lot of deluded or bogus people pass through here, there is way too much suspicion on here what does it take to be believed? I honestly don't know what to think, I agree it's irresponsible to encourage someone, but it doesn't help to fill them with more doubts and confusion also. I hear often that being TS has an element of Self diagnosis, if thats the case is it any surprise when some diagnoses incorrectly?

Becky, there are doubts and then there are other doubts. What the nature of the doubt is is the crucial question. I think that those that transition (and I mean the day that you go full time ready to take on the world not the day you go to your therapist or the day you start hormones) must have come to the point where the nature of who they are is no longer a question. If you have any doubt about being a woman or a man, if you think that you may be a woman or a man and transition then really you're just giving it a whirl. Because essentially you are saying "let's see if I like it". Your nature is at that point in time contingent and not fully fathomed.

If you doubt whether you can make it through, whether you will bring your loved ones with you, whether you can sustain severe financial loss simply by transitioning then welcome to the club. We would be inhuman if we did not have those doubts. And if you feel the need to de-transition for those reason I will stand with you and do what I can to help you be yourself.

So someone detransitioned, are you so quick to dimiss them when you have no idea what their story is?

Those that detransition most likely did plan everything perfectly, had the money for the hormones and certain surgeries, one day they say tada i'm a girl and the real reality hits home.

Except for what I have qualified above the question is not what their specific circumstances are. The Mr. Kane's of this world are the example that we are confronted with by everyone. They are the reason you are doubted when you say that you must transition. You say Mr. Kane should not be taken seriously, yet when someone asks you why? or why now? it is the Messrs. Kanes that they have in mind. And when they tell if you must risk everything then it the Messrs. Kane that are whispering into their ears. They will think and sometimes say that you are risking everything for a lark because the Messrs. Kane went before you and it turned out a lark for him. And when health services says you are a man when they assess you and deny you or your are a woman who is not entitled to a hysterectomy because you are taking testosterone and are causing your symptoms then it is Messrs. Kane sitting in their office and tells them what to write.

[becky77]

If you doubt whether you can make it through, whether you will bring your loved ones with you, whether you can sustain severe financial loss simply by transitioning then welcome to the club. We would be inhuman if we did not have those doubts. And if you feel the need to de-transition for those reason I will stand with you and do what I can to help you be yourself.

That's my point, but that seems a change of stance from the earlier answers. And some (I have met these people) are doing it for what I believe are the wrong reasons, just my opinion and I hope I'm wrong. I don't know how much I trust these therapists, I believe it's too easy to tell them what they want to hear. Yes, I totally agree that someone who bends the system can't be defended, but what of those that truly think that is their path and the therapist doesn't find the real underlying problem? I'm sure it happens and those people will detransition and it will be awful hard on them.
I'm speaking from inexperience as I don't know anyone who has detransitioned, so perhaps my answers are invalid. All i'm saying is, that I won't be throwing them under the bus unless they are proven fools.
You have to remember your system in the US is different to ours here, we use the NHS and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think there is too many coming through a small establishment, waiting lists are huge and because appts. are so hard to come by there is almost a statement on your entry papers, words to the effect of "you better be TS and not waste our time", so before you get the help you need you have to almost convince yourself you are TS.
To get that referral in the first place is a pathetic screening process. You see 2 psychiatrists (some don't even do that now, it's can be just a doctors referral) they rule out depression, rule out mental health then off you go you're trans. I'm not saying the system doesn't work, just that I can see some people will go through misguided because of the pressure that GIC are under. Is it any different from going to the hospital and the staff are so busy, the waiting lists so long that some people are misdiagnosed? We hear stories all the time that someones Cancer has been missed because it's been diagnosed as something else. These are just people and people are fallible.

Lea
"Your remark about strength is off the mark, though. Transition is unquestionably hard, but strength (courage, etc.) as a personal quality isn't necessarily the source of resilience that get people through."

I was referring to the strength of your GD and therefore certainty. Some people are born with such strong GD that they won't make it to puberty without screaming for change. Others it doesn't gain momentum until much later in life. Some on here are so certain and others very much balancing on the cusp, one can't associate with the other. I can't understand why someone won't climb a ladder because I don't have a fear of heights, but that shouldn't stop me empathising with there plight.

[Kathryn Martin]

......words to the effect of "you better be TS and not waste our time", so before you get the help you need you have to almost convince yourself you are TS.

To get that referral in the first place is a pathetic screening process. You see 2 psychiatrists (some don't even do that now, it's can be just a doctors referral) they rule out depression, rule out mental health then off you go you're trans.

This sounds slightly harsh with respect to the "words" there is a lot of wisdom in the stance that you describe your health care system takes. With one exception: I think that no amount of self convincing can create the medical condition of being transsexed. I keep trying to make the point that being transsexed is not so much a matter self discovery but self actualization. One of the biggest problems is that self discovery with the assistance of a gender counselor tends to in more or less subtle ways consist of reinforcement of gender stereotypes with the patient increasingly walking through the glittering park of personal desire to be something else than they are, much in the way of having greener grass on the other side of the gender divide. But being transsexed really has nothing to do with that.

That is perfectly fine, but it is if you deconstruct it essentially a rearing up against gender stereotypes and prohibitions. Whether you call it gender creative, gender variant, gender rebel, queer or transgender it is not being transsexed. And it rarely leads to re-assignment surgery.

Transsexuals are very sure of their gender and in healing their bodies through hormones and SRS (or doing as much as they can in that respect for reasons of health concerns and lack of funding which is not at issue in the UK and Canada) the simply actualize who they are in the first place. This takes nothing away from the doubts discussed above. But for those that are, de-transitioning as a result of external pressures is a personal tragedy of unbelievable proportions.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

DOes anyone personally know anyone who has detransitioned?? the only one I know RE transitioned after a suicide attempt...it was early on but she had already had ffs and srs ...

she did not do a real life because she "didn't need to"

her detransition was a nightmare and was driven by anxiety and angst over her youngest daughter who would no longer spend time with her...

[becky77]

One of the biggest problems is that self discovery with the assistance of a gender counselor tends to in more or less subtle ways consist of reinforcement of gender stereotypes with the patient increasingly walking through the glittering park of personal desire to be something else than they are, much in the way of having greener grass on the other side of the gender divide. But being transsexed really has nothing to do with that.

Biggest problems? So you recognise it's a problem and the the said person "with the assistance of a gender counselor"could albeit by delusion be guided to the wrong choice? I believe it happens.
I don't want to get too deep into this as I can't see that we are actually disagreeing with each other?
My observation comes form talking to many Transgendered people that are stuck somewhere inbetween, they don't like and don't celebrate being Trans, they either try to bury it or wish for a life as a female. But are they truly TS? how many TS have been at that point in time, society doesn't make it easy either.
One friend I know is suffering greatly, she has a young family and is trying hard to maintain that but it's getting harder and harder. Her GD is uncontrollable and she is now using her referral to go to the specialists in London. She is already on hormones and such is her need I could see her in desperation transitioning. I think she believes it maybe her only option to stay sane, she certainly isn't able to think straight right now. It is her that I think of in this conversation, I think she is vulnerable to making the wrong choice, and I just hope the specialists diagnose properly, but if they don't......... I'm just saying I sympathise as I think it's a minefield. Comes back to experience, she doesn't go out in public, hasn't interacted with people as a woman. I know this isn't easy as once discovered etc, but go for a break, go to another town. Find out how it feels rather than how you think it feels. Maybe your right, comes full circle to planning again doesn't it!

.it was early on but she had already had ffs and srs ...

she did not do a real life because she "didn't need to"

Why didn't she need to Kaitlyn? She had FFS and SRS with no real life experience?

[Michelle.M]

DOes anyone personally know anyone who has detransitioned??

Not detransitioned (post surgery), but I know someone who stopped her RLE and went back to living as a man. She never really did feel comfortable in girl mode and concluded that her issues were not gender identity related. She (now he) is still in therapy and working to discover the real reason behind his issues.

[arbon]

DOes anyone personally know anyone who has detransitioned??

.

Only one person that I personally know but she transitioned over 20 years ago and onlly went back because she had become homeless and and things were really tough. Survival

But she did re-transition a few years ago and doing much better this time around

[LeaP]

That's my point, but that seems a change of stance from the earlier answers. ... I don't know how much I trust these therapists, I believe it's too easy to tell them what they want to hear. Yes, I totally agree that someone who bends the system can't be defended, but what of those that truly think that is their path and the therapist doesn't find the real underlying problem? ...

... I won't be throwing them under the bus unless they are proven fools.

Lea

I was referring to the strength of your GD and therefore certainty. ...

I need to (further) clarify the rhetorical device used for the thread title. I used the "throw under a bus" notion for several reasons, including thread-to-thread continuity, brevity, to introduce verbal lightness on a very serious subject (got some heat on that, but oh well), and finally, in reference to what actually happens in roasting those who fail - but also to introduce some distinctions. I made some in my OP, particularly distinguishing morals-based condemnations from other issues.

The difficulty people have - all of us have at times, honestly - in making such distinctions and deciding when and how to emphasize one of these concepts or combine several in any given case, is all over this thread. Your (or my) "proven fools" (and toss under the bus, or condemn) is someone else's sympathy case. Kathryn isn't contradicting herself, she is making the distinction between calling the failure and condemning the person.

I happen to have lucked into finding an incredible therapist. Going on 30 year's experience, tons of trans-whatever clients for decades from basket case misc. gender issues to childhood TS. She conducted intake Q&A for most of the first 2-3 sessions. The analysis, diagnosis, and treatment cycle extended for well over 9 months, most of it focusing on co-morbidities. We didn't discuss gender or, more accurately, she would not dive into that topic, for several months until the other issues had been dealt with. The answer was invariably "let's sort this out first and see if the gender feelings persist and what they look like." She doesn't overemphasize gatekeeping, but has turned away any number of clients who are, in her words, "hormone shopping."

I started pressing the topic about 7 months in as I came out of my (depressed) shell, and a month after that, when I had decided on HRT and asked her if she would write the letter, her answer was "of course," delivered with a smile. (Her response floored me, in fact, given the months of not even discussing the subject.) The word "transsexual" never left her lips in regard to me until about 18 months or so along,and it was a passing reference even then. Here's the key - not because she hadn't come to that conclusion long before, but because the point of the exercise was actually therapy - process and help - as much or more than diagnosis. I was, and am still, asked what I've done, what I want, how I feel, have I considered, might such-and-such be sufficient, what if, are you ready for such and such a consequence, etc.

After I moved to another region, I found a new therapist. Eyow! What a difference! In spite of having pretty good gender client exposure over the last 2-3 years, having largely taken over from the area's go-to therapist who left the area, she brings nothing to the table. I went for 5-6 sessions then went back to my first therapist, despite having to travel. I've also been to other practitioners throughout life for a variety of reasons, with similar mixed experiences.

So, while I've seen the stellar possibilities, I entirely agree with you that you can't simply trust a therapist. And you're right, the problem is two-sided, consisting of both incompetent therapists and disingenuous clients. I think it very difficult to fool a therapist who DOES conduct a rigorous differential diagnosis over an extended period, however. One would have to be not only an accomplished liar, but have sufficient knowledge of any number of specialty practice areas to pull it off, besides having to maintain consistency. But even that does happen.

Getting back to those who are truly convinced of the path and actually have other issues, I'll grant you that the capacity to fool one's self seems to be infinite sometimes, but it appears to be pretty rare for such to make it all the way to transition and, in particular, into surgeries. There are a lot of reasons for this which are irrelevant here, the point being that those who don't go that far then stop are RARELY condemned, especially by transsexuals! It comes up here regularly, and the response is invariably congratulatory, with praise and encouragement. I can recall one such in the last few weeks. But the detransitioner or the unprepared transitioner (there are some of those here, too) tends to get it with both barrels. But on the substance (in public, anyway) less on moral judgements. Transition is a pretty bright line.

I suppose either way it's getting tossed under the bus when it comes to this last. But the TS commitment to stressing realities is incredibly, and rightfully strong. I would have it no other way, because I need it.

[Starling]

My greatest fear is being alone, at my age; and I would rather live out my life as a an effed-up old man with old friends and loved ones than as a lonely, unloved woman.

Lallie

[Rianna Humble]

That is very interesting, Lallie, when I first sought professional help to get this transition under way, my words were similar but opposite to yours, I said that I would rather die a lonely old woman than live one more day as the man I have never really been.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Right Rianna.

I could not imagine my last thought being regretting that I never lived as myself. As much as I denied my nature over the years I couldn't ask for more "proof" about what I needed to do

[becky77]

I must admit that is my take on your statement too, I couldn't bare to die with that regret sitting so heavily on me. I would rather die having tried and failed, than not tried at all.
Maybe those old friends and family will still be with you?
Because if you feel that your life is not what it should be and your friends and family would abandon you if they knew, then they are they real friends? If you suspect your friends and family only like the person that you hide behind and thats not truly you, then in a way you are lonely, inside.

[Starling]

You know, I go back and forth by the hour. I live with almost overwhelming regret, over the fact I was born trans in an age of ignorance, intolerance and real danger of being declared insane; over denying my true nature for so long out of fear; over getting married (to a non-lesbian) for need of love. It's just that I'm already so effing old! Since Empress Lainie went to her reward, I may be the oldest non-transitioned woman on this thing. And with my medical situation, there's a good chance I'll wind up dying on one operating table or another (as I got perilously close to in 2012) in the not-too-distant future. I could be wrong about that, and if I were fifty instead of decades older, I guarantee I'd go ahead without much hesitation.

I was on the launch pad, ready to transition, just two years ago. On HRT, undergoing electrolysis, seeing a counselor and coming out to a few intimates. And I could still live as a woman now, if only two of my three major obstacles were to fall away. In that event, I wouldn't mind dying on the operating table under my real name, full of piss and estrogen, my last thoughts being of how wonderful the rest of my life could be with a little more of this, and a little less of that.

Lallie

[SassySal]

I am thinking that a thorough review of the examples listed at the end of this link, (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html), should offer some useful insight into this most troubling of outcomes.

A more recent example can be found by 'googling' Christine Daniels, although I am afraid that most of the more pertinent details have been 'sterilized' for the purposes of political expediency. The facts remain that mistakes were made and the results were tragic.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

You know sal....I've read back through your posts and something is off...

I don't trust you

[arbon]

neither do I!

[Aprilrain]

DOes anyone personally know anyone who has detransitioned??

Can't say as I do, come to think of it.

My GF has had serious enough doubts about transition to cut her hair and purge all her clothes but she regretted doing it and grew her hair back out and bought more clothes. That was before I met her.

My ex-BF has gone on and off hormones a couple of times now but he never even came close to actually transitioning.

"It's a hard-knock life"

[Rianna Humble]

SassySal's link tries to perpetuate the myth that Renée Richards regretted her transition by making reference to a media article entitled "The Lady Regrets" from the start of February 2007. It conveniently sidesteps another interview that she gave two weeks later to refute the slanted reporting and to point out that what she actually regretted was the pursuit of fame as a transsexual.

Another headline misrepresentation relates to Sam/Samantha/Charles Kane who bypassed all the safeguards and bought himself a dv (IMNSHO that is not a real transition).

The other "regret" stories featured are from people who admit they lied their way through the medical screening and therefore blame the people that they lied to for not realising it was a lie.

[stefan37]

Unfortunately there is no more personal responsibility. Make a poor decision, blame it on others. The sadness is society and the courts reinforce that irresponsibility
Get drunk and kill somebody. Sue the bar. Disable all safety devices on a lawn mower, stick your hand in and sure the manufacturer for making a faulty device.

Until society and the court system start to hold people responsible for their actions it will only get worse. And we all suffer as a result.

There can be 1000 successful transitions, but only the 1 failure will get the attention and be a detriment to those that need to transition.

[Angela Campbell]

There is only the few who have experienced this that truly understand it. I find it interesting that some who don't look for stories about the ones who went badly and focus on that rather than trying to actually understand this.

What about the stories of the ones in the past who could not transition and just couldn't go on living. Who focuses on that?