Nowhere "under" the rainbow?

[MelanieAnne]

And no you don't see heterosexual people acting out (except they do) because they are all you see. Banal LGBT characters wouldn't even exist on TV if it weren't for the rioters and protesters marching in their underwear to create a scene, to force the government and society to pay attention to the violence and the suicide and then AIDS.

Are you blaming heterosexuals for AIDS and suicides amongst the LGB folks?

• While estimates show that men who have sex with men (MSM) comprise only about 2% of the U.S. population, this group accounts for most new HIV infections (63% in 2010, with an additional 3% occurring in MSM with a history of injection drug use).4,5 Between 2008 and 2010, annual new HIV infections increased 12% among MSM.4

Between 2008 and 2010, annual new HIV infections increased 12% among MSM.4

Is this the progress you are referring to?

And I have no objection to civil unions, legal contracts, etc. But "marriage" should be between a man and a woman. This is just part of the onging attack on our culture by the left.

And as we know, children learn by observing adults. And children adopted by gay or lesbian couples, will grow up never seeing or knowing a normal mother and father relationship. Raising children involves more than food and clothing and a roof over their heads.

The LGB folks are free to pursue happiness. The Constitution permits it, but does not guarantee it.
And assault or murder against the LGB folks is a crime, just as it is against anyone else. But all the parades and whistle blowing isn't going to prevent it, if someone is determined to do it.

[DebbieL]

OK. What "rights" do the LGB folks not have, that the rest of us have?

Imagine suddenly being in a world where you, and only you, no longer had your 4th, 5th, 8th, or 14th amendment rights?

Not only were you no longer protected from cruel and unusual punishment, you would be required to report daily to be violently assaulted by 10-12 boys 3-4 times a day?
This is what "Sissies" experience in most schools, including most public schools and even MORE intensely in Christian schools.
This treatement is also common to "faggots", "fairies", "queers", and "queens". In some cases, it ends in murder.
The administration's response is "Boys will be boys" and when seriously pressed because the violence is documented by hospital records - is "well I can't very well expell half the kids in his class can I?". In some schools, gym coaches even ENCOURAGE such violence, often rewarding such behavior.

What if you suddenly lost your right to privacy - every credit card purchase, every store you went to, the exact details of every purchase, were all suddenly made public, with copies being sent to your employers, members of your church, your wife, your chlidren, your in-laws, and your co-workers? Many religious groups routinely engage in such practices as recording license plates, taking pictures of patrons of gay bars, and other invasions. Nearly half of all male teen suicides are "Gay" (possibly bisexual) and "Tranni" (anywhere in the spectrum of transgender from fetish dresser to transsexual). For many the the triggering event is when they are involuntarily outed, often by some religious fanatic.

Imagine that your property could be seized because you were gay or transgender? My wife lived in "Focus on the Family" country (El Paso County Colorado), and members of the Nazarine were supporting her in not only divorcing me, getting half my after tax income, but also having ALL child visitation revoked PERMANENTLY, with the threat of automatic arrest and indefinite detainment without trial if I missed 3 child support payments in a row..

When I was "Outed" by the brother of a boyfriend of a coworker, My supervisor was told by top executives who were told of my activities as Debbie, "I want him OUT as soon as Legally Possible". i would get a list of 10 items, which would take a month to accomplish, and they were listed in priortiy on Monday. On Friday, I would be presented with a list, which I was NOT allowed to keep, in which the tak priorities were in reverese order. I would then have to sit through 2 hours of "Counseling" from 6 to 8 pm by a manager who I knew was a drug addict and alcoholic actively using, while I had 9 years clean and sober.

When Lee and I got married in New Jersey, and I started to consider transition, one chief concern was the possibility that the marriage would not be legal after transition because it was a "Gay Marriage". We found at that is SOME states, she would have lost health care coverage, life insurance death benefits, could have been denied my 401K if I died first, and could even be denied Social Security Widow's benefits. In some states, they could even take our home. Back in the 1950s and 1960s, such losses were quite common. Even modern domestic partnership agreements are not always recognized. If your life long partner for 10 or more years is suddenly facing a life threatening condition, that's not the time you want to find out that the insurance company, to home you have been paying "Family Plan" premiums has decided that your partner is not eligible for coverage. Your choices are bankruptcy or watch him die. However, you CAN'T watch him die, because in many hospitals, gay partners, even domestic partners are not officially recognized as "Family", which means that you have to suffer, unable to see the person you have loved most of your adult life, and comfort them during their pain and suffering. In fact, in certain hospitals, they might even withold treatement because your partner was identified as gay. Remember that many hospitals are supported by religious institutions.

The way I see it, they want special rights, treatment, and privileges.If they are assaulted, that's a crime.

This may be factually true, but in many districts, for example Houston Texas, if a gay man is murdered by 2-3 men who slowly beat him to death in front of several witnesses, they will be charged with 3rd degree manslaughter and may even get off with probation. On the other hand, if a gay man defends himself when attacked by a group of men, and lands a punch than turns out to be fatal, he is most likely to be charged with murder and likely to recieve the maximum sentence.

Going back to that school scenario, the coach mignt not only not interveen when a student PERCEIVED as gay is whipped with belt buckles until the bruises, welts and cuts require hosptializathion, but he might award the mostn aggressive attackers wih positions on the football team or basketball team. Many churches encourage students to organize such attacks.

Just as it is with anyone else. They seem to be seeking some kind of validation for their lifestyles, rather than keeping it private.

Actually, all it takes to become a target for such attacks is to be PERCEIVED as being gay or transgendered. If you don't make lewd comments about a woman's breasts (because she's a friend), you are GAY. If you don't Drink, fight, fart, and brag about your escapades with women, then you ARE GAY. The people demanding validation are the worst elements of sexism, racism, and arrogance.

Go to any sports team practice. To motivate the team, he will taunt them by calling them a bunch of GIRLS, or QUEERS, the language gets more graphic and more offensive, but doesn't deserve to be repeated again here.

And their tactics are pretty much in your face.

Actually, the group that's "In your face" are the right wing conservative fundamentalist Christians. They have been known to go to the FUNERALS of PERCEIVED homosexuals (whether actually homosexual or not), and proudly brandish signs saying "Death to Queers", and "Queers go to hell". Agani, these are just the "polite" phrases.

The ultimate aim of these groups is to use intimidation to force silence and ignorance. They often accuse the gay community of "recruting" or "turning someone gay". Often this is because they have someone they know, who actually IS gay, but has never been allowed to talk about it with anyone - and finally RUNS to the LGBT community desparately seeking help.
When you consider the entire spectrum of Bisexual-Gay and Transgender-Transsexual, including cross-dressers, fantasies, and so-called "private" desires, it's actually the cis-gender "Alpha Male" Type 1 heterosexual only in fantasy and activity that is the minority, possibly as little as 10% of the total population. But to protect their POWER over others, they use terror to enforce silence.

There are strong motives. The desire to have lots of "Cannon fodder" for the military, for example. To make a general, you need lots of people who will be killed in the first few minutes of the conflict, usually the omega and beta males.

The problem is that 20th and 21st century war is no longer won by wealding a sward, club, or mace. The most critical factor in winnig WW-ii was the ability to read Hitler's "E-mail", made bossible by a gay effeminite man named ALAN TURING, who created a computer program that could crack Hitler's Enigma codes, including the codes to "High Command".

You do not see heterosexual people running around, wearing funny outfits, blowing whistles and proclaiming "We're heterosexual and proud"

No, they would never walk around in white robes with white hoods, or wear T-Shirts with "White Power" symbols, They would never wear funny robes or uniforms that would be associated with real physical threats and past and future military action. They would NEVER get Tatoos to indicate their racist and homophobic and transphobic allegiences. And if you went through the photographs of TEA Party Rallies, you would never see any of these "funny outfits" warn as a warning to candidates, especially in primaries, that it is THOSE kinds of people who vote in the GOP primaries, and since only 1/10th of the voters vote in those off-year primaries and local election primaries, they can unseat even the most successful moderate congressman - unless he accepts their terms and ideologies. (End tirade).

"We're here, we're heterosexual, get used to it"

Usually, the leader is holding a cross, and often there is a man on the cross. Most weekends of the summer, you can see them around these public buildings, the girl is usually wearing a beautiful white gown, and often a hundred or more people come to see the spectacle. Every Sunday, they ring bells so that all of the heterosexual people will know it's time to come inside and hear about how they are good and wonderful and how a transsexual is "An ABOMINATION AGAinST GOD" and should be "STONED TO DEATH". The first time I was STONED I was all of SIX YEARS OLD! I had traded clothes with one of my many girl friends. The mother of that girl called the PTA, and they called ministers, school board members, and the principal of the school, telling the teacher that she would be reassigned to the worst school in the city if she EVER let me play with girls again.

When she sent me out to the playground to play with the boys, they were ready. They told me to pull up clumps of grass, and throw them at the other "Team", but within a few seconds, they were pulling rocks the size of golf balls out of their pants pockets, coat pockets,and BOTH teams formed a circle and started thowing the rocks at me. I still have a scar under my right eye from a rock that would have left me blind if it had gone up instead of to the side. As they threw the rocks, they chanted "Stone the Sissy".

In the following 8 years, I was hospitalized over 64 times.

A persons sexuality is a private matter. Now please explain what rights they are denied.

Suppose that someone saw your posting, and recognized your face? THEN they mass circulated e-mails to every member of your church, showing you in your dress, saying that you were a "Queer", "Sissy", an "Abomination". They sent it to every person at your workplace, and they sent it to every member of your family, incuding your wife, your parents, your children, your aunts, uncles, cousins, and many others.

You go to work the next morning, and you see a note saying "Die FAGGOT" on your desk, where everyone can see it. No one has even bothered to throw it in the trash. At your next business meeting, your input is met with "Well', if we want the opition of "Those people" - limp wrist - "We'll ask you". Then everyone at the meeting starts to giggle, because they don't want to be the NEXT targets.

Your boss calls you in and gives you a rediculous assignment that you can't possibly do, and says, "We'll give you a team to help you", but the team is composed of fundambentalist Christians who have seen your picture and the writing under it claiming that you are not only a cross-dresser, but also homosexual, a "Sissy", and worse.

I've written a whole BOOK about what it is like to be living in stealth and to be "Outed" involuntarily, to me mislabled, and to experience persecution. This is a little taste.

[MelanieAnne]

Melanie, I would appreciate your reasoning for your point of view and answers to my questions much more than your one line dismissive comment. You have strong opinions, so please defend them maturely. I have an open mind and may learn something.

I just explained and defended my opinions. I'm done! Life is too short to waste it crusading and beating your head against a brick wall. Like they say, it feels so good when you stop.

[AllieSF]

Out and Proud, you see that all the time, those heterosexual males full of testosterone wearing masks to copy the team mascot, painting their faces to match the teams colors, wearing a wedge of Swiss cheese on their head to support the Packers, painting their bodies the team color and then getting together with their buddies who do the same thing and the spell out the team's name one letter per painted body. They are proud, happy, very funny and sometimes very weird looking team fanatics and very proud to be male. They do not have to say anything, their presentation and actions do it for them. Those actions even sometimes result in violence just to prove, or maybe confirm to others, their own maleness.

Those special rights that a lot of us LGBT people want are basic human rights, such as not to be discriminated against and attacked for being ourselves. Do you think that it is OK to attack others just because they are different than you are? Why do they make those crimes hate crimes? Hate crimes carry stiffer penalties in both jail time and monetary fines in order to discourage some of those less intelligent testosterone fueled males and estrogen fueled females from committing those crimes. Hate crimes are crimes of discrimination. They exist for racial, ethnic and religious crimes and the same is now applied to us transgender people in many states. We are fighting to get them in all of the states. Hopefully one day the idea of hate crimes will no longer exist and then we probably would not need the special designation.

We don't want special treatment, just equal treatment. When I go out dressed as a woman, I sure do not want to use a male restroom. Here in California I have the right to use the women's restroom and I always do. I do not want to keep my lifestyle, dressing as a women, deep in a dark closet. Why should I? Is it wrong in your opinion to dress as a woman and then go out of the house? I want to go out into the real world and enjoy it without worrying about people harassing me, when I am just walking by regardless of how I am dressed.

I am retired so employment for me is not an issue, but many members here are employed and need their jobs to live. Now in many states is it OK for any employer to fire an employee because they are transgender, a CD or a TS? Both can lose their employment very easily if their companies are against trans people. They lose their jobs and their family suffers. They get beat up for being trans and cannot work or become permanently disabled, all because of a hate crime.

LGB folks have experienced all of the above and so do some of us "T's". Do you think that we maybe deserve to suffer and have unequal rights when compared to the hetero's? The LGB people have forged the way and some how the "T" got added to their movement. I am happy for that. My sexuality is a private matter, my part time gender presentation is not when I am out. Are you saying that I should stay home and keep it private, or if I go out and get attacked that I deserved it? For the LGB folks, only recently have they been able to be themselves. It means that they can say that they have a same sex partner that they love and care for, they can hold their partners hand and even kiss them in public just like our hetero brothers and sisters do, all without being harassed by others, without the possibility that they could lose their jobs, be kicked out of clubs, or whatever.

Now, since TS's also fall under this wonderful umbrella, they have similar needs to our CD side plus many more, including proper medical coverage, employment protection and the ability to transition where they are currently employed without worrying about losing their jobs, insurance coverage to correct their birth defect of being born in the wrong body and many more.

Your statements are very generalized as if all LGBT folks are in your face type of people. Just like in the hetero world, we are made up of all types of personalities. Just look at the difference between you and me. We both like to dress as women, yet we have different views as to how we should live out lives. The same exists in any minority and/or discriminated group. As how we label ourselves, depends on where we are in the spectrum, so does the type of people vary all over the place from the closeted to those out and waving flags, from the conservative to the liberal, from the urban to suburban to out in the boondocks, all with different experiences, viewpoints and local and family cultures.

Power is in numbers and to obtain the rights that you do not want but the majority of us do means that we need to have enough flag wavers, protesters, people who work silently and quietly behind the scenes to help bring about needed change. Since most "T's" are in some way in the closet, it is very difficult to get the necessary mass of people to make something happen. That is why, whether one likes it or not, being a part of the overall LGBT umbrella and part of our "T" spectrum is so important.

Melanie, I respect your opinion, but I do not agree with it. Since you are a member here, I am guessing that you are here to learn and participate with other members. You are not alone with some of your opinions, but I would guess that I could safely say that the large majority of members here do not hold those same opinions. Maybe the topic of this thread and the various posts are something that you can learn from.

[Laura J]

I ma Transgender therefore fit under the 'T' in LGBT. I support the cause, but am not likely to participate in any parades or similar.

[Kimberly Kael]

Are you blaming heterosexuals for AIDS and suicides amongst the LGB folks?

Read any history of the start of the AIDS epidemic and you'll find a pattern of decisions depriving funding and care to people because, in the minds of those in power, they deserved it. Yes, I'm putting much of the blame for not treating the epidemic seriously and doing something about it squarely at the feet of heterosexuals.

As for suicides, let's start an experiment: pick an arbitrary group of people. Let's go with anyone with green eyes. Now get their parents to dismiss their green-eyed lifestyle, tell them they're going to hell, disown them, and while you're at it make sure as many social services as possible refuse to help until they give up having green eyes. Let's see what happens to the suicide rate among those with green eyes. I'm going with "blame" on this one, too.

[ophelia]

I have not examined our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to see how it relates to this subject.
Have any of you done so?

Last night's Daily Show article on scientifically supported views on climate change with John Stewart showed just how stupid some of the duly elected members of your House of Representatives are. Am I wrong in assuming that the vast majority in that house use the mens' loo? I'll lay the blame on the fatal inaction on Ebola as well on the very stupid men we have elected in both our great,vastly male and equally stupidly run governments.

[Jorja]

Ophelia, you do understand that the Daily Show is a FAKE news program. It is based on satire and comedy of today's political figures and media organizations. While I am far from impressed with our current Representatives and Senators actions they are the chosen ones to lead our country. Why? I haven't the foggiest idea. It just goes to show we need to elect better people to these offices.

[arbon]

And I have no objection to civil unions, legal contracts, etc. But "marriage" should be between a man and a woman. This is just part of the onging attack on our culture by the left.

And as we know, children learn by observing adults. And children adopted by gay or lesbian couples, will grow up never seeing or knowing a normal mother and father relationship. Raising children involves more than food and clothing and a roof over their heads.

Nope, my adopted daughter is not growing up in a normal mother / father family. She has a mom and a Poppy (her name for me). She is doing just fine, thanks.

Attack on our culture by the left - yep that is me, guilty as charged. When you have experienced discrimination and harassment for being who you are, you get a different perspective on things. I'll be in peoples faces if I have to be for equal rights.

[Dianne S]

But "marriage" should be between a man and a woman. This is just part of the onging attack on our culture by the left.

Umm... wow. Just wow.

I think you are being a bit hypocritical, thinking it's OK for transgender people to have rights including switching their gender markers, but not for LGB people to have same-sex marriage. Also, unfortunately, you think this is a "left" vs. "right" issue. Politics in the US is sadly partisan and dysfunctional, but I think compassionate people can respect gay marriage no matter what their political affiliation.

My daughter has a friend who was adopted by two lesbian parents. Her friend is a wonderful child - funny, smart, balanced and happy. She has a loving home life, a lot better that quite a few hetero couples I know.

[natcrys]

OK. What "rights" do the LGB folks not have, that the rest of us have? The way I see it, they want special rights, treatment, and privileges.If they are assaulted, that's a crime. Just as it is with anyone else. They seem to be seeking some kind of validation for their lifestyles, rather than keeping it private. And their tactics are pretty much in your face. You do not see heterosexual people running around, wearing funny outfits, blowing whistles and proclaiming "We're heterosexual and proud". "We're here, we're heterosexual, get used to it". A persons sexuality is a private matter. Now please explain what rights they are denied.

Whenever I see this kind of argument being made... this comes to my mind every time!

1907326_445142335630631_8249553236079731115_n.jpg

[AngelaYVR]

Not sure about other places but even in the LGBT friendly city that I live in, about the only T that is tolerated is drag queens (and that is a tenuous T at best!) If you are not CDing to pull men, then generally CDs are not really welcomed under this banner. For myself, I don't associate any label to who I am as I believe they are simply there to help other people deal with things they don't understand. Perhaps because dressing is not a core part of my being, just simply something I do, the same way I cycle, bake bread and collect acorns for no good reason in the autumn. Is my dressing really that different, for example, to what rubber fetishists or the BDSM crowd do? Anyway, my twopence. The LGBT have very real daily issues to deal with, I can understand how "hobby" CDs might just be a bit of a side show.

Angela xx

[flatlander_48]

I've been crossdressing all my life. But I'm not into wearing speedos, chaps, and tuu tuus, and blowing whistles in parades. And that group is not doing us or themselves any favors. While they may have some legitimate issues, the way they are going about it just invites blowback and ridicule.

And guys in dresses doesn't? Interesting compartmentalization...

OK. What "rights" do the LGB folks not have, that the rest of us have? The way I see it, they want special rights, treatment, and privileges.If they are assaulted, that's a crime. Just as it is with anyone else. They seem to be seeking some kind of validation for their lifestyles, rather than keeping it private. And their tactics are pretty much in your face. You do not see heterosexual people running around, wearing funny outfits, blowing whistles and proclaiming "We're heterosexual and proud". "We're here, we're heterosexual, get used to it". A persons sexuality is a private matter. Now please explain what rights they are denied.

In many parts of the US, people can be fired from their jobs for being gay. This is the point behind ENDA (employee non-discrimination act). The same goes for being denied housing. There is no legal recourse for these issues. Are you OK with that?

And no, the movement is not about validation. It is about existence; 2 very different concepts.

Also in many places, gay couples cannot adopt children. There are also places where, if one person in a gay couple brings a child to the relationship, the other person cannot adopt the child. In other words, some states have no provision for dual adoption. This mean that the other person has No Legal Standing with the child.

There are 1138 federal regulations, protections and privileges that depend upon marital status. Where gay couples cannot marry, these regulations, protections and privileges don't apply to them.

Back to the original topic, one thing that perhaps people don't know is that it wasn't very long ago that people here in New York could be arrested if they were not wearing at least 3 pieces of clothing consistent with their sex. Crossdressers didn't get that changed. There have never been enough of us out in the world.

Also here in New York is the push for GENDA (gender expression non-discrimination act). While this isn't aimed at crossdressers, I think eventually we may benefit from the fall-out.

Asa crossdresser and a bisexual, I see the issues from both sides, but it doesn't change my opinion. I think anyone who crossdresses, whether you are straight, gay or transexual, has at least some degree of gender dysphoria. As such then, we are transgender. We can deny it if we want, but it doesn't move the needle. And further, if we do not align ourselves with the LGBT community, where do we align ourselves?

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Ophelia, Labels are great for shipping packages but I don't need a label for myself.

[MelanieAnne]

FYI When I make a post. Read it and try and comprehend it, and respond if you wish. But do not come back with a lot of "So you are saying" this or that! Just respond to what I post and not a lot of hypotheticals, and don't go putting words in my mouth. Thanking you in advance.

Read any history of the start of the AIDS epidemic and you'll find a pattern of decisions depriving funding and care to people because, in the minds of those in power, they deserved it. Yes, I'm putting much of the blame for not treating the epidemic seriously and doing something about it squarely at the feet of heterosexuals.

Despite at least two decades of research, education, and millions of dollars spent on aides, aides is actually increasing amongst the homosexual crowd!

• While estimates show that men who have sex with men (MSM) comprise only about 2% of the U.S. population, this group accounts for most new HIV infections (63% in 2010, with an additional 3% occurring in MSM with a history of injection drug use).4,5 Between 2008 and 2010, annual new HIV infections increased 12% among MSM.4

How is that the fault of heterosexuals, and why do you suppose aides is actually increasing amongst the gay crowd? Here it comes......wait for it.
I'll take "What is the result of promiscous and unprotected sex amongst gay people", for $200, Alex!

[flatlander_48]

Promiscuity and marriage are inversely proportional.

[Beverley Sims]

I am similar to you.
Although I will associate with everyone privately and at social gatherings I get little satisfaction in publicly supporting people in a march or parade.

Outside fairs and social gatherings are also good to attend as one can melt into the crowd.

[Julogden]

Well, if you use the definition of terms as stated on this site, that the "T" (Transgender) in LGBT, a crossdressers is transgender and thus falls under the LGBT umbrella. As others have said above, you do not have to participate, carry a flag, or whatever. However, since one of the main purposes of the larger LGBT group is to obtain equal rights for all of its members and to secure necessary legal civil rights protections against discrimination in any shape or form, what they do does have benefits for all of us over the short and long run. So, when you can please do participate, even if it is only supporting and voting for legislation that further and protect our rights.

An excellent take on the situation, IMO, couldn't have said it better.

Carol

[MelanieAnne]

I have crossdressed for 50 years. But I'm not "transgender", no matter how you choose to spin it!

[AllieSF]

That's OK Melanie. It is good for you because it fits what you believe. However, people who follow the current definition of transgender will look and label you differently. Since you crossdress, this site labels you as transgender with the subset of crossdresser. No one is asking you to use that label. But your efforts to tell other people to use a different label will most probably fail for those who agree with the site's definition. They will still see and label you as transgender, as well as, a crossdresser.

Older people and some from the UK who grew up with the term transvestite, which was previously used for crossdressers, may state that they are still transvestites. They are not wrong either, however, others may use other more up to date terminology to describe them. What is used today may change in a few years. I am a crossdresser under the TG umbrella. That is my belief and I have no problem what someone else labels me.