Am I mistaken?

[TG-Taru]

So evidently some here are saying that the reason they strive to "pass" as a woman when out in public is to avoid trouble and confrontations with the general public Muggles.I understand that in principle but if you're that afraid why even go out? I much better like the idea as some have expressed that they are simply being the "best that they can be" when out en femme, "passing" notwithstanding. That is a better moderate approach in my opinion.

Evidently my last sentence? I don't disagree, and might have put it better, not said it, and so on. And it's not what I was saying. I'm cursed with trying to be thorough and saying too much or stating the obvious, perhaps making it sound more than it is, or overly complicated. So to clarify, "I never said that!". If it was referring to something else (as well), didn't catch my eye but maybe reading too much to it?

So, No No No, that is Not THE reason, merely a side note and A reason to try not to be in-your-face obvious when you (I) can do better, and not ask trouble from any inclined to give it. Like I said I like to look my best, and - yes - being if not my best, the best I can bother being, as myself, to feel as good as I can about myself. Not that I really need to pass that much for the general public - I'm not that close to the ts side of the spectrum - or am scared not to, it's just nicer, for me, to have that too, to the extent that it happens. I, too, do prefer to pass as a woman, but the main reason is because it feels better, me being more of a middle-ground tg than cd.

Avoiding trouble and unrest - obvious if you don't like fighting, needn't be said. This is a sensible wish, not the goal and main focus. The trouble can be a salesclerk giving you a disapproving look while otherwise doing their work. Unrest can be noisy kids being a nuisance to everyone because they saw something they don't notice every day. Not something to be really afraid of or stay home over, probably won't even happen, just saying it's nicer if it really doesn't - thus "prefer", not "required to dare set foot out". Then there's that tiny possibility that's less than slipping in the shower (well, depending on where you are) of something more serious, also better avoided. "Passing" meaning passing without incident, not "passing as a woman (at closer look)" (though I'd prefer that too). For this sort of "passing", like Wildaboutheels pointed out, good, normal, sane behavior mostly does the trick, whatever you pass as based on looks.

[CynthiaD]

I always go all the way when out of the house, because I want to be perceived as a woman. (That's how I perceive myself.) When I dress at home I usually do the same thing, but for a different reason. If I do the "man in a dress" thing at home, the female members of my family react negatively to it, I think because they see it as being disrespectful to femininity. Making the effort to seem completely feminine seems to go over much better.

[AllieSF]

I disagree with your statement. The majority here are too afraid or have other reasons as to why they cannot wear what they want to wear when going out. There is no law against someone wearing the clothes of the opposite gender, at least not in the US. I do it all the time and do NOT have any problems. It is mostly in peoples' minds and they let that inner fear prevent them from doing what they insinuate that they cannot do. I can't remember the last thread here where someone stated that they went out and had a terrible time. I will state that the majority of us that do go out, no matter how completely dressed as the opposite gender, have little or only rare and minor issues when out. What does that tell you? That we all live in a wonderful safe haven for us gender benders like San Francisco, or that the big fears of most are not real?

Now why is passing important? Do you play golf, tennis, or football, both versions? Most people strive to be better, maybe even the best that they can be. It is not mandatory to be or do our best, but it does naturally come with whatever endeavor that we are interested in. So, trying to pass/blend is a natural progression for many who crossdress. Is passing the best? Not for everyone, but for many yes, that is their target. Since only the rare few truly pass, as in being mistaken for a woman for the MtF CD, blending in is where we aim. For me anyway, the more I blend the better I am received and the more fun I can have, and I do always have fun. That is my need and goal. For others just being out there as a gender bender and being recognized as such is their goal. All that is fine with me. Whatever floats one's boat.

I think one reason a lot want to pass/blend in is too avoid the opposite, that is to stand out and be easily noticed, and to avoid any perceived problems arising from that. They are not worried about scaring anyone. To hide their identity is a very valid reason because some people will still not accept our existence and right to be out as ourselves. Some people have and could lose their job, their SO, family and friends by being found out.

Now, if one does not want to pass or blend, that is more than OK for me. Since I am in a way role playing when dressed en femme I definitely try to do it well.

Kate: Can you please explain what you mean by this? "Many seem to be making unspoken statements by virtue of tucking, taping for cleavage, talking in a high pitched voice and the like." I think that I am missing whatever point your are trying to make. Thanks

[Kate Simmons]

Allie, The only thing I meant by what I said about tucking, taping and speaking in falsetto was that by tucking we are hiding something to pretend we don't have it, by taping we are pretending we have something we don't and by falsetto we are not speaking in our natural voice. Doing all of this simultaneously for hours at a time has to make some very uncomfortable. I personally don't do any of that stuff when dressed but then again I'm not pretending to be a woman just dressing like one. Especially if we are attractive naturally doing one or more of those things would tend to attract men to us , an attraction which many of us say we don't really want, so then why do it? I can have just as much fun with my dressing without doing it. That whole concept is a conundrum to me to fathom but then I'm kind of cursed with being pragmatic even when I dress up.

[AllieSF]

Thanks Kate that helps clarify it. Reading your words here, what about wearing a bra, hose on a hot day, a wig also on a hot day. They can all be uncomfortable. So tucking or wearing nylons can help with the end product and presentation. So, if one is interested in a good close to real female presentation then they may strive to do all these things if they deem them necessary, discomfort or not, all for the final effect. Again, those that don't want or need to do those things, good for them. Both are having, or hopefully they are having fun on their own terms, not necessarily someone else's.

[Kate Simmons]

That's pretty much the way I see it Allie. What they can or cannot see isn't going to hurt them. I learned that from women.

[Marcelle]

Hi Kate,

I was thinking about this most of the day at work as it struck a cord regarding questions I get from people . . . particularly "Why?" Why go through the trouble of make-up, clothes, mannerisms, voice (I don't using padding) and tucking if you know you don't pass? I guess the questions back is why dress at all? If you can get in touch with what you consider your feminine side why not just stay in dude mode and express your girl side? For me it is about the whole experience and while I know some here are fine with being a guy in a dress, it is not who I am when I am expressing Isha. She expresses herself as girl the same way I put on a uniform, tactical body armor and gear when I express myself in part of my day job. Am I afraid of confrontation? Not really. I am pretty sure if push came to shove Isha could handle herself. For me it just makes the experience more enjoyable. However, in the end, if I could answer "why dress" then I would open shop and explain all the mysteries of the TG to CDs . . . however that is never going to happen


Hugs

Isha

[Kate Simmons]

Karren always says she does it because she is driven to. I guess the simplest answer is that we do it because it is in our nature and part of who we are. Only the individual degrees may vary by person.

[Thea Pauline]

This mostly rings true for me as well. I am into my second year with hormone adjustments and at this point, it's somewhat of an 'auto-tuck'. While I think the TG spectrum can accommodate CD and TS, perhaps one of the differences could be addressed with a 'need to want' scale. A CD may want to live as a woman, a TS needs to live as a woman. In my case, once I had accepted being TS, the feminine came out when I took off the fabricated masculine overlay. I personally didn't have to act or dress as a woman, I just stopped acting like a man because it was and is not important to me.

That being said, I absolutely think any human should be able to express themselves with any clothing (or not), color, fabric; whatever they choose. They must simply be willing to address any conflict they experience with their culture or society.

[DebbieL]

Lately there has been a group added to LGBT to make it LGBTQ - the Q standing for "Queer" or "GenderQueer".

I've known a few boys who were genderqueer in the 1970s. Saturday Night Fever and John Trivolta with his Quana shirt and skin tight pants was a good example.

In his writings Harry Benjamin suggested that Transgender was a spectrum. He offered a scale of 1 to 6 - with a Type zero being someone who would be entirely and strictly cis-gender and would rather die than wear or do anything transgender, and a type 6 is likely to injure themselves or even kill themselves if forced to live in their birth-gender.

For simplicity I'll discuss these in terms of MtF transgender levels.
Between these, we have a wide range.
Type one would be "fetish dressers". They often wear only one or two feminine items, often for sexual pleasure only, and when they are satisfied, they can't wait to get back to their cis-gender state.
Type two would be "closet cross-dressers" - They often want to make an effort to dress and look like the opposite sex, but usually only in private, only for short periods of time, and often not making major changes.
Type three would be "public cross-dressers" - They often want to "pass" or "present" as women - but their primary concern in doing so is to avoid ugly confrontations with others. Again, this is usually for short periods.
Type four would be "Part Timers" - these people identify more with the opposite of their birth gender. They want to be able to be feminine, and often try hard to pass. They also like to go "en femme" often, and for longer periods of time. Often, they have close relationships with others, including partners, mistresses, or wives who support and even encourage them.
Type five would be "Wannabes" - these people have the desire to transition, but are willing and able to function in their birth gender when necessary. Often, they will request transition, but will plan their transition more carefully.
Type six would be the "Gottabes" - these people cannot be happy unless they transition. Many type sixes have tried to castrate themselves, have tried to mutilate or damage their "boy parts" to keep them from "making their poison". Often, puberty is like turning into a horrid monster. As children, the boys often suffer frequent attacks by cis-gender boys who sense their weakness and try to exploit it. Many type six transsexuals will attempt suicide more than once during puberty and often more covertly as they grow older.

There is some fluidity across the various types. A type two could revert back to type one or advance to type three, but a type 6 could never be "programmed" to be a type zero and a type zero could never be "programmed" to be a type 6. Even fictional works usually depict those subjected to forced feminization as more like type three. Often, there will be references to how they were feminine as children, their primary concern is the reactions of others, especially other boys, and they often find the first experiences of femininity to be pleasurable or arousing.

Short and simple version - If you like wearing a dress at home, and you don't feel like wearing the make-up, wig, and heels, then have a great time, you're probably a type 2 - closet cross-dresser.
If you begin to feel the urge to go out in public - or you suddenly find yourself in love with a partner who wants you to go out in public, you will suddenly develop a keen interest in managing presentation including wigs, make-up, proper and appropriate styles, and giving up some comfort for the security of knowing that you won't have to worry about being attacked by a bunch of homophobic religious fanatics.

Often, even we ourselves don't know where on the scale we are. Even though I knew in my heart I was type 6, I usually pretended to be a type 2 because my (now ex) wife could not accept much more than a little dress-up in the bedroom. On the other hand, if I had been given the option of dating a woman who wanted me "in the bedroom only" or "All day every day" - there probably wouldn't be a year in my life that I wouldn't have jumped for the full-time option.

Many of us appear to be lower on the spectrum than we really are because there is so much force to be gender-conformant. This is especially true for MtFs. A trans-boy is often referred to as a "Tom-boy" and is often accepted because she->he wants to be good at sports, isn't afraid to fight, and is often more aggressive. Even in teens and twenties they are often more sexually agressive and more "masculine" - even when they try to dress the way they know boys like. A trans-girl is often referred to as a "Sissy" and is often attacked violently by 10-12 boys simultaneously. They are often assaulted more than daily (2-3 times a day is common), and they are often sexually assaulted my homosexual predators. They find very little social support and in many cases are viewed as "perverts" for wanting to play with the girls. Such conditioning will often result in an outward compliance - but they are in fact "living in stealth" - a bit like a spy or Clark Kent. They view their male persona as a disguise to protect their true identity as "Wonder Woman".

If you have not had the "Sissy" conditioning, the violent attacks, and the post traumatic stress syndrome associated with it, then you are lucky. You might even be confident enough to go out as "genderqueer" wearing your pink satin dress and your full beard and balding hair, with or without shaving your legs. If you are truly a type 1 or type 2, then anyone who gave you trouble or harassed you would be met with a forceful and potentially violent reaction on your part. I've even seen this behavior in some drag queens.

It's worth noting that some of the most feared warriors are guys who wear skirts. The Scotch Dragoons in their kilts were so feared by the Germans during both world wars that the generals would often use their pipes to thin the German lines before going "over the top". Whirling Dervish earns the right to wear his skirt by being cut by all of the male members of his clan. Often hundreds of cuts are inflicted. When the dance is over, the scars are a permanent warning that the man wearing the skirt is not someone you want to fight with. The military form of Aikido is Aiki Jitsu, and the practitioners wear skirts. Unlike Aikido, which is a study form, for learning physical and spiritual discipline, Aiki Jitsu is deadly and painful. A master can dislocate shoulders, knees, elbows, and numerous other joints in just a few moves. The opponent is unable to move and in agony - in battle, he would beg someone to kill him and put him out of his misery. In each of these cases, wearing the skirt as initially something a new student might consider something shameful - but by the time they have earned the right to wear the skirt in public, no one who understands the nature of the man in the skirt would dare to mock him for wearing it. Confronting a man in a skirt in battle is terrifying because he is trained to completely disable his opponent, leaving him in he maximum possible amount of pain, while not inflicting any lethal cuts or blows. The skirt warrior is a terrorist weapon, giving enemy soldiers nightmares of women who can cause so much horrible pain and suffering and laugh about it while they are doing it.

[Nyla F]

I'm all for fashion freedom for men! I would probably experiment in that area, rather than fully crossdress in public, except that this is a boundary that would distress my wife if crossed.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm sorry, Kate. But, I agree COMPLETELY with the first part your original post. "If u can't pass, why even go out dressed then?"

First, passing is the Gold Standard in dressing. If you've never done it? U can't imagine how different it feels. How different people treat u. If they think u r a female. The difference is nite and day from going out and being tolerated, accepted, or going unnoticed as a CD. I've only managed to pass a couple times at vanilla venues on Halloween. The rush was indescribable!

Every other day of the year I have zero chance of passing. And, since I dress for ME, not for muggles? I like your advice, Kate. "Dress at home and in private." If it wasn't that I enjoyed going out with other dressers? I'd probably never go out dressed again! Not all of us need that!

[susmitha]

In my opinion, you must "pass" in case you are planning for outings en femme. Others may hold different views.

[Princess Chantal]

I've been going out in public for the majority of my crossdressing life, displaying various appearances from a blending-in looks (capris, jeans, shorts, flats and skirts) to dressy looks (dresses, business suits, fancy heels) to "overtly" sexy looks (the oh lala a lot of legs showing) to costumes (victorian dresses and other looks from yesteryears). Jeez I even went into a busy major department store wearing a fancy gown, wasn't my intention but was an emergency last minute stop before going to a fancy event.
I garnished attention in no matter what I wore, however the only negative in-my-face confrontations I experienced seemed to be when I didn't wear a skirt! Perhaps the individuals that stepped into my personal space to confront me felt as if I am dressing to fool people (you know try to pull one over their eyes) instead of enjoying the crossdressing experience. They probably felt the need to put me in my place and break me down. The picture I attached is how I appeared during one of the outings in which I was confronted.

[noeleena]

Hi,

So...... if you cant pass then why even go out dressed then,

Does this then apply to females , women or my self , thats pretty broad , okay i know you well enough to know who it revers to,

Some of us who are female by default dont have a say in how we look or as you know ill say ....Dont look....

I agree with you i feel that way and when i go to our Balls Scottish , you know its really worse than being a wall flower, at the least the wall flower was a girl , in its meaning .

i still have a life to live i still need to do things in our communitys , and be part of whats going on , do i really wont to go do i really wont to be a part of our communitys , or does it have more to do with others wont me to they wont me there and to take part in what we do ,

Why the hell would they put me on thier commitees , i mean think about it , am i not a spectcale enough now as it is with out being in front of people all the time ,

And lets face it is every woman a beauty to behold or as men see us , we dont all have that feminine look about us ,

So what makes a beautifull woman - female her looks alone or is there an underlieing something about us that surpasses our looks over rides what we do or not look like,

Theres far more to us than just how we look.

...noeleena...

[Krisi]

In our society, women may wear dresses but a man who wears a dress is looked on as "odd" at best. That's how it is and you can't change it. We all have our own reasons for crossdressing and we have our own reasons for going out in public dressed.

Me, I dress to look like the woman I would be if I had been born a female. When I go out in public I want to be viewed as that person so I make every attempt to pass.

[Lynn Marie]

"Passing" has never been a big priority with me or with most of my CD girlfriends. There's just no adventure in going out dressed and attracting no attention! I can do that all day long in boy mode. For me going to the mall or Walmart in a dress is far more hassle than it's worth. Actually, I avoid both those places dressed or not.

[devida]

I get the impression that the majority on this forum think that only women can wear dresses. It seems that in order to go out in the world passing is a must. This says to me that you must be a woman, look like a woman and act like a woman when in female clothes. To be a crossdresser surely one has to be a male in female clothes, or vice versa, so why is passing so important? Is it to hide one's identity or not to scare the population?

I expect you are right about the majority of people on this forum, but there is a minority, most of whom don't post much, who are non binary for whom passing as a woman is about as desirable and appropriate as passing as a man. I prefer women's clothes, I prefer to wear make-up when I'm out but I am usually dressed in some men's clothes even though most of my clothes are women's. I'm not presenting or trying to pass as a woman. I am presenting as my own unique and happy place on the gender spectrum. I certainly don't fit anywhere on Harry Benjamin's six stages. I don't feel like I'm in some kind of transition. I do experience gender dysphoria if I dress all male, so I don't.

This forum, despite my not being able to identify with most cross dressers, is still useful to me, if only because I learn about how other people negotiate their place on the transgender spectrum. I certainly discovered that compared to the majority I am not really a cross dresser. But I also discovered many common interests and characteristics I have with other transgendered people. The feeling of wanting to present, if only for a time, as a gender other than that assigned at birth is also pretty universal among transgendered people whether they are hetero-normative cross dressers, mtf or ftm transexuals, or non binary folk like me. But if I were to assume based on the majority of posts that these posts amounted to some kind of Cross Dressers or Transgender Manual I would feel invisible and very much isolated and alone. Fortunately neither the Manual nor a Transgender Hive Mind exist. The forum is just people with individual quirks and opinions some of which are more commonly held than others, and everybody is just making it all up as they go along. What else could we do? It's not as if there are too many children being raised transgender even now and on these boards I think I've only read one person who was raised female although (incorrectly) assigned male at birth.

So, no, in answer to the OP I don't act female in women's clothes but I don't think I act male really. Like a few others who have answered this thread I really don't care what gender other people think I am although I think their attempt to place me in one or the other binaries is often quite funny and I appreciate their effort. I don't waste much time trying to establish the gender of other people. I'm not that interested. Judging from the comments of people on this forum who do go out dressed en femme it doesn't really seem that most people are that interested in the whole topic anyway. Most people seem quite happy to go along with dealing with people as people, at least when it comes to gender presentation. Of course we need to be safe and aware but we need to be that however we dress.

[Samantha Clark]

"Transgender Hive Mind" made me snort my coffee!!

Seriously, though, thank you for this. While I don't think that we are on the same point of the spectrum of TG, I appreciate your reminder that embracing nonconformity needs to be the underlying theme in all of our lives. I do agree with your perspective in that I, too, feel sometimes alienated from the seemingly overwhelming emphasis on "passing." I just want to be able to express this feminine aspect of my person and, having been repressed for so long, sometimes that comes across as wanting to be the most feminine I can be. Whether that passes or not is not my objective.

{snip}

This forum, despite my not being able to identify with most cross dressers, is still useful to me, if only because I learn about how other people negotiate their place on the transgender spectrum. I certainly discovered that compared to the majority I am not really a cross dresser. But I also discovered many common interests and characteristics I have with other transgendered people. The feeling of wanting to present, if only for a time, as a gender other than that assigned at birth is also pretty universal among transgendered people whether they are hetero-normative cross dressers, mtf or ftm transexuals, or non binary folk like me. But if I were to assume based on the majority of posts that these posts amounted to some kind of Cross Dressers or Transgender Manual I would feel invisible and very much isolated and alone. Fortunately neither the Manual nor a Transgender Hive Mind exist. The forum is just people with individual quirks and opinions some of which are more commonly held than others, and everybody is just making it all up as they go along. What else could we do? It's not as if there are too many children being raised transgender even now and on these boards I think I've only read one person who was raised female although (incorrectly) assigned male at birth.
{snip}

[kimdl93]

Not sure where you got that impression.

[Alice Torn]

Kate Haylette, Thanks for sharing so much. It is tougher in a redneck area! The only times i have been out, in the nine years I have completely dressed, i was pointed at, laughed at, shouted from a car, a few car horns, but because of my six foot six height, and huge feet and hands, and male brow and chin, and Adam's apple, I can not pass , unless from quite a ways away. Within 150 feet, little chance. I still have a terrible time with fear, and terror. I suffer an emotional disorder, too, that makes it worse. I had hoped this summer to got to a number of classical concerts in a park 40 miles from here, but i let fear, then lack of gas money, then lots of car problems shut me down and out. Still in the closet, but still hoping an occasional outing. I need Kate Simmons lack of fear. Once i am out in the car, i know i will do better, like years ago. I am very tall, and even in low heels stick out like a scarecrow. Good for basketball, but not a guy dressin up as a lady.

[MelanieAnne]

Hmmmm. I definitely don't want to just be a dude in a dress (even if that's what I am). The goal is to appear as pretty as possible, and to feel as feminine as possible, as much as that is possible. For me, that entails a great deal of work, which I happen to enjoy. The effort is required to honour and pay tribute to the feminine form...

Good answer. I don't feel everyone has to pass. But if you are going out in public en fem, put a little effort in it, and don't embarrass us by looking like one of the Budweiser Boys. I'd rather have people think "that might be a guy, but he/she looks pretty good". Than have people thinking I look like a dude in a dress. If we are ever going to achieve any kind of acceptance of crossdressing, then we should look our best when out in public, and not be pushing the limits everywhere we go.

[Crista]

It's funny, as soon as I put on my nails, my hands act more feminine and as soon as I put on heels, my walk becomes feminine.
It just happens, there's zero concentrated effort involved.

[Kris Avery]

But I WANT to wear a dress, not because it will make me be viewed as feminine but because it makes me FEEL feminine. To me that is the whole objective.

Having tried on a wig for the first time yesterday - I found that after much introspection - this must be the case.
I like to feel feminine and the wig may help in that aspect.

It will NOT help me pass - ever. I'm all girl from the neck down but (ouch) from the neck up. The wig is no help.

[Katey888]

What a fascinating discussion this is... and will be again - but a couple things already said here struck a chord with me:

I think one reason a lot want to pass/blend in is too avoid the opposite, that is to stand out and be easily noticed, and to avoid any perceived problems arising from that. They are not worried about scaring anyone. To hide their identity is a very valid reason because some people will still not accept our existence and right to be out as ourselves. Some people have and could lose their job, their SO, family and friends by being found out.

I want to go out - but I don't want to attract attention... but I do want to interact... A bit of a conundrum unless one is able to do this in a 'safe' venue, which I know many of us start in... But Allie's perspective is right for me - I am trying to fool people, but only for the purpose of keeping beneath their radar... What I struggle to grapple with is why we have such differing ways of doing it.. Why it is necessary that some of us are able to satisfy the need purely by a modest amount of gender-blending but others need more...? And then I read this...

But if I were to assume based on the majority of posts that these posts amounted to some kind of Cross Dressers or Transgender Manual I would feel invisible and very much isolated and alone. Fortunately neither the Manual nor a Transgender Hive Mind exist. The forum is just people with individual quirks and opinions some of which are more commonly held than others, and everybody is just making it all up as they go along. What else could we do?

I think some here would like there to be a CD Thought-Police - but Devida's point here is bang on for the forum... While we might be one of the broader representations of CD/TG-types on the web, we are not authoritative, still just representative - and we are just a bunch of individuals with opinions and a platform to air them (or sometimes perhaps to 'err' them.. ) I think a lot of the diversity is no more than an expression of who we are and what makes us tick as indviduals - what we like as fashion; how we feel comfortable dressing; where we go and what we do are all unique... there just happen to be clusters of commonality that bring some folk together... but we're all outliers in the muggle world...

And anyway, I'm off dresses until autumn...

Katey x