Why do we put GG's on a pedestal?

[kimdl93]

I think this is a rather large overgeneralization of the attitudes here. Personally, I don't put anyone on pedestals. I appreciate open mindedness, intelligence, curiosity, tolerance and the ability to express ones views clearly and thoughtfully, just as I appreciate physical attractiveness and a sense of style - these are all rather subjective criteria and not gender specific. I think its fair to say that this forum includes some individual who have rather romanticized or idealized views of women and equally unrealistic perceptions of masculinity. I suppose there are as many narcissists here as in the general society, people who for whatever reason, think the entire world revolves around them and exists for their gratification. And there are plain old misogynists among us, who to varying degrees resent or envy women.

[Vanessa5]

I love GG. I try not to put them on a pedestal but they do deserve to be revered. I also am very chivalrous. Possible the most masculine thing about me.

[DebbieL]

After reading Danielle's rant, she brought up an interesting point. A lot of people here put GG's on a pedestal. I have read a lot of things along the lines of

1. A TS or CD can never be as pretty as or prettier than a GG.

That's not always true. I know some beautiful TS women. The trap we often find ourselves in is comparing ourselves to the most beautiful woman in the room, or the beautiful woman in the magazine or TV show or movie. The joke here is that women fall into the same trap. Eventually a TS realizes that she doesn't have to be the most beautiful woman in the room, even better if she's not. She just has to look "about average". We have to learn to dress appropriate to age, size, and situation. A girl who goes to Target in 3 inch heels, miniskirt and satin blouse and big hair wig is going to get attention - and will probably get read as CD or drag queen even if she's a GG.

2. A TS or CD can never be as feminine or more feminine than a GG.

Again, this is all relative. Compared to a top fashion model or pop singer, we may seem butch, but compared to the average woman in the shopping mall, we may actually stand out for being too feminine.

Part of the challenge here is that many of us have tried very hard to hide our feminine traits and mannerisms when we had to be men. Others, like me could barely "pass" as male, and even then the assumption was usually that I was "gay or something". It's really funny, now that I have been reading more books on how transitioners act like girls, I realize that it was probably obvious to women that I was a girl on the inside, and doing a very poor job of hiding it.

On the other hand, compared to many women my age, I look darn good, and am pretty feminine. I had to break a few habits that I had been forced to learn as a man, for example, instead of the formal nod as you look another man in the eyes directly while facing him, I learned to tilt my head, smile, look sideways, and then down. My walk was already feminine. On the other hand, I had to learn not to "plop" into chairs - which was something I had to learn and practice doing to pass as a guy. So many more things.

3. A TS or CD can never be as sensitive or more sensitive than a GG.

Depends on what you mean by sensitive. As a boy growing up I had to learn NOT to cry. I had to learn NOT to giggle. Giggles, sighs, and crying were likely to provoke violence from other boys. Many fathers told their sons "quit crying or I'll give you something to cry about", which usually involved welts or bruises.

When I felt safe with my first wife, I found that I loved to watch Disney movies and cry, to watch romances, and cry, and in Wrath of Khan, when Spock died, I greived like it was the death of my own father. When my mother died, I found myself crying in even more situations. I watch the "StepMom" where Susan Sarandan is dying of cancer and start crying as soon as they get to the diagnosis, and don't stop until the end.

Once I started on hormones, shortly after my dad died, I really started to enjoy a good cry, or a good giggle.

Growing up I was considered "hyper-sensitive" for a boy, but I would have been about normal for a girl.

4. A thread was once started by a GG asking why are CDers often prettier than GG's. Someone, a CDer, replied by saying that if that thread had been started by a CDer instead, everyone would have stomped on him.

Both are accurate observations. About 70% of women are just women. They don't try to be women, they just are. They dress like other women because that's how other women dress, they act like other women act because that's how other women act. Women in modeling, theater, or dance often get special training in how to be "more of a woman". I'm always amused when someone points to a picture of a beautiful model in a gorgious outfit - because I know that the girl was literally "sewn into" the costume or outfit, to make it look unrealistically beautiful, then the photographer gives her warning of when he's ready to shoot and she carefully pulls in her tummy, expands her chest, chooses angles she knows look good in photographs, and pops her eyes wide open or whatever other deliberate facial expression is requested by the photographer, 36 clicks later (for film), and she can finally breathe, relax, slouch, and be "normal".

Teen girls often try to dress up more, often trying too hard to be glamorous or sexy, and sometimes with tragic consequences. As they become aware of the problems that come with being outstanding, they begin to try to blend in with their peers to avoid being singled out as a target for unwanted attention.

Some CDs never get past that teen "sexy girl" look. We've seen a few pictures of CD girls who are in their 50s but are wearing juniors fashions. One reason for this is that they never "go out and play". When they are only dressing up in the privacy of their own home, and maybe making rare trips to safe events such as CD support groups, there isn't enough feedback to know what's appropriate.

When I read some of these kind of statements, I find them to be very transphobic.
So my questions for everyone.

1. Why do we put GG's on a pedestal here?

In my own experience, I used to get seriously tongue tied when I would see a girl who was extraordinarily beautiful. Part of the struggle was that I might be slightly sexually attracted to her, but I also wanted to BE her. A few times, when I was younger, I would give her complements on her choices, but when you are a guy complimenting a woman on her shoes, it's just bizarre. You risk being outed, and the persecution that comes with it. if you like her dress, because it really compliments her figure, she can't figure out whether you want to see her naked, or if you want to wear the dress. Either way, it could be awkward.

2. How do you think that TSes who suffer with serious gender issues might feel when you tell them that they can never be as pretty as a GG, or can never be as feminine or sensitive as a GG? Like being TS we go through enough being discriminated against by society and suffering for decades with being in the wrong body, and being told to "man up"? Society tells us enough that we're second class to GG's. Do we in the trans community really need to perpetuate this idea that TSes are inferior to GG's?

Suicidal and self destructive. When I was 14 and found out I had a Bass voice, I was devastated. It was as if she said "I sentence you to life in solitary confinement without the possibility of parole. As much as I loved singing, and I did, I desperately wanted a higher voice, even tenor would be OK. Ironically, my speaking voice was always very high. It was a bit like Jim Neighbors, but my speaking voice was even higher.

The theme of self destruction took many forms, including booze, drugs, overeating, Eventually I ended up in a mental health center and got sober, and a heart attack in 2001 (i weight over 330 lbs), a stroke in 2007 (weight 295), and a heart attack in 2010 (weight 280) made me realize that I needed access to Debbie to survive. When I was out and about as Debbie, my weight often dropped to below 200 lbs, in 1995 even dropping to 148. But when Debbie got locked in the closet or the drawer, those wonderful personality traits went with it.

3. Who gives anyone the authority to declare one group of people superior to another?

Much of this is who you are and who you want to be. For many TSs, cross-dressing was a phase and early steps toward transition. To them, CDs are "lower" on the scale. Some of us knew we were type 6 transsexuals, but had to go through the other stages to get to where we could have the courage to transition.

To a CD who identifies as a man, and thinks dressing is "just for fun", a TS would be "less of a man". Many men, especially those in military or sports or blue collar environments, have been conditioned to believe that it's a bad thing to be a "girl". Even some of the alternative terminology used by coaches and teammates alike are too vulgar to post here.

On the flip side, to a woman, good vs bad reflects her own desires of others. If she wants a "manly man" husband, and then finds out her husband has a thing for stockings and garterbelts - that makes him less of a man, meaning CD is worse, and TS is the worst.

On the other hand, if a woman is bisexual and is attracted to women as well as men, then a feminine man could be very attractive, and the more feminine the better. Some women even enjoy the feeling of power they get when there "sissy" husband submits to her and acts more feminine. Often, feminine men are more coachable and more eager to please, doing things requested by their wives or girlfriends that would be a serious turn-off to an "Alpha male". For these women, the challenge is pushing through that wall of defense. Some women can see that their husbands or lovers desperately want to be girls, but are terrified of what would happen if anyone, including her, found out. When a guy has had 25 years of programming that tell him he has to be a man and that being a "sissy" is so bad it merits violent attacks, it can take a very strong woman to break down those walls so that her husband or lover can be truly happy and truly be themselves.

For a transsexual, the "forced cross-dressing" was the "forced masculinity". Perhaps this is one of the reasons why "forced feminization" is such a popular art form in books, magazines, and adult films. Being "forced" makes it possible to drop the barriers created by years of forced cis-gender conformance.

[Jenniferathome]

That sure explains why I feel so short!