How do we really feel about feminine or more androgynous men?

[maya1love]

Hello all:

It has taken me a few days to come up with the right question to ask this forum.

Here's what I'm thinking -- if society (and ourselves) were more accepting of feminine or androgynous men (and found them to be an attractive alternative), would we still be crossdressers? As a gay man, I often encounter gay men who are *very* comfortable with their femininity, but have no desire to dress in women's clothes and pass as women. They are true fashionistas -- they wear bright colours, speak in a more feminine voice and have occupations that are somewhat feminine, and definitely not masculine. I live in a large city where being gay is quite accepted.

I often find that when I ask crossdressers how they really feel about just being a feminine man, they have a hard time finding that aesthetically attractive. They seem to be "polar" in their thinking of what it is to be a man or to be a woman. In their day to day lives as men, they have very masculine roles, and they have limited outlets for expressing their femininity. They are primarily attracted to women. All of their friends are straight. When they dress, it is euphoric (as it was for me). For me, dressing then became a sexual outlet and a place where I could express more feminine fantasies as well, and this only added to my desire to do it more and to get a release from it. I have become attached to the persona that I have created. In my younger years, it lead to feelings of wanting to transition (until I realized that that was not for me).

If I'm being totally honest, I think I also have a traditional sense of masculinity and femininity, and don't find it personally attractive to see "mixing" of those energies in one person. I am perhaps more internally "chauvinistic" -- "a man's role is this and a woman's role is that". Traditional gender roles are more exciting for me. But, I am getting better at understanding masculinity and femininity on this earth. After about 20 years of dressing up, I feel more comfortable with the idea of being labelled as a "feminine man" by society. I seem to dress much less often. I compare notes with my feminine gay male friends and I am astonished at how similar we are, except that I enjoy dressing up and they don't. These feminine gay men also express similar feminine fantasies except they are not tied to wearing women's clothes. Could this be that I am integrating my femininity into my day to day life?

My theory above may not be the full picture. There may be a genetic reason why some men gravitate towards wearing women's clothes. And, there are degrees of being transgender. There are those who will feel comfortable transitioning fully and they will be happy and fulfilled. But I wonder how many of us (garden variety crossdressers) would just be eased by expressing our femininity more in our day to day lives? Would we dress less?

[CynthiaD]

I see nothing wrong with mixing masculine and feminine. However, when I present as male, I personally prefer to act masculine. Perhaps it's just habit. I can't really say why.

[maya1love]

Oh, I wish to clarify and emphasize -- we may not be opposed to others mixing masculine and feminine, but for some reason, we have traditional aesthetic preferences as to how WE present. Could this be where we may need to change? To see the beauty in mixing and then become that ourselves, so WE (including me!) are not so polar?

[Sara Jessica]

A lot of it depends on one's own POV. As for me, I've often said that I have little issue with the gender binary that we live with in society, it's just that I was drafted to the wrong team. Seems very similar to your angle Maya.

[Renee Elise]

Hi Maya, interesting topic...I love women and have a very strong attraction to femininity. I like being a guy and have come to discover that I have an inner lady too. When I'm in girl mode I feel happy with my look and enjoy being totally feminine. As a guy (usual appearance) I wouldn't want to mix and match necessarily. If what you alluded to below were to happen somewhere, I might feel more comfortable being out en femme though .

[Teresa]

Maya,
Gender is becoming far more blurred men and women are sharing the same jobs. Men on the whole are taking better care of themselves and I feel women are less feminine then they were. Far more men are housekeepers, roles are far more interchangeable . I also feel that very few people like ultra masculine men, we certainly are heading towards a more androgynous society . Armed and civil forces are having to accept CDers, gay and other minority groups. Traditional male/ female roles may excite you and no one can stop you having those feelings but the world is changing and defined roles are gradually disappearing. I was a photographer for thirty years, I couldn't name a single female one when I started , now there almost as many women in all branches of the profession than men !
How wonderful I could start again as Teresa ! First problem what outfit do I wear ?

[noeleena]

Hi,

Then you would throw me out the door, as an intersexed female im not trans or a dresser, just a female who is a mix of both male and female quite simply put .

how do i express my femininity am i feminine enough when i sure as dont look like a female facial wise, so you no doubt would say with out knowing me or seeing me oh yes another dresser acting out a fantisy trying to be like a woman,

You can meet me any time and i will say the same as every one around me knows me very well my friends some 1500 no its not made up its fact with in our membership and being well accepted , with in our groups,

so try this trained as a builder worked in the heavy building sector on farms and did other trades , i stand at 5,9 weigh in at 11 stone = 154 lb,s a female body in many aspects and was not like a normal male though percived as one though some knew i was different , and were not surprised i told them i was a female ,

i see you divide masculine from feminine oh dear , that wont work for myself as im both . a mix really ,and as to doing things again i can do ether male or female and i do and have done all my life, i dont have any barriers other than i cant bear my child , or children ,

And just to tidy it up im a non sexual no male or female sexual organs, apart from the brain and that could be debatable, now that should stir the mind a bit, love it,

...noelenna...

[maya1love]

Noelenna, I don't think what I said applies to you. I think there is definitely a biological/genetic basis for being trans too. However, I can't help feel that most of the crossdressers that I have met in my life (and that is many many people) are traditionalists in terms of whether they personally would like to mix their masculinity and femininity. Have a look at this interesting closed thread: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...t=#post2560097

[Beverley Sims]

I really don't think it would matter, gay men are a different breed to cross dressers.
We would still dress and they would show their sexuality the same as they always have.
The two are not interchangeable.

[LilSissyStevie]

As long as there is a stigma against being a feminine male or a masculine woman, it will be difficult to know what our "natural" inclinations are. The categories in our culture line up like this: masculine man=good, feminine woman=good, feminine man (sissy)=bad, masculine woman (dyke)=bad. Do I cross dress because being a "woman" is more acceptable than being a "fairy"? I think in my case it started out that way. I learned early, in order to survive, to suppress or hide any inclinations that might be considered feminine. Even in my mind, being a feminine male was unacceptable. So when the suppressed feminine longings finally asserted themselves, it was more acceptable to think of it as some kind of "inner woman" than to admit that I might just be a bit of a sissy. Even if "society" in general wasn't hostile to male femininity, there would still be the fact that heterosexual males who show overt signs of femininity don't get laid. That is reason enough for most guys to suppress femininity or to section off their "feminine side."

As I got older I went through different phases: pushing the boundaries of androgyny in one phase to hyper-masculinity to metrosexuality back to crossdressing always trying to find something that worked for me. When I think about it, I've been able to incorporate much of what I once considered feminine into my everyday persona. Not so much the clothes but I care a lot less about appearance than most CDs it seems. The main issue for me has always been that my "autogynephila" nearly cripples my ability to perform as a man yet I'm only attracted to females. For that reason I've always been somewhat envious of effeminate gay men. They may not be the hottest item even in the gay community but at least they have some kind of a niche. There doesn't seem to be much of a niche for a "gay bottom trapped in a straight mans brain" which is one way I've often thought of myself. Fortunately, I'm married to a woman that is able and willing to find a way to make it work.

[Katey888]

Interesting thoughts, Maya... I think you've hit any number of conundrums about us as a community... like...

gay men are a different breed to cross dressers.

Bev - I'm going to assume that you mean that their motivations may be subtly different to bi or hetero CDers as we clearly have a reasonable number of gay CDers amongst us here...

But what you say, Maya, is interesting when you speak of femininity in men and yourself... for not all feminine men are gay, nor are all gay men feminine (I believe) and these largely are the stereotypes that society relies on to make things easy for the muggles... And I really think it comes down to that: the vast majority of folk are completely polarised in their gender and/or sexuality. They have no issues with the chauvinism of society - in fact, it makes it much easier for everyone to fit in with their own stereotype and lead a completely 'normal' life.
It's us 'freaks' in the LGBTQ (and other) communities who have difficulty and suffer the stigma of simply being different.

To address your point - I have no issues with men presenting in a more feminine way; curiously (but perhaps unsurprisingly) I've started to do that myself recently... nails, eyebrows - subtle things - but I still have the urge and the need to go further, sometimes... I don't know why...

I could go further as a 'feminine man'... it would probably be a darn sight easier than going the full CD thing! But something makes me want to do this... I can't figure it out so all I can do is approach it like sailing in fog: proceed with extreme caution and treat every unknown as a hazard to be negotiated... I wish it were either easier or more explainable...

Katey x

[Eryn]

I find that, as I go through my own adventure, I am less and less afraid of appearing androgynous in my private life. I've proven my bone-fides, been married for decades, have two children, etc. so I really don't feel as though I have anything to prove. I'm not attempting to attract a mate, attract business, or anything else that demands that I maintain a particular image. If my friends don't like the way I dress then they are free to stop interacting with me. It hasn't happened.

Now, when it comes to work, I lean more to the male side. My earrings get smaller, I wear jeans rather than Capris, and print T-shirts become polo shirts. This grates on me, but it is what I have to make to keep the money flowing in and my family running.

[Jenniferathome]

Here's what I love about human beings. In every relationship: man and woman, two men or two women there is ALWAYS a masculine and feminine role. My wife and I have several gay couple friends and all of them have a distinct masculine and feminine role player. In fact, in every relationship I have ever witnessed, gay or straight, there is a "man" and a "woman" playing their part, regardless of their DNA. Somehow we humans have a common need. It's great.

[flatlander_48]

As a bisexual male, and for reasons that remain unclear to me, I am attracted to difference. Not really sure why this is, but it can cause you to reconsider things based on being exposed to a different viewpoint. I've known feminine men and masculine women, albeit, not on an intimate level. But, what I've learned is to essentially take people as they present themselves. If they are comfortable, why should I expect them to be any different? I see no reason for me to invest any energy in thinking about how someone else should be. The reward, I think, is for me to be allowed to be who I need to be; without interference or the guilt of unmet expectations.

[Leslie Langford]

maya, you make some very compelling and thought-provoking points in your post, but I was especially struck by this one comment:

"...These feminine gay men also express similar feminine fantasies except they are not tied to wearing women's clothes..."

And yet, one finds that even though many gay men might not have any particular desire to wear women's clothes themselves - even the gay drag queens typically claim that it is just a "job" for them - they nevertheless seem strongly attracted to the fashion, hairstyling and make-up industries, and often excel in those roles.

They may not find women sexually attractive, but they sure seem to enjoy their company when it comes to treating them like their personal Barbie dolls and making them look as gorgeous as possible through their efforts.

Equally puzzling sometimes is the fact that most hetero women are put off by crossdressers (as we here well know, and often commiserate over), as well as submissive and effeminate men, often preferring the unapologetic "macho" type to the point of sometimes falling hard for "bad boys" who then cause them all manner of grief. And yet, they love their gay hairdressers, make up artists, and fashion gurus, hang onto their every word, and sometimes even have them as BFF's and shopping companions.

As a Toronto resident, I am sure that you are familiar with the daytime CityLine and Marilyn Denis Shows that are aimed at women and focus on current fashion trends, cuisine, home decorating, renovation projects, entertaining tips and relationship advice etc., etc. You can almost smell the estrogen oozing from the television screen when watching those shows.

Not coincidentally, many of the fashion, make up and hairstyling experts appearing on these shows are also openly gay men and they do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to dramatic makeovers performed on grateful audience members. Their female subjects and the other women audience members just lap it all up and relate to them as if they were just "one of the girls". As for the poor "straight" husbands and SO's that they sometimes drag along to accompany them to these shows, the looks of bewilderment that often appear on their faces when witnessing this dynamic are truly priceless.

Quite a contrast to the way that these women would likely relate to us as crossdressers, and frankly, I'm jealous...