Nowhere "under" the rainbow?

[ophelia]

I know this will inspire some critique..
But after viewing (but not participating in) some pride events this past summer I cannot say I am very comfortable under the LGBT rainbow banner.
I understand that society likes to box things up but as an occasional crossdresser, meaning that I don't publicly express my love of "feminine" style and trappings very often, I don't find myself having much in common with this group and its very legitimate and important social concerns.
What say you?

[Raychel]

I have to say that I am with you Ophelia, Not so sure I fit under that banner either,
but as said in other threads it is all just labels. labels are for soup cans. however you feel best
what ever group you feel you do or do not fit in. the most important part is that you are happy
with yourself and where you are in your life.

[hope springs]

Solely my opinion

As a hetero non-trans i dont have a personal stake in the LGBT community. However, we do have some things in common. CDers face ostracism and scorn much like the LGBTs. We wish for acceptance, strive to be more understood and grapple with difficult family issues due do our predalictions. So althoug many here are not LGBT, we sure as hell face similar problems. Therefore i do try and support their causes. They may be the only group thatwould support us. There are expections, individuals within any group can be defensive and non-supportive. But on the whole, i feel the two communities can be mutually supportive.
If not, well then we fight like they had to. They, the LGBT community, faced hate crimes and death for decades. So i give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their attitude towards CDers.

[Wildaboutheels]

Looks to me like CDing is "just" a Hobby to you?

And that you are neither compelled or controlled by it or feel powerless to stop it?

It's likely that you are like probably 99% of the CDers on the planet.

A part time MtF who does it for fun.

Just because you participate here does not mean you should support any "cause" does it?

It won't make you a "better" or worse CDer.

[Kate Simmons]

I'm pretty much of a "lone wolf" myself. Groups have the tendency to push their own agendas, especially some things I'm not always comfortable with. Such agendas may interfere with my individuality.

[AllieSF]

Well, if you use the definition of terms as stated on this site, that the "T" (Transgender) in LGBT, a crossdressers is transgender and thus falls under the LGBT umbrella. As others have said above, you do not have to participate, carry a flag, or whatever. However, since one of the main purposes of the larger LGBT group is to obtain equal rights for all of its members and to secure necessary legal civil rights protections against discrimination in any shape or form, what they do does have benefits for all of us over the short and long run. So, when you can please do participate, even if it is only supporting and voting for legislation that further and protect our rights.

[JessicaJHall]

While I fall in the part time "lone wolf" category as well, I see this as an important political movement, designed to open minds, inspire tolerance, and loosen rigid gender stereotypes. Political movements are usually contentious and diverse with their ranks, and often are described by the ironic (in this instance) metaphor "strange bedfellows" (no literal meaning in my case, anyway) mainly due to the fact that there is strength in numbers. One can have difficulty identifying with a movement, and still play an important role, even if it's just through armchair activism.
So while this may, or may not be an optimal fit for us, it is all we have, until more specific movements can be hatched. But speaking for myself only, that's going to be an tall order considering it's confined to a "closet" (with a laptop in it).

[Stephanie47]

I am not a joiner. I have the credentials to have joined many different groups over the years. The problem I have always encountered is my individuality almost precludes it. I have found, if you belong to a group, the group expects you to agree with everything that is espoused by the leadership group. I may support individual planks of an organization, but, may oppose other planks. Thus, I guess I'm in the lone wolf category. I have never had a desire to become a woman, although, if I was not a man being a woman would be fine with me.

I have found the most progress made on a issue is usually made through the efforts of the silent majority and not those who scream and yell. When the local news does a news clip of a pride parade showing hairy obese men in tutu's does that promote the cause? Or does the tastefully attired gay, lesbian or cross dresser who is your neighbor do more for the cause? Of course, sometimes I have difficulty figuring out what the cause may be. I say this because I have among my friends and relationships men and women who are gays and lesbians. I know they are gays and lesbians, but, I have to recall that fact because they seem like me- normal everyday people. I don't include or exclude anyone based on any criteria other than being a civil person.

I prefer to enjoy my Stephanie time within my home because she brings me relief from stresses of life. Venturing outside of my comfort zone would defeat Stephanie's purpose. I shall remain a man who feels comfort donning women's dresses for my personal comfort.

But, alas, for all of you, please do your thing!

[Marcelle]

Hi Ophelia,

While I am not a big label person, I do consider myself "transgender" as there is a part of me who wishes to express "female" for a variety of reasons. However, I don't consider myself a political person and tend to shy away from groups as they can be complicated and sometimes quite elitist . . . "you are not like me, so you don't belong" or "be happy we allow you to sit at the big kids table", "tow the party line or shut up". While I do not consider myself part of the Transgender Shock Troops, I still try to educate those around me when I am out and about and I am hoping by having good interactions with others they will see I am just a normal person who dresses like a girl sometimes and this will help the cause sort to speak. Will I march in a Pride Parade? No, because that is not my thing but I do support the concept and will work as hard as possible for rights for all.

. . . It's likely that you are like probably 99% of the CDers on the planet. A part time MtF who does it for fun.

Interesting stats . . . where did you get them? Just curious because I suspect they are bit high.

Hugs

Isha

[ArleneRaquel]

Many years ago I was very active in "Pride events", today not as much, except for online activities. The rainbow is OK withe me.

[CherylFlint]

When I first started to finally go out dressed, I’d go to Gay bars, thinking that I’d be accepted.
Wrong.
So I decided I’d go to Lesbian bars and got the same reaction.
Then I went to just regular bars and, after I was “made”, got the same reaction as the first two places I went to.
Face it, the world views us with suspicion: they don’t know what to make of us.
But that’s okay. I can’t help who, and what, I am, and neither can any other CD. So I just go on out there and have fun, it’s all any of us can do.
And if there are those who “don’t get it”, no amount of explaining will make them see that we’re not monsters, we’re just girls.
And I agree about you’re views about the rainbow banner.

[Katey888]

Yes - it's struck me as a not entirely harmonious relationship and in truth, an almost incidental relationship in that:

LBG => Sexual orientation
T => Gender identity mismatch either total or a 'spectrum' dysphoria - and probably doesn't include fetish CDs (FCDs?)

But, in the oft proven (although sometimes politically awkward) adage of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend..." - the enemy in this case being one of intolerance and misunderstanding amongst society of what appear to be lifestyle 'choices' to them but what we generally understand and accept are deep rooted conditions - a gender-issue CDer (GCD?), TG and TS folk suffer similar or worse intolerance from society as any of the LGB camp, I think?

So while we may not appear to have a lot in common on the surface, I don't believe you have to go too much deeper before you realise that we might be strange bedfellows, but we are certainly in the same bed in the eyes of society... (no innuendo intended.. )

I'm happy to stand under a rainbow banner in this circumstance - so many of society think we're gay anyway, at least that's removing one minor element of dissonance in the minds of the muggles... And so what if they do...?

Katey x

[Kimberly Kael]

One thing that unites the LGBT community is that, from an outside perspective, we all violate the expectations society has for someone assigned a particular gender at birth. Who we're attracted to is one of those expectations. How we dress and what mannerisms are within the expected range is another. Our gender identity is a third. So while it's true that we don't all understand the challenges faced by others under the umbrella, the reality is that we trigger a lot of similar reactions from those not under the umbrella because we're all gender variant in one respect or another. People tend to assume that crossdressers are gay and vice-versa, and they don't understand the differences between transsexuals and drag queens. Education is in all of our interests, and the best way to make social progress is with as many allies as you can find.

I understand if anyone doesn't feel compelled to take up the cause publicly because I was leery of doing so myself when I wasn't out to anyone. I advocated for equality in abstract terms but I didn't march in Pride parades for fear of my secrets becoming even more obvious. Even so, I recognized just how much social progress was being made on my behalf. Broadening the accepted range of masculine expression eventually gave me enough freedom to explore my true identity while appearing to merely push the bounds of "metrosexual." Of course eventually the pressure built up enough for me to transition, but I appreciated not feeling the need to adopt an ultra masculine identity to compensate as so many others have.

[Alice Torn]

Like Kate, I am a lone wolf, or sheep. But, violent discrimination against any group, be they liberal, or conservative, non religious, or religious, minorities or not, is wrong. As a veteran who served my country for a little while, and a Tg Cd, i served to have a right to go out dressed, whether in a GLBT group or alone, but am not much of a big group person. Having been on both the left side of things, and on the far right side of things, in my 60 years, I am afraid there is plenty of bigotry on both extremes. I choose to be a lone sheep or wolf.

[ophelia]

What interesting responses! I've learned so much. But the comment about hairy gays in tu-tu's marching...that is so far away from my focus. On dating sites I too have reached out to lesbians, hoping for some kind of commonality which would bring us together.....not to be! What we as CD-ers should try to do is promote the reality that the desire for humans and other species to adorn themselves is perfectly normal and that it takes on so many forms. Many of us are exquistely hetero and a threat to no one. That doesn't explain my need for breast forms in my presentation, aside from the fact that they are representations of beauty and fertility.....

[kimdl93]

I do feel that I have a good deal in common with others under this particular rainbow. It's about accepting one another and celebrating our individuality, as well as speaking or acting out against repression.

[Rogina B]

The "commonality" we share is that we are uncommon. A 20 yr old TS coming out to family,is equal to a G or L person of the same age...not the norm. To the unaccepting,we are all equal. Joining in a Pride or LGBT support event,helps strengthen the number of "local,non normal" folks. lol Human Rights are basic Civil Rights and all humans are equally entitled to them.It is the strength and cohesion of the alphabet community that makes changes happen. If you don't care to be with us,at least don't go against us as that is what a bigot is all about.

[Karren J]

Great topic Ophelia

My two cents is this,

My goal while en-fem is to not to be noticed.

I freely acknowledge the LBGT community and the fantastic work they have done to push back the social boundaries, but I would rather go unnoticed and blend in. The very first step of changing society is to proclaim HERE I AM and that isn't something that I want to do. I could go into the argument of if no one tries to change things then nothing will change but that person isn't me, and I suspect by all the alias's and neck down photos (guilty!) the majority of us prize anonymity. Maybe one day we'll be accepted as we are but that day isn't today and I don't want to lead the charge.

Back to the topic though, the LBGT community is about awareness and we seem to be all about secret identities. Not the most comparable goals, but then again everyone needs friends.

[KaceyR]

Most of what I was going to write has been already addressed I think.
While I am deeper 'into the T' than most here, yes CDing is definitely under that umbrella.
But it's a situation that Not-public or occasional CDers would rather stand outside getting rained on than link themselves to the TG side under it.
And for those that don't ever go out and express their CDing in public..it's all fine.
They may not see the effects of public humiliation or discrimination happen to them.
Unless something happens to 'out' themselves-they can stay undisturbed.

But there's a bit of a bigger picture to see.
The biggest thing we face when out is embarrassment, discrimination, humiliation, and attacks by other haters and people who 'fear the abnormal' (for lack of a better phrase).
In some ways, the linking of 'T' to the LGB groups has helped. If nothing else, it's helped get the visibility of Transgender folk out there. More visibility, more commonality, and thus more possibility of people learning to accept others involved on the 'T' side.
Breaking the stupid, illogical, and hurtful stigma placed out there by the right, religion, and others that TGers are all about "bathroom attacks" and such drivel can only be done with more visibility of the Transgender condition (using one of the bigger primary arguments..and I have seen actual copies of that propaganda they give to their 'followers' to promote against a recent anti-discrimination city hall vote recently...yeesh). See more TG people out and about..you may realize were all about just expressing different, just trying to live general lives and not all hidden serial rapists. Recent popularity in TV and media has also helped that. The medical field also is catching up a bit too to the aspect of Transgender.

But the problem that happens is due to personal-level/individual experience and thought.
You can have all sorts of edicts in place, say in a medical facility to not discriminate against a TG. But while the individual nurse or doc who resents us may 'do his job' to cover that, it doesn't cover up the contempt or whatever he shows to us while we're there. A story mentioned by one girl (transitioned, non-op..not CDer but just an example) going to the clinic for a urinary issue.. They had issues trying at first to plan tests out as a normal woman would. When argued/brought up the facts..they turned it into a freak show. Getting multiple docs/nurses (all male but 1) in the room during the procedure. Then the docs going next door where she could hear them thru the thin walls talking and laughing about it all... All professionalism (In this case the treating doc's as he got the others brought in to watch the 'show') will drop to the individual's personal beliefs and issues.

Thing is.. These societal changes don't happen without being able to show visible numbers. And we're a hidden group. We have to hide to survive in the world. And also, when it comes down to society and the home... Well, even if the literal discrimination aspect were to suddenly get protected in work, in public and in society... It's still a very gradual change on personal acceptance levels. A lot of CDers deal with the fact that it's not the public "resentment" due to what they do or where they go... It's the localized in-home acceptance. Hiding it from the wife or partner and such for fear of divorce, leaving, kids, etc.
So while looking at what LGBT groups and their public advocacy as a whole does...it doesn't really help the more common CDer out.

Discussing the negative side just a touch. 'T' inclusion with the advocacy groups has been tricky.
It's a hierarchy of acceptance primarily,due to perceived numbers and other factors.
LG is a nice neat still-conforming-to-gender-binary group.
B is another group..but there's a lot of misinformation about them as well to be honest. A big constant out there is the thought "oh you're Just uncertain until you choose which side you're on (straight or gay)". Silly logic really when one really thinks hard on it (they state how sexuality is a born thing..not a choice.. Then can state there's a choice here?)
So B does have their own amounts of discrimination for the LG side as well.
But 'T' is foreign to all of these people due to gender being a whole different subject than sexuality.

And unfortunately, that aspect has allowed us (or 'T's) to become fodder for these advocacy groups.
A couple examples...ENDA... Employee non-discriminatory act. Basically.. T is added to the act which seems good to us. But then it's realized it's just included to be there for future removal as part of the 'negotiation' process to get it passed thru.
The other example.. Here in Michigan there's a similar civil rights act in place. And a bill is in to get LGBT added into the acts' coverage. There's a coalition of businesses and companies pushing for it too (yay). But again, arguments. And then talk by the CEO or somesuch of AT&T saying 'we'd be willing to pull the transgender consideration out of the requirements if that would help the bill pass'.
Kind of gave me mixed feelings as I've just preordered an Apple 6+ phone and reupped my cell plan with AT&T for another 2years... :/

So it's a very uphill battle. From the 'T' perspective...we don't have enough visible and loud numbers to push for anything ourselves as far as society and political change. We desperately need the assistance of these LGB groups to help advance laws and consideration about us. But if their inclusion of us is only as fodder....

On the aspect of localized effects mentioned by Cheryl...
I've not had bad issues with any of my bars...yet.
Have gone to gay bars... Essentially ignored for the most part. Granted these were ones for a younger crowd. But generally they are men attracted to men that look like men. So a female-looking guy gets ignored pretty much (although sometimes I think I could do better than some of those dancers... )
I've yet to get to the bar here that's more lesbian-oriented.
I've gone to another couple places however.. A bar and a club locally. The bar's co-owned/operated by a transgender girl. Nice small place...I called it a 'cheers for the unusual' Mainly as locally it kind of is a hangout for T-girls. After some time there, they'll go to the other place..a club. 2floors..drag show up top, dance club/bar below. Last time I was there..it eventually ended up packed.. I want to say 35-40% T-girls, 35-40% Lesbian, rest gay guys. Oh..and the occasional drag queen wandering around before their shows Not bad..packed dance floor. All seem to coexist well there.

But I know there are some on the Lesbian side that don't care for the 'T'. On the political front.. Women's organizations have issues internally with what is known as TERFs.. Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists. They spout some of the same drivel that hate groups does. And it's far reaching. In Michigan there was an issue with transgendered people being allowed in to a well known women's music show.. And it's all because of the directors' orders and TERF comments. Some bands pulled out of the show due to this. TG women aren't "womyn born womyn" in their thought. So they push this exclusivity aspect onto other women and continue the hate against Transgender.

I realize this continues beyond standard CD talk. But it summarizes the interaction of that global TG umbrella and the rest of these people. There's a long way to go before transgendered are accepted as human beings even instead of subhuman (as it seems today). Gonna take a real big shift in thought to make it happen. Slowly it is. It's also generational...recent couple of generations have grown up with a lot more open-mindedness and tolerance than most. Problem nowadays to me is that it's not the open-minded people that are in places of power (government,etc). Again, that's a numbers thing.. Just couldn't make much of a difference politics-wise I don't think if we started a "Rock the CDer Vote" campaign. But it'd be fun to see the ads

[ophelia]

So now I'm understanding my position better.
On my outings I want to be seen more and more as a lovely lady. That is kind of like standing out and blending in at the same time.
The LGBT Rainbow is about being accepted while standing out.
We a CD's benefit from their work, and that's good for us.

[Krisi]

No, a "crossdresser" is not necessarily "transgender". Many, perhaps most crossdressers are heterosexual males with no wish that they had been born female, no desire to transition and no desire to have secual relations with other men.

A "crossdresser" is a male who wears female clothing and accessories from time to time. That's all.

And like some others, I don't feel I have anything in common with LGBT organizations, nor if I were going out to a bar would I pick a lesbian or gay bar.

[devida]

What is the problem with cross dressers disliking being termed transgender? Being transgender certainly does not mean that you have to transition or are even interested in transition, it just means that you sometimes present or identify as a gender other than that assigned to you at birth. Folks, this isn't a difficult definition to understand yet every time this topic comes up one or more posters associates transgender with transitioning. Men or women transitioning to another sex are transexuals who are, by the way, a sub group of the transgender community just like cross dressers are. Being transgender says nothing about your sexual orientation, or even what's between your legs.

I'm thinking this is a not too disguised form of homophobia. Like - I couldn't be transgender because that would mean I'm like those gays and lesbians when all I am is a red blooded American male who likes to wear women's clothes.

Let me warn everyone who imagines that not being gay or lesbian but liking to present as another gender will somehow offer a protection against discrimination. Generally defeated by the increasing social acceptance of gays and lesbians the bigots have found a new target - the transgendered, a category to which, believe me, the bigots regard cross dressing heterosexual males as belonging

Don't take my word about the definition of transgender. Read the definition that cross dressers.com provides. There the definition states that being transgender just means that your gender identity varies (in different degrees with different individuals) from the gender you were defined as having at birth. I do not understand how a man, straight or not, dressing in women's clothes does not meet the standards of that definition.

[mariehart]

Kacey's post is very interesting.

I don't get involved with LGBT groups either although I qualify under B and T. I'm not a joiner at all and I don't wear badges or ribbons supporting any cause. I keep meaning to go and see the pride parade in this town but haven't yet.

I do support the idea of it though. Any kind of advocacy group can only be a good thing.

[Jannis]

I support the LGBT groups quietly from the sidelines. They are taking the struggle to the public at large in a very visible way. We are all looking for recognition and acceptance, but in not so much of a public display. I am reminded by a quote from a famous general that" quiet warriors build empires." We can support each other, but don't stop seeking our goals.

[MsVal]

I'm still pretty new to the realization that I am transgendered and still finding my way. However my bucket list includes going about my daily stuff without regard to the clothing I wear. While out, some people may detect that I am a man in woman's clothing, and that is okay. That's my point. I want to be one more CD ambassador. That will be my little contribution toward normalization of our shared desire.

As far as organized groups, they are the ones the mainstream media call when they need information. They are the ones that provide education and support for LGBT persons and their loved ones. (One of my local groups is hosting a health fair.) For the general public, these groups, not the occasional individuals, are the face of LGBT issues.

I will find a group whose work I endorse and will support them. It may involve writing a check, set up / tear down at an event, or some other low-key support activity.