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Thread: Consciously acting female

  1. #1
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    Consciously acting female

    I was reading something recently that talked about gender perception by people we meet. I don't know specifically where the theory came from but the author proposed that most people on initially meeting someone subconsciously assign them a gender based on various mostly physical clues that the individual is giving e.g. hair length, breasts, facial hair, clothing style, voice. These clues are then subconsciously categorised into a "gender template" that informs our initial response and determination of someones gender.

    All this is fairly obvious to all of you on this forum but what I found interesting was that the author then went on to theorise that once a "gender template" had been filled, and most people only have a binary gender template i.e. male or female, anything incongruous with that gender template e.g. obvious breasts on someone with a beard, dressed in mens clothes with short crew cut hair, then is used to inform the persons assessment of the "authenticity" of the individual. Thus the individual described above is regarded by most people as having some question mark over their trustworthiness, at least until other factors affect our assessment of that trustworthiness.

    What I am curious about is how many of you have made specific efforts to adopt stereotypical female associated gender behaviours in order to be perceived as more "authentically" female by the general public? Pursuant to this question I also ask do you find this necessity to adopt what are essentially socially constructed stereotypes to be somewhat grating and do you not worry that you end up reinforcing a stereotype that has been used to discriminate against you your whole life?

  2. #2
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    I initially studied this a lot. Learned a lot that was good and a lot that was wrong. Eventually I just learned to be natural and be me. I just dropped the man.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

  3. #3
    Silver Member Starling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Campbell View Post
    ...I just learned to be natural and be me. I just dropped the man.
    Amen, Angela. I don't believe there is such a thing as "female behavior," but only the behavior of individuals. To self-consciously attempt to "act like a woman" feels forced and uncomfortable, to oneself and to others, just as exaggerated mannerisms do in females-at-birth. It's simply bad acting, a counterproductive means to compensate for perceived failings in presentation.

    Lallie
    Time for a change.

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    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    Yes although there are things to learn. It begins with a conscience effort to make yourself smaller. Men try to take up a lot of space, women do not. Arms in, legs together smooth movements. I see so many who are transitioning that walk like a guy and that is a huge tell.

    Voice is another one to work very hard on. Also how to use less makeup. How to dress appropriately, There is a lot to learn but it takes getting out there to do it.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Campbell View Post
    Yes although there are things to learn. It begins with a conscience effort to make yourself smaller. Men try to take up a lot of space, women do not. Arms in, legs together smooth movements. I see so many who are transitioning that walk like a guy and that is a huge tell.
    I do not doubt it. But how do you respond to my second question? i.e. Does it not concern you that you are reinforcing socially constructed gender stereotypes that in the past have been used to discriminate against you?

  6. #6
    Silver Member I Am Paula's Avatar
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    We do learn SOME female behavior, but the vast majority of it is already in us. We were born women after all. Stereotypes, I don't think so. Men and women use their space on earth differently. Period.
    A TS woman does not 'act' feminine, she just is.

  7. #7
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
    I do not doubt it. But how do you respond to my second question? i.e. Does it not concern you that you are reinforcing socially constructed gender stereotypes that in the past have been used to discriminate against you?
    Actually many of us end up deeply invested in our binary gender..

    You see Adina being true to yourself is what's important...

    There can be a reasonable debate about what socially constructed gender stereotypes are and what are their impact...pros and cons....
    but why on earth would it bother me to express my true gender...

    what exactly do you think I should be concerned about?

    should I not work walk a "certain way" so as not to reinforce some nebulous theoretical damage having to do with socially constructed gender stereotypes.? nope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I Am Paula View Post
    We do learn SOME female behavior, but the vast majority of it is already in us. We were born women after all. Stereotypes, I don't think so. Men and women use their space on earth differently. Period.
    A TS woman does not 'act' feminine, she just is.
    I was thinking this myself, there is definitely stuff to unlearn but most of it comes naturally and it's about letting go and just being. To have to put on an act would make me question what would be the point of Transition? There will need to be some changes as we would have naturally picked up male traits because of growing up in a masculine role, with male friends etc.
    It's hard to say as we are all different, a friend of mine who believes she may transition. Walks like a man, postures like a man, takes up space like a man and generally has a mans energy, is she a true TS? I have no idea really, only time will tell.

  9. #9
    In transmission whowhatwhen's Avatar
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    For me it was letting go of consciously emulating male behaviours, however that doesn't mean that there aren't any subconscious ones going on.
    I decided that I was not ever going to force any behaviours because **** it I'm done with that.

    I figure I'm more likely going to be read male by my facial features and body than any mannerisms.

  10. #10
    Silver Member DebbieL's Avatar
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    When I was a kid I couldn't hide the girl, and I caught heck for it. My parents were loving and kind, but the boys at school were merciless.
    They made fun of how I sat, how I ate, how I talked, how I walked, how I held my hands, how I laughed, how I cried.
    Often, the consequences for being to "Sissy" were pretty severe. Nothing like laying on the ground while 10-15 boys kick you everywhere covered by clothes for 30 minutes to make you make some attempt to "hide the girl", but she was in there.

    Many people thought I was gay because I was so naturally feminine even when I tried to hide it.

    When I started RLE, it was amazing how little had to be "learned". There were a few things I was encouraged to try and a few habits I had to break, but for the most part, at was just me coming out naturally. I'd say the things I had to actually "learn" were things that little girls often have to learn too, like not plopping into a chair. When I wear pants I sometimes slip into figure 4, but in a skirt, if I want to sit with my leg up, I tuck the crossed leg under my other leg instead of over, I usually do that as a guy and get grief for it, but as a girl, it's not as graceful as I should be, but naturally feminine, like a young girl would do.

    When I read books that discussed the things girls do differently, I was surprised at how often I had just been doing that naturally all my life.

    I finally realize why I had so much trouble passing as a man. :-D
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    I'm with many of the others. Letting go of learned and controlled mannerisms is key. That's not to dismiss picking up behavior patterns that might help you pass, but I look at picking up any new behaviors as more a matter of etiquette - the goal isn't to replace one type of artificiality with another.

    Letting go can be difficult as control and protect instinct becomes very ingrained. It doesn't take much to remind you of its strength. I get the occasional correction even today, and it still hits hard.
    Lea

  12. #12
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
    I do not doubt it. But how do you respond to my second question? i.e. Does it not concern you that you are reinforcing socially constructed gender stereotypes that in the past have been used to discriminate against you?
    I reinforce no stereotypes. I am a woman and I do many things differently than a man. I don't go around worrying about being discrimated against. I will be and always have been. Face it women are different, but not all the same way.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

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    The gender stereotype reinforcement point comes up in a lot of feminist literature when talking about trans women. There's truth to the accusation, although there are a variety of reasons, most of which result in unintended stereotype reinforcement. It can be a simple as intentionally going a little overboard to compensate for male cues, for example. The intention isn't to reinforce a stereotype, but it's easy to pick on whatever the action was - too much makeup, frilly dressing, the walk or talk, ... whatever. That said, I occasionally see something pretty egregious, and read a lot of stuff (including here) that has me wondering about some people and their motivations. The gender community can be a pretty strange place at times.
    Lea

  14. #14
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Gender is entirely a social construct. There is nothing innate about gender. It is a socially constructed norm used to oppress women. Everything that is "feminine" is a constructed norm, the entire concept of "beauty" that we confront as women daily is a constructed norm. Gender differences are are a constructed norm. All of these are used to re-inforce role compliant behavior. For this reason they are learned behaviors not anything innate.

    Read feminist thought. Read about male privilege, and for God's sake don't take up so much space.
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  15. #15
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    But those social constructs evolved from something. Gender has differences even in animals
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    Gender is entirely a social construct. There is nothing innate about gender. It is a socially constructed norm used to oppress women. Everything that is "feminine" is a constructed norm, the entire concept of "beauty" that we confront as women daily is a constructed norm. Gender differences are are a constructed norm. All of these are used to re-inforce role compliant behavior. For this reason they are learned behaviors not anything innate.

    Read feminist thought. Read about male privilege, and for God's sake don't take up so much space.
    Well said!

    Adina to answer your questions, the TSs that I know do not reinforce the feminine stereotypes any more than GGs do … keeping in mind that my friends are my age and with life experience comes confidence and a lesser need to make a statement about femininity. It is my experience that younger women reinforce the stereotypes more than older ones and they do this during the mating and reproducing stages of their lives. Ultra-femininity is useful for this.
    Last edited by ReineD; 10-04-2014 at 02:15 AM.
    Reine

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    Silver Member Starling's Avatar
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    I agree that many of us consciously--if imperfectly--mimicked stereotyped male behavior, in order to avoid getting the crap beaten out of us; and that a huge part of becoming oneself is merely dropping the pretense. Despite my most rigorous self-policing, though, I unconsciously crossed my leg under rather than over, put my hands on my hips, reclined with my legs out to one side, slightly bent, while leaning on my hand and I'm sure made gestures that were definitely not "male." Had I been able to cross my too-short legs at the knee and curled one foot behind the other calf, I know I would have done it. And I learned long ago how to be small, to yield to larger vessels.

    I'm trying even now, when I'm not full-time, to maintain my physical honesty and shine on the stares.

    Lallie
    Time for a change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    Read feminist thought. Read about male privilege, and for God's sake don't take up so much space.
    I'm not sure if you were directing this to me Kathryn but if you were I think it is a little harsh. Reread my OP and I think you will find I have absolutely no argument with you that gender is a social construct. And yes, I have and continue to read feminist thought. Yes I understand about male privilege. Thats why I'm asking doesn't it concern you that you're, albeit as Lea points out unintentionally, reinforcing social prejudices?

  19. #19
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    To be female is to reinforce misogyny. It just is. Men who will judge us for simply being female aren't going to change if we act like men.

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    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Adina this was not at all directed at you but more of a general comment .....

    April, isn't that blaming women for the misogyny they experience at the hands of men?
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  21. #21
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    This whole thread seems to be about blaming women for behaving like a female. Even to the extent that some members who pint out that they are just behaving naturally were accused of
    Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
    reinforcing socially constructed gender stereotypes
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 10-04-2014 at 09:47 AM.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post

    April, isn't that blaming women for the misogyny they experience at the hands of men?
    I can see how my comment might be taken that way but my point was misogynistic men hate women simply for existing. It wouldn't matter what a woman did or did not do, these men believe women are inferior. I believe Adina, perhaps unwittingly, has suggested that being feminine is something to be avoided if one to be taken seriously. Men (and quite a few women too) need to learn that just because women are different than men that does not make us inferior

  23. #23
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Right...I can't speak to the intent of the OP but I can guess
    ...I can say for certain that the last paragraph frames the point in a very negative way

    " I also ask do you find this necessity to adopt what are essentially socially constructed stereotypes to be somewhat grating and do you not worry that you end up reinforcing a stereotype "

    It implies that consciously trying to unwind learned behaviors and being more feminine is somehow perpetuating a horrible state of affairs..its ridiculous.

    As if crossing my legs a certain way or wearing makeup is nothing more than subjugating myself to evil men that dominate and oppress us...


    The whole thing is silly and boring and i'm surprised you are all falling for it..

  24. #24
    Gone
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    This is exactly how it was for me as well. I liken it to taking off a man suit, that was cut in such a manner that it restricted my movements to those of "male". Once I quit getting up in the morning and putting on the suit, times of being misgendered went way down and now I never even think about my movement or whether I am 'doing woman' correctly. Of course I am, I am one.

  25. #25
    Silver Member Starling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thea Pauline View Post
    ...Once I quit getting up in the morning and putting on the suit...I never even think about my movement or whether I am 'doing woman' correctly...
    This is a powerful point. The different things that women do and the clothes they wear; the shape of their bodies, breasts which get in the way; having longer hair and (especially) nails; the amount of time it takes to perform personal hygiene and grooming; having stuff on your face and lips that requires frequent attention: all these bring forth ways of acting and moving and, thence, of thinking and feeling as well. And it all becomes second nature, rather than studied or self-conscious. Not that all women are just the same, of course, but there are enough commonalities in the female quotidium* to assert a kind of general, overall effect of femaleness that is not stereotypical.

    Lallie

    *neologism warning
    Time for a change.

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