I thought I could stop

[susangirl]

I haven't dressed since last Feb because I was feeling my wife might catch me. She never has liked me shaving my body in the winter months. I hardly ever dress in town but I made a mistake a left one stocking in my SUV in the back seat. I told her the truth I like wearing them. Didn't go over very well. The next chance I had every thing was gone. I felt OK with it.

I just spent $300 in Rochester, NY (out of town) on the basics and am sitting at the bar at TGI Fridays. The $300 I spent makes me feel like a $1,000,000 even though one of the bar tenders just said he was going to get you guys some utensils. I feel very relaxed and pretty tonight. Watching Monday night football with no other girls at the bar but all is fine.

[mechamoose]

If 'she' is part of you, you can't hide her no matter how many power tools you buy or trucks you drive.She is part of you, and you can't shed her any more than you could your skin.

Just sayin'

<3

- MM

[susangirl]

What would you say is the percentage of wife's and girl friend that know about our dressing.

[mechamoose]

No clue honey. I'm an outlier here. I'm a guy in a skirt with a wife who loves it.

I'm sure that our other sisters here will try and answer this for you.

<3

- MM

[PaulaQ]

You can't stop hon. This is more or less hard wired into you.

[Michelle (Oz)]

Susan

The shock of a 10 year failed marriage to someone who I thought was accepting caused me to stop dressing for almost 4 years. The urge/need returned with a vengeance over 2 years ago. That was some 3 1/2 years into a new relationship/marriage. I told my wife after a week's planning what and how to tell. She threatened suicide so let's say it didn't go well.

I told her I couldn't stop but loved her very much. I started and still have compartmentalised lives within a DADT arrangement so that my dressing wasn't in her face. Over time I brought my clothes out of hiding and shaped eyebrows, etc. Our DADT arrangement works well for us and continues to improve. It gives the relief of honesty and removes the fear of being found out. She knows where my clothes are but doesn't look. I dress some 4 days a week.

Frankly I admire my wife's ability to cope given her starting point. I admire her and respect the depth of her love for me even more than if she easily accepted my dressing. I wouldn't have said that 2 years ago when I felt her love was conditional.

So my thoughts for you are:

• acknowledge to yourself and accept that this thing is part of you - embracing who you are removes so much self-loathing and confusion, and gives a degree of clarity for your future
• don't make any promises to your wife that you are unable to keep - dishonesty and broken promises will make a bad situation worse
• think about talking to your wife about your needs - I will never advocate that you do this since I'm not in your world and I don't bear any of the fallout
• do not think your wife doesn't love you totally even if she doesn't accept or tolerate your dressing - to me merely knowing but not thinking about my dressing is a priceless gift of love from my wife
• if you can and do dress, don't be in her face trying to gain her involvement - the absence of boundaries other than self-imposed and no emotional roller coaster in the relationship are themselves valuable.

Hope my experience is helpful to you.

Michelle

[mechamoose]

I'm apologize to our members who live this kind of life, but DADT really annoys me.

I get that we have established lives, and that those didn't include pretty heels when we set out on this journey. But I'm kind of raging at the partners (those who promised 'in sickness or in health, for richer or poorer') who have an issue with your identity. It isn't like you don't love them anymore. It isn't like you lied taking those vows... What, is your image more important than your personhood? If you still adhere to the values and priorities you did while 'en-boots' as 'en-heels', WTF does it matter?

Ok, if you/he/she has sexual issues regarding identity, I get that. But what does that have to do with who has your back? What does that have to do with who will take care of you when you are sick? What does that have to do with finding a person who will be by your side no matter what?

Does a skirt matter that much? Really?

If so, maybe it wasn't what was advertised. For that I'm sad.

- MM

[PaulaQ]

But I'm kind of raging at the partners (those who promised 'in sickness or in health, for richer or poorer') who have an issue with your identity. It isn't like you don't love them anymore. It isn't like you lied taking those vows... What, is your image more important than your personhood? If you still adhere to the values and priorities you did while 'en-boots' as 'en-heels', WTF does it matter?

Yes, it is in many cases.

Ok, if you/he/she has sexual issues regarding identity, I get that. But what does that have to do with who has your back? What does that have to do with who will take care of you when you are sick? What does that have to do with finding a person who will be by your side no matter what?

The vows we swear in marriage really are pretty meaningless these days. I hate to be cynical, but I know too many women who's spouses dumped them like garbage after they found out they were trans. I'll never remarry.

Does a skirt matter that much? Really?

For some, yes.

Being trans in some manner brings up questions most cis / heteronormative people don't even have the vocabulary to discuss, much less answer.

I don't really blame women for having a hard time of this. Look, the role of the modern woman is a confusing, screwed up mess. They are supposed to be empowered - so we spend billions on ads to show them that their bodies are flawed and ugly. (It is really bad when the most beautiful women in the world need airbrushing / photoshop...) We tell them they are supposed to be CEO's - and stay at home mom's, and then blame them for whichever choice they make. They get lower pay for the same work - a uterus tax in effect. (You might have a kid someday!) They have about ZERO control over their bodies with medical doctors. Want your tubes tied because you are a young executive go-getter? Good luck with that, because your patronizing male doctor will likely tell you "oh little lady, you might change your mind..."

Women deal with a LOT of crap men just don't have to deal with. So you throw in a husband who dresses and acts like a woman sometimes? Who can blame some women for freaking out over that? It's like NOT ONE THING in their lives makes one iota of sense. I really do think this is especially tough on the straight women. Society's unwritten standards for them are ambiguous, yet rigidly enforced socially in so many situations. It's just awful.

That said, yeah, it sucks when you come out as trans and get dropped faster than a burning bag of dog crap.

[mechamoose]

Yes, it is in many cases.

I *know* it does, sweetie, but that doesn't make it right or proper.

The vows we swear in marriage really are pretty meaningless these days. I hate to be cynical, but I know too many women who's spouses dumped them like garbage after they found out they were trans. I'll never remarry.

I'm sorry that has been your experience, but that kind of inconstant behavior doesn't line up with 'vows', does it?

Being trans in some manner brings up questions most cis / heteronormative people don't even have the vocabulary to discuss, much less answer.

That isn't my point, sweetie. The person who is willing to stand beside you while you fight something like cancer isn't necessarily the same person who will stand beside you while discussing floral arrangements. The commitment level is kind of different. Death issues are kind of skirt-blind.

I don't really blame women for having a hard time of this.

I don't blame them for it being a challenge. I DO blame them for retreating.

That said, yeah, it sucks when you come out as trans and get dropped faster than a burning bag of dog crap.

THINK about that hon. WHY is that happening? Are you/we still a provider/protector? F^@k yes we are!! What is left? Role expectations? Sexual expectations?

Why does that trump our GD *identity*?

...and PaulaQ, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just sick and tired of members making excuses for intolerant partners.. like it is OUR fault. it ISN'T.

How is being ourselves doing something WRONG?

If we are keeping our promises to our partners, then WHAT HAVE WE DONE????

Luv you honey!

- MM

[Sara Jessica]

It becomes "our" fault when these gender issues are not disclosed prior to marriage.

Women don't grow up dreaming of marrying a guy who wants to be her or dress like her. Women are generally into men who look and behave the part 100% of the time. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm in a really cool DADT relationship (leans towards acceptance but decidedly non-participatory) and my wife knew the gist of my being not long after we started dating. It takes a very special woman to put up with these things to whatever degree they are able, DADT, acceptance, participation. And the woman who for whatever reason is unable to cope with it is no less special. It is what it is.

[Michelle (Oz)]

It takes a very special woman to put up with these things to whatever degree they are able, DADT, acceptance, participation. And the woman who for whatever reason is unable to cope with it is no less special. It is what it is.

@Mechamoose - IMO it is inappropriate for you to hijack Susan's thread which seeks genuine support to address a difficult dilemma that many of us have faced. What you think about DADT arrangements are fortunately totally irrelevant to me. My wife has moved from threatening suicide on the basis that she couldn't live with me but can't live without me to yesterday coming across my laundry hanging in a spare bedroom cupboard to dry. All she did was tell me she loves me. Two years ago she would have gone to bed for 24 hours crying.

I like Sara Jessica's post. I know my wife is special and loves me totally and unconditionally. Walk in my 'heels' and you would understand.

[LelaK]

SusanGirl: I haven't dressed since last Feb because I was feeling my wife might catch me. She never has liked me shaving my body in the winter months.

Have you heard women say they own their own bodies? That means you too. Everyone has the right to do with their own body as they please, as long as it hurts no one. Am I right?

SusanGirl: I hardly ever dress in town but I made a mistake a left one stocking in my SUV in the back seat. I told her the truth I like wearing them. Didn't go over very well. The next chance I had every thing was gone. I felt OK with it.

You both should understand that what's yours is yours and what's hers is hers. Respect each other's property. And neither of you owns the other person. I'm pretty sure. But I'm not sure at what point such things should be hashed out. Just something to consider.

[mechamoose]

It wasn't my intention to hijack a thread.. it is where the posts led.

[docrobbysherry]

Susan, I strongly suggest u and your SO visit a counselor immediately. It doesn't sound like either one of u understand what it takes to make a marriage work.

She doesn't approve and secretly tosses your stuff.

U think it's fine to sneak around and dress on the sly.

U both sound very immature!

If u don't start communicating and compromising, u probably won't have to worry about her catching u for long. Because u may not be living together soon. Keep on the way u r and I expect your union to fail. If u both care, you'll both want help. If not? Remember, I called it here!

[Teresa]

Michelle I'm with you on this ! It's a case of balancing values, I think too much of my family to hurt them but I know I'm paying the price ! Some days it feels worth it and others it really hurts and no one appears to care !!

[MatildaJ.]

I'm kind of raging at the partners (those who promised 'in sickness or in health, for richer or poorer') who have an issue with your identity...If you still adhere to the values and priorities you did while 'en-boots' as 'en-heels', WTF does it matter?

How about if your priorities change, so you talk about nails and clothes and makeup all the time? I have no interest in those things, and neither did he when we married.

What does that have to do with finding a person who will be by your side no matter what? Does a skirt matter that much?

I'm not leaving him, but for the record, it's the wig & personality changes that make me want to hang out in a different room, not the skirt. The skirt is fine.

[Milou]

I thought I couldn't, but I'm still going strong. Maybe I'm just not a crossdresser.

[katie elouise]

Hi Susan I so feel for you right now ,so many of us have purged and thrown everything away in the vain thought that if I have no female possessions our need to dress and express ourselves will some how go away . Trust me it wont go away ever you are the way you are for life and need to be honest to yourself and with others ,purging is a hugely costly both emotionally as well as financially its also damaging to your relationship as you SO will think that that faze has passed only to re appear later an then back to square one .
I think michelle oz makes so many really good points .

:
•acknowledge to yourself and accept that this thing is part of you - embracing who you are removes so much self-loathing and confusion, and gives a degree of clarity for your future
•don't make any promises to your wife that you are unable to keep - dishonesty and broken promises will make a bad situation worse
•think about talking to your wife about your needs - I will never advocate that you do this since I'm not in your world and I don't bear any of the fallout
•do not think your wife doesn't love you totally even if she doesn't accept or tolerate your dressing - to me merely knowing but not thinking about my dressing is a priceless gift of love from my wife
•if you can and do dress, don't be in her face trying to gain her involvement - the absence of boundaries other than self-imposed and no emotional roller coaster in the relationship are themselves valuable.

[Tina_gm]

Wonderful post Katie. It summarizes so well on these issues. Susan, part of our problem, is when somehow our partners discover or we tell "some" of ourselves, we do not fully disclose all. So they in turn will not get a full picture of it all. Not that it will make "liking" it any better, but perhaps when a full reveal is accomplished, the reasons of why can make what we do a little more acceptable. And acceptance and enjoyment are two completely different things. Dangle your legs in cold water. No way you are going to want to jump in. But over time, you can become accustomed to it to a degree. Not that you are ever going to want to choose the water, but it becomes not so horrible. If the 1st feeling of the very cold water is believed to be how it will always be, or not understood other than its really cold, it makes a difference, or can.

I would like to address some of MM's statements about DADT. Specifically the point about how in marriage we sign on for in sickness and health... based on the person we marry. So something happens to this person we marry, something horrible and it will affect the rest of our lives. THIS PERSON. But then what if this person suddenly is no longer the person whom we married? Does gender matter? yes, because it is THIS PERSON. In your specific case, for neither of you, gender is an issue that matters. That is wonderful for the both of you. But for a large majority, gender does matter. But for many women who have gone on to to marry gender variant people but they knew going in, they discovered in the early stages of a marriage that they can love and marry someone like us. But they knew going in. The relationship evolved with the knowledge and they grew with it. Void that all out, and you get a lot of problems. Now, those problems can be overcome in many instances and there are many members who have on this board, but it takes a lot of time, patience and compromise to overcome. And it was the actions of those who did not disclose all of themselves who are ultimately responsible for this.

Gender identity is hard wired into 90+% of people. It is how it is. WE are the minority. When WE go into marriage with one of the majority and do not disclose who we are, the rules change, because ultimately we didn't follow them in the 1st place.

[kimdl93]

It's difficult to cope with externally imposed restrictions. You made a good faith effort, but difficult even if you had chosen to abstain on your own. Now you're back in your comfort zone, but sooner or later, you're likely to slip up and leave something out again. The cycle then may repeat itself. Is there another way?

[vicky_cd99_2]

Many times when we come out to our spouses after we have been married for a while,as in my case, it causes much tension. The shock of the man she married not being the man she thought he was. The thought that we deceived them by not being honest from the beginning. I was lucky. After the shock wore off mine started tolerating me. But she told me something that I never thought about. "When you came out of the closet, you threw me in it". I am a very fortunate person to have such a loving partner in life.

[Thumbelina]

Many times when we come out to our spouses after we have been married for a while,as in my case, it causes much tension. The shock of the man she married not being the man she thought he was. The thought that we deceived them by not being honest from the beginning. I was lucky. After the shock wore off mine started tolerating me. But she told me something that I never thought about. "When you came out of the closet, you threw me in it". I am a very fortunate person to have such a loving partner in life.

After I had my first (and to date, only) out experience a few years ago I took the plunge and told my wife about it. Though she made it clear that she simply could not (would not?) understand, she made a surface effort to accept it. I say surface because a) she soon after threw away the clothes I had worn that day and b) she found many subtle ways to play what I call the ‘shaming’ card. And I would make this observation: even after we’ve made the conscious decision to accept and love ourselves as we are; whether we’re crossdressers, transvestites, transgender, gay, bi, lesbian, or what-have-you, most of us will still be susceptible, at least to a certain extent, to the ‘shaming’ card.

Recently I had a profound realization. I realized that on a very fundamental level my wife does not accept me. Yes, we are still together, but she has learned that I am not the man she assumed I was when we got married 25 years ago and she will never understand or accept the man I really am. Though she believes she might, or could, or would, ultimately she won’t, she can’t. In the world she was raised in it’s not okay to be non-Catholic, it’s not okay to be bisexual, it’s not okay to be polyamorous, it’s not okay to be a crossdresser, it’s not okay to have a mental health disability, all things that she has learned I am.

So here is the irresistible force paradox: Though I might, if I so chose (and I don’t so choose), be able to change my behavior it still wouldn’t change the ‘who I am’ (the irresistible force.) By the same token, she can’t change the way she was raised and the things she fundamentally believes (the immovable object.) So what does happen when an irresistible force meets an immovable object? “…Actually you can test this by breaking something. That is essentially what happens. The force causes the object to become deformed or to break.”

As Vicky says above, my wife, at best, chooses to tolerate who I am. that's woefully inadequate in a committed relationship. For me, the question is, what I need to do, in this relationship, to keep from being deformed or from breaking? The answer is understanding that I neither own, nor am responsible for my wife's emotions, actions, biases, prejudices, reactions, etc., and I chose to not give them any power over me.

[MsVal]

I thought I could stop

This is directed, not so much toward Susan, as to those that believe that they can stop.

I learned a lot in therapy, with more to come, but here's one biggie:

Early on, I told my therapist that I am Superman. I have super powers of self discipline. I was a two pack a day smoker that one day decided to quit. I threw away half a pack of cigarettes and never had any form of tobacco in the decades since. I had a problem with drinking. I quit the same way and have been alcohol free for over 35 years. Recently, I dropped 1/3 of my weight in well under a year by simply willing myself to eat less.

I can use this same super power to quit crossdressing.

She congratulated on for my choices to live a healthier lifestyle but not to confuse those BEHAVIORS with crossdressing, for crossdressing is not a behavior. She said that unlike smoking, drinking, or eating to excess, the urge will stay with you. You may repress it, but that repression comes at the expense of mental health, and will manifest itself is some other form.

Your mileage may vary...

[MelanieAnne]

Wives and crossdressing mix about like oil and water. They don't like hairy guys. They don't like shaved guys. They don't like neanderthal guys. They don't like wimpy guys. There's just no pleasing them. My experience with women is that they like to keep guys on the defensive.

[Meghan]

Hon, you can't stop. You're stuck with this. There are no "I successfully stopped being gender variant" stories out there. You are who you are. ]

meghan