What happens when we are all of a sudden not special anymore?

[Sejd]

I am currently working on an article about Trans Gender people. Mostly M/F. This journey I have been on has touched me deeply and my writings helps me understand my own gender preference. Looking at nature and different cultures around the world it is clear that Trans Gender choice or let's just say men preferring to present themselves as female is maybe rare, but a very natural expression. Something which repeats itself as a pattern in nature we would not call abnormal. When cultures all over the planet are composed of males, females, gays, lesbians and everything in between on a consistent level, then it is no longer abnormal. Just because we in the western culture have come up with words like Gender Identity Disorder or Dysphoria then it doesn't change the fact that cultures outside of the west have long solved this problem. In fact, it isn't even a problem in those cultures. I also find it interesting that in the cultures where different gender representations are accepted, there is no talk about gender reassignment surgeries. In our culture there is. I wonder if we had a more natural and accepted place in society we would still go to such drastic changes of our selves. It is wishful thinking I know, and I understand completely why we are where we are. Gender is truly what we express, and our sex is what we are born with. I wonder if it will ever be accepted that we are who we are, not that we are not unique in ourselves, but that our gender choice is really not that special. Here is a quote that I really cherish:
One of our 'Wicasa Wakan.' or Medicine Men of today, John Lame Deer, says in his book, Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions:
’winkte' are men who dress like women, look like women and act like women. They do so by their own choice or in obedience to a dream. They are not like other men, but 'Wakan Tanka', the Great Spirit, made them 'winktes' and we accept them as such. To us a man is what nature, or his dreams, make him.

[Jorja]

What happens when we are all of a sudden not special anymore? Honey, I've been special all of my life (with or without my gender problems) and I will continue to be special (even if it is only to myself) until my death. Nobody can take anything away from you unless you allow them too.

[Rachael Leigh]

I read an interesting article the other day that those who choose to go the transition route that there is not a lower rate of suiecide as was thought when they don't have a chance to go that route.
What I thought was interesting as you point out we are male and female and in reality that can't change other than with chemical help. So what if we just expressed ourselves as we want and choose and would this change.

[PaulaAnn]

We are all special in our own unique ways.It's what defines us and makes us human.
PaulaAnn

[Kaitlyn Michele]

A man that chooses to present himself as a woman because that is his gender preference is called a crossdresser.

I didn't choose my gender, I didn't choose anything. My preference frankly would have been to stay/present/live as a male.

I wonder if those people (assuming they were transsexuals) you are talking about would have taken advantage of the miracles of modern medicine...
Why do you think that because there was no word for GID then that they did not suffer??

its true that 100,200,500++ years ago what could a transsexual do ?? i'd say she would do her best, and i'll take the lot of a ts woman today over any other time regardless of perceived cultural benefits many years ago..

Just because a leader says its ok doesn't make it ok to all people..i bet some Indians beat the crap out of their trannies too..

[LeaP]

Sejd, you are conflating a lot of radically different social issues and medical conditions. Lumping them together under the general concepts of preference and expression in the ways you have is incredibly invalidating to those who have congruence needs, versus those who have, say, expression issues. You all but say that the drive toward congruence (via surgery) is artificial.

But that's what happens with overly inclusive umbrellas and such. Real distinctions are lost. And where are they lost most often? In the smallest subsets of the combined "community." Guess who that is? It's not the drag performers, crossdressers, gay people and gender queer, I'll tell you that.

You gloss over things medically, culturally, and historically. Historically, there wasn't a clamor for surgery because it didn't exist! There still isn't in many places because people don't have access to it, either because the doctors don't exist or there are insufficient economic means anyway. Moreover there are any number of cultural examples where primitive gender "surgeries" have been performed. (More self-mutilations, really.) These go back into antiquity.

That's not to say there is no truth in your OP. Greater freedom of expression would indeed address the needs of the many. The notion that the strength of the binary in Western culture driving some to binary extremes who don't need to go there is an interesting topic. But even accepting that as true for discussion's sake, it doesn't change the fact that there is a population whose identity is actually and irrevocably binary and whose congruence needs are real and urgent. You have dismissed them with a wave of your metaphorical pen.

[edit]

Answering the question in the thread title directly, what happens is that people suffer. Acknowledging that both the brilliant as well as the challenged need a level of mainstreaming, were their special needs not also addressed, they would never reach their potential. A loss all around.

[Rianna Humble]

I am currently working on an article about Trans Gender people. Mostly M/F. This journey I have been on has touched me deeply and my writings helps me understand my own gender preference.

I'm glad that you research has helped you to understand your gender preference. In comon with many (if not all) transsexuals, that will be of no use to me as I don't have a gender preference, but I do have a gender identity which is at odds with my assigned sex at birth.

Looking at nature and different cultures around the world it is clear that Trans Gender choice or let's just say men preferring to present themselves as female is maybe rare, but a very natural expression.

But what does this have to do with transsexuals?

Just because we in the western culture have come up with words like Gender Identity Disorder or Dysphoria then it doesn't change the fact that cultures outside of the west have long solved this problem.

No, other cultures have not "long solved" the problem suffered by transsexuals whether you wish to use the medical definition of that problem or not. Failing to name a problem does not solve it.

[Brianna_H]

Great discussion, though I agree with Lea that there's a lot of over-generalizing happening. Also, I think the title is misleading. You're not really asking, What happens when we're not special anymore?" You're asking, "What would it be like if our gender issues were no longer a problem for the society at large?"

Well, that would be great. I don't think it would limit the variety of responses and conditions, it would make them easier for everyone to face and deal with. As Lea points out, there will be and probably always have been people who really NEED to have the body that fits their internal gender.

It would be great if society were more accepting. Imagine the sexual liberty of San Francisco writ large across the united states. Is there a downside? I can't see one. People allowed to serve their country freely, marry whom they choose, transition, and/or dress how they like without fear of ridicule beyond fashion critiques.

I'm sure if we dig down deep into any culture's practices we'll find social chains to enforce gender roles (even if they are not limited to two roles) and crazy, hateful-seeming superstitions. But it's still worthwhile to note that things haven't always been the way they are now, in the "civilized west."

FWIW, things will be very different in a hundred years. I can certainly imagine a more transgender friendly West. Each generation is pushing the boundaries out further. Reading newer voices in the TG community, there is even a shift happening in how younger TG people view themselves.

Anyway, I'm glad to see this discussion. The hateful and shaming behavior so many of us experience is NOT an immutable part of human nature. Trans-phobia is less natural than being trans. Hate is learned. It can be un-learned, even by an entire culture.

[arbon]

I doubt there are really any cultures that truly accept transgender people as normal. Do you know of one specifically that does? Its not in India, Pakistan, Africa, the Middle East. Some places in Asia maybe, but even in Thailand I bet its still not considered normal - how many there have real normal jobs? In those cultures that do have larger populations Transgender people living openly there is still a load of prejudice and stigma against them. They are usually still frowned upon and at best are tolerated by the majority.

[Brianna_H]

I think what the OP is talking about is cultures that actually have a 3rd gender or other social position for people of a different persuasion, like the Mahu in Hawaiian culture. The link has other examples.

Again, this doesn't address the needs of transsexuals. But I think it does force us to realize that things don't HAVE to be the way they are now. There is a huge variation in human morals and roles throughout time. It's possible for our culture to get more open and accepting.

Edited to Add:
This article has more detail about how society relates to the 3rd gender. I note that none of these cultural roles apply to women. Typical. I'm sure there is a lot that is unknown, repressed, or ignored regarding the gender and sexual identities of women.

[ArleneRaquel]

I have always been very special and since I have been "Arlene" I am super special.

[Sejd]

Interesting responses. If anyone felt upset I can only say that was never my intention. I think it is great for those who has figured it all out. More power to you. Personally it has been a life long journey and I'm still scratching my head and researching all the literature I find. Thanks for all who took time to read it :0)
Sejd

[Kris Avery]

I'd like to add that I do feel special, and agree with others that no one can take that away...unless you let them.

Personally, I see myself as a long time CD with a strong desire to modify my body to be less of an ape and more feminine. Lost 160 lbs, shaved all my body, and kept it up over many years. Recently I have waxed eyebrows but sadly I have Neanderthal brow ridges and a big long nose...so unless I want to be a witch....yeah, you get the point..

I'm not sure that makes me a TS BUT I know that I'm all female inside a male body - but I am happy enough that I'd not make plumbing changes ... No matter what else I change in my outward appearance. It's funny.. my SO constantly says I'm more of a girl than she is. She is on the forum as a GG but doesn't post much. I guess it's ackward for her. Must be too much of a guy.

I would like to learn more about the differences between TG and TS but it is varied and complex in each person and no matter how many posts I see or books I read...the answer is not revealed to me.

Also some are in a position to not be able to make changes in their outward expression .. Even if they want to based on what they have going on in their life. I have a special needs nearly adult child that I have to care for as long as I can and not threatening my employment is required; since I can't dream of replacing my income in my current location.

Very interesting reading.

[Kathryn Martin]

I wonder if we had a more natural and accepted place in society we would still go to such drastic changes of our selves.

For a transsexed person that is a completely irrelevant question, just saying.

[Frances]

Just because we in the western culture have come up with words like Gender Identity Disorder or Dysphoria then it doesn't change the fact that cultures outside of the west have long solved this problem. In fact, it isn't even a problem in those cultures. I also find it interesting that in the cultures where different gender representations are accepted, there is no talk about gender reassignment surgeries. In our culture there is. I wonder if we had a more natural and accepted place in society we would still go to such drastic changes of our selves.

Can you be more specific here? What are those cultures that you oppose to yours, and where different gender representations are accepted?

[noeleena]

Hi,

I would not say at all im special and nore would i wont to be , different oh yes , people can and do accept difference , i,v proved that many times just the mere fact of being so involved with so many people and they wont me to be around them ,

Do they see that im different or do they look past that miner detail , what if and when others ask them meaning myself who,s that or whats going on , or do they just accept, okay different and she,s .....your..... friend , do they say you mean noeleena,, oh her she,s good, she,s one of us,

Give people credit they know whats what , when i talk with strangers they dont walk away ,

I know i dont / wont give myself much credit , im a nothing ,yet i,v been given so much and it revolves around people ,

I know where iv come from where i,v been and the trip is still going and you know its about acceptance, and how much each is given can depend on you,

...noeleena...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Just because people question or reject your idea doesn't mean they are upset... that's a classic reaction to having really no answer



you said basically that transsexuals transition and/or have surgery to make themselves feel special and that if society accepted them they wouldn't have to do such things

You called gender a Preference which is an insane concept for transsexuals ..not one transsexual understands their nature as a preference...not one..

You project a 3rd gender lifestyle on to transsexuals with concepts created by medicine men for crying out loud...

You are talking about men, but transsexuals are women...if you are a man, you are not ts (unless you are ftm obviously)

You say you are questing for knowledge, I don't see any meaningful knowledge in these concepts.

[becky77]

I've read this a few times and I'm a little perplexed by it.
It's also odd to see the words choice and preference used so loosely.
I can't help feel this has absolutely no relevance to me.
I certainly don't have a 'gender preference', otherwise I would 'prefer' to be happy as a man as that's way easier.
Problem is I'm not a man, hence why my life has been so mentally
challenging. I don't therefore see myself as a man that prefers to dress as a woman, I see myself as a woman that has had to struggle being a man till I finally gave up as a failure.
We all have a choice but choice is such an inadequate word to describe the monumental decision to transition, a decision that felt more like survival than 'choice' to me.

If I was a Crossdresser or Tgirl or she-mal etc etc then this would make good reading. But I can't see anyone that is truly TS and by TS I mean a woman born into a man's body, finding this particularly helpful?

Also, how have other cultures solved the problem?
I would rather say condition than problem, but that's me being petty.

Would be nice if you could explain your meaning of special?
I've heard it said 'We are special' or 'It's a gift'. Never heard it said by a TS though.

[kimdl93]

It occurs to me that for millennia, people like me had few choices in most cultures. One was to accept the winkte role, if the culture allowed it. The other was well, suffer through it. Now, here is a third option for those with the will and the resources.

[LeaP]

...
One of our 'Wicasa Wakan.' or Medicine Men of today, John Lame Deer, says in his book, Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions:
’winkte' are men who dress like women, look like women and act like women. They do so by their own choice or in obedience to a dream. They are not like other men, but 'Wakan Tanka', the Great Spirit, made them 'winktes' and we accept them as such. To us a man is what nature, or his dreams, make him.

I can't read this without thinking that at least some of these people would be saying to themselves "sort of ... except that I'm not a man…" But apparently that's okay because, after all, that society has found a convenient place to park and confine them. Much like other kinds of segregation, the descriptive language is that of the majority and the purported benefits to those who are different touted.

If you walk away from the Noble Native American BS for a second, what you get is that a trans woman is a man, not a woman. And that she lives as a woman by choice. Moreover, God did it!

This sounds suspiciously familiar and up-to-date! It should – it's exactly the same view of the majority today in Western culture. That there has been some sort of accommodation is interesting, but the fundamentals are no different.

[Kathryn Martin]

I also find it interesting that in the cultures where different gender representations are accepted, there is no talk about gender reassignment surgeries.

Wow that is one tall claim. Those that are transsexed will always talk about procedures that allow them to be as congruent as possible. You are confusing "winkte", "two spirited", and whatever the name equivalent in other cultures is with something that is not any of that.

I don't think social and cultural acceptance would do anything to relieve distress of a transsexed person. That is why it is not relevant.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Tall tales of ancient cultures where the 3rd sex sits smiling atop mount androgyne....

Its the umpteenth way to disbelieve us.

Somebody can come here and say this is a "gender preference", and that culture is to blame for our distress,
and then when the protests from actual transsexuals happen, they find that our protests are "interesting".... ugh

its a highlight of how fundamentally misunderstood we can be even with people that think they are just like us...
only a person that has no clue what I am would make the statements in the OP if they are supposed to relate to me.

and before I get jumped on, trust me I get it, its a lonely feeling...
but I am not about pretending somebody understands me as a person to feel less alone in it..