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Thread: Consciously acting female

  1. #26
    Senior Member KellyJameson's Avatar
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    I think this is a good conversation. My compliments to you Adina.

    Gender comes out of are sexual differentiation. if there were not two sexes making everyone 'sexless" there would be no such thing as gender.

    Gender needs contrasts because it is based on measurements just as sexual differentiation is.

    There is a sexual binary created by nature that human beings have built on that they refer to as gender and gender roles. Gender binary as an extension of the sexual binary.

    The gender binary is largely about sex and sexual relations which is why transsexuals are viewed as so threatening (abnormal)

    If you believe as I do that transsexuals are created by nature and not as a social human construct than you look for your gender within nature and than by extension into the human social sphere.

    Anyone can call themselves transgendered or transsexual and it is very possible to transition and not be a transsexual. Changing the outside will not change the physical brain to a degree great enough to change the physical experience and expression of gender. (sexual differentiation of the brain)

    Gender is cut into you somewhere between when egg meets sperm and in the first years of life when the brain is still organizing itself but the template was laid in the womb and probably genetically influenced.

    Transsexuals are born regardless of transitioning.

    Transitioning does not make you a woman but only allows you to live as you already are.

    It feels very much like a "becoming" because what is inside is allowed to bloom. Much like a seed holds its potential inside but needs the right environment to bring it forth.

    You can breath when before you were choking. Things now feel natural.

    Transitioning takes where nature stopped that affects how the transsexual can live and extends it.

    It is shaping the external to conform to the internal. Modern medicine simply takes what transsexuals have been doing since the beginning "farther" but people have always shaped the outside to reflect the inside as they are "compelled" to do

    I have found that the binary becomes almost meaningless once you transition but beforehand it is all you focus on as a part of the complusion to understand gender from living outside it.

    I have also found I think far less about being perceived "authentically" because I am. It is when you are not that you are compelled to "be perceived as such"

    I can see it in how I dress which is largely jean jacket, jeans and boots. I have a closet full of skirts but would only wear them for a reason other than "gender".

    I think there is a tension carried inside to be perceived as you know yourself to be (authentically) and the distance you are removed from this experience by others.

    This can create a type of fanaticism from the frantic need to be perceived and the fear you will not be and partly why some transsexuals are so militant.

    This militancy is largely absent from those who transition and are able to go stealth. They have no need for it.

    I do not consciously "act female" nor am I militant. There is no need for it.

    Speaking to misogyny males are socialized "to not be females" because to be female is to be weak and "less than" males. Females are "pathetic" because they have no "power" and "resented" when they do.

    Misogyny is a form of projection where the male rejects those unwanted "weak" parts of himself onto the female which he than "hates" (as hating her) but they are actually the parts of himself he hates from being immersed in the collective hate of women by men.

    These men are very dangerous to transsexuals because they represent "failure" to men "to be men" which is something many men are terrified by.

    Sex/children make women dangerous to men making her even easier to hate when he is already filled with hate for himself as that which is represented in her.

    Hate is always personal.
    Last edited by KellyJameson; 10-04-2014 at 02:00 PM.
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  2. #27
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyJameson View Post
    Gender binary as an extension of the sexual binary.
    Kelly, I would disagree with you on this point. The gender binary with all it's attributes is a socially constructed re-inforcement mechanism of a male interpretation of the sex binary not it's extension. There is no rational connection in substance between biological sex and the gendered society we live in.

    Oh I just came across this:

    Gender is defined by the World Health Organisation as “the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women”.
    Last edited by Kathryn Martin; 10-04-2014 at 02:20 PM.
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  3. #28
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    If there was no difference between the sexes and the way they behave it wouldn't have evolved this way. It seems.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

  4. #29
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    There is a significant difference between the sexes, just look at the whole reproductive organization and the hormonal organization. Just don't believe that the social constructs of gender have anything to do with those differences. They are an interpretation of of the differences which enforce compliance with power dynamics.
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  5. #30
    Platinum Member Eryn's Avatar
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    I think that most TG people initially try to emulate, in a rough fashion, feminine behavior. We consciously try to walk, talk, and use gestures as females do.

    Much of this is learned behavior for GGs as they grow up. They were taught to "act feminine" by their parents and peers. We get the short, self-study course.

    TG folks, as we gain experience, also fall into this model. We learn though many interactions, observations, and trial-and-error how women act in a wide range of situations and naturally act as is expected of us.

    There is no one way to act, though. Some GGs cuss like sailors and others are prim and proper. Eventually we learn enough to "be ourselves" and exist comfortably with our current reality.
    Eryn
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  6. #31
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    April, as always direct and to the point. I think you are correct in that, most certainly unwittingly, I have perhaps implied that being feminine is somehow a negative reflection on the individual. It should not be. That was definitely not my intent. Your last comment "Men need to learn that just because women are different from men does not make us inferior" is a good reminder to me to make sure I don't fall into that mistake.

    Rianna, my intent was not to blame women for being women at all. If, as Kathryn suggests, gender is a social construct and we learn socially appropriate gender markers and behaviour, then at some stage for the TS individual they must be unlearned and socially appropriate gender markers for their target gender must replace them. What is natural behaviour? Who decides what behaving like a female is?

    Kathryn and Kelly, your points about the connections (or lack there of) between physiologic sex and gender I think are really interesting. Certainly one can make arguments for social gender definitions based on physiologic sex e.g. men are more aggressive and more driven because of testosterone is the obvious one, but as Kathryn points out, are these immutable links or are they variable? Whilst it is not possible for men to bear children they can certainly feed and care for them once they are born, a role at one point in time thought exclusively physiologically only viable for physiologic females. Should physiologic sex have ANY bearing on social gender? Is it possible to create a genderless society?

  7. #32
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    There is a significant difference between the sexes, just look at the whole reproductive organization and the hormonal organization. Just don't believe that the social constructs of gender have anything to do with those differences. They are an interpretation of of the differences which enforce compliance with power dynamics.
    There's much more to it than that. There is the level of aggression, the tendency towards nurturing, physical strength (on average) the tendancies to work in groups or to compete, there is much more to it. There have been differences in the behaviors of the two sexes from the beginning. It takes place in the animal world as well when the mother behaves one way while the male behaves in a different way. This is not from social constructs.
    However we have taken it to a much refined level.
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  8. #33
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    I agree, Angela. The particulars of the expression may be cultural (which I think better than "constructed"), but the drive to express differently is not. It is also true that many of those particulars are oppressive.
    Lea

  9. #34
    Silver Member DebbieL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaP View Post
    I agree, Angela. The particulars of the expression may be cultural (which I think better than "constructed"), but the drive to express differently is not. It is also true that many of those particulars are oppressive.
    Some of our gender expressions are natural, a part of our evolution. Many traits are designed to help women bare, raise, and protect her children, as well as keep a man who functions as protector and provider.

    Many gender traits of men are the product of centuries of war. The weak and timid would be killed in the first few minutes of a battle, while the alpha males would fight, survive, and come home to not just one, but often many wives.

    But in the last 200 years something changed. Rifles, machine guns, and cannon could cause the deaths of hundred in minutes. In the United States, the Civil War killed much of the alpha male population. World War 1 killed more, followed by the Spanish flu, Scarlet fever and Polio, and the Great Depression. Those who survived had children who fought in WW-II which killed millions more soldiers with alpha male tendencies.

    Because the 4-Fs were kept home, they survived and went on to have children of their own. Perhaps this was an important part of our evolution, especially since we now had the power to make war in ways that could kill everyone on the entire planet. Even in WW-II, the decisive elements were technologies developed by gays, transgenders, and women - programs such as MI-6 and cracking the Enigma.

    Perhaps this is one of the reasons why we are seeing an increase in the number of men who are transgender, as well as increased acceptance of transgender males.
    Last edited by DebbieL; 10-04-2014 at 11:16 PM.
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  10. #35
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Campbell View Post
    There's much more to it than that. There is the level of aggression, the tendency towards nurturing, physical strength (on average) the tendancies to work in groups or to compete, there is much more to it. There have been differences in the behaviors of the two sexes from the beginning. It takes place in the animal world as well when the mother behaves one way while the male behaves in a different way. This is not from social constructs.
    However we have taken it to a much refined level.
    All of the examples that you have given, including what you say about the animal kingdom is sex based behavior. This has nothing to do with the social construct of gender as we find it in society. When is the last time an animal got shamed for these:

    peroids - shame
    masturbation - shame
    body shape or size - shame
    enjoying sex - shame
    not enjoying sex - shame
    wearing dowdy clothing - shame
    wearing sexy clothing - shame
    not having the same strength - shame

    I could go on and on. And these are just examples. None of these and the many other ways in which oppression because of gender norms happens are in any way a direct outflow of sex differentiation between the sexes.
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  11. #36
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
    I'm not sure if you were directing this to me Kathryn but if you were I think it is a little harsh. Reread my OP and I think you will find I have absolutely no argument with you that gender is a social construct. And yes, I have and continue to read feminist thought. Yes I understand about male privilege. Thats why I'm asking doesn't it concern you that you're, albeit as Lea points out unintentionally, reinforcing social prejudices?
    I would tend to disagree. All those things are the results of the differences between the sexes. Yes gender does seem to result in discrimination, but it is not totally a construct.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

  12. #37
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    I recall earlier this year Kathryn you made a comment about women over 50 with long hair being appalling...I remember it well because i'm 52 and my hair is plenty long (as an aside, I am apparently NOT very invisible to men even tho i'm 50+)...and we kidded each other over it.....

    anyway... we all communicate in a social way and our language and behavior is gendered. This is always and forever.
    However, there is no need, nor would I desire there to be a genderless society.. And there never will be a genderless society.

    That's because gender is more than a social construct...its the number one fundamental principal of organization and communication for human beings...its in everything
    and in my opinion, separating sex and gender with too sharp a line is an intellectual exercise that can spur an intellectual debate.
    However even though there is gender and sex...and its mostly social and its biological.. but they are deeply intertwined ..

    Adina mentioned child birth and babies...its a nice sentiment...and actually lots of dads care about their babies and take wonderful care of them
    ...but a mothers love is so much more than a social construct and almost everybody knows this because its real, and it has nothing to do with socially created constructs to subjugate women...

    Maybe most importantly, arguing that gender stands alone ignores the biological reality that these social constructs are created by two groups that are fundamentally biologically driven..one leads to the other
    ...imagine arguing that gravity is different than a ball falling to the ground everytime... they are different but the ball would not fall without gravity... we can talk about the ball, but gravity is the driving force... and when we see that ball fall we all intuitively know that gravity makes it happen..


    It's true that some social stereotypes make many women feel ashamed ... this is well, a shame. and its something worth changing and it is changing...btw..its interesting to me that much of the recent narrative in this regard is sadly about victimhood and not empowerment.. the recent focus on domestic violence and the so called war on women seems misguided and negative to me....don't hurt me, don't rape me is a lot different than i am woman hear me roar... but it does reflect the biological reality of strength and aggression... should we take strength and aggression out of life?? what then of being a man?...should we take the testosterone out of their bodies?? take the fight out of them??


    It's interesting because I feel alot of shame that has resulted in a negative impact on my life...my own shame is about being socially raised as a boy and breaking all the rules of what manhood should be...so i do get that social constructs can create shame..
    but complicating this was 40 years of testosterone inside me...it was a biological reality that i had these "social" feelings that conflicted with my gender (or as professors would say my sex)

    I love wearing my hair long..i enjoy making myself up at times.. i have certainly (consciously at first) changed the way i carry myself in walking and sitting.. i am 6'2 and i have made myself "small" many times because it feels right to me...
    i feel no shame about this..it does not grate on me... perhaps that's because i never learned to be socially shamed as female.

  13. #38
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    If being feminine is socially constructed by men, then in theory its learned behavior?
    Having been brought up as a man, influenced by men and given all the privilege how come it was all so alien to me? I grew up trying to fit in and be the man, so I should have been masculine in nature by virtue of being taught to be masculine?

    My Nephew from early on has always been a boy, he has an older very girly sister and his parents do not conform to gender stereotyping. So why is it he has a deep dislike for anything female, is dominating, always playing aggressive games and generally naturally stamps his male authority on any situation. He never learned this it was there from the beginning.

    I've always crossed my legs as that's comfortable for me, is that a feminine stereotype?
    I love a get together and chat with the girls and totally switch off with any conversation about cars or sports etc. I have never been interested in that even when I tried hard to like those things to fit in, again am I stereotyping or just being myself?
    Personally I think this part of the thread is utter rubbish, just be yourself.

    My older niece when she was young adored everything pink and Barbie dolls, she was a typical girly girl and I'm pretty sure at that time she wasn't thinking "I must show I'm liking dolls so I can conform to a female stereotype". She got to the age of 9 and overnight was bored of Barbie and suddenly preferred purple. It's just personal preference

    Now what was stereotyping was my parents taking me away from my friend, because we played with dolls together. THAT was natural to me, making me feel like a freak and having to pretend to like boys stuff wasn't. What colour we wear as a child and what toys we should play with is socially constructed,

    Where I think your point is valid is in attraction. I like makeup and looking in a way that is attractive to men, because I want to be attractive to men. Is that socially constructed, yes. But I didn't make the rules so I'm not going to purposely dress like a slob just to prove some feminist point. You live your life how you want to and I will live mine how I like.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    Gender is entirely a social construct. There is nothing innate about gender. It is a socially constructed norm used to oppress women. Everything that is "feminine" is a constructed norm, the entire concept of "beauty" that we confront as women daily is a constructed norm. Gender differences are are a constructed norm. All of these are used to re-inforce role compliant behavior. For this reason they are learned behaviors not anything innate.

    Read feminist thought. Read about male privilege, and for God's sake don't take up so much space.
    Good lord Kathryn! One could also stipulate that gender constructs are used to signify sexual function to possible mates. Biology is stronger than intellectual analysis. Careful about making assertions. Isn't "not taking space" a construct too? As a trans person, you should know that gender in the sense of sexual identity (man or woman) is not a construct, otherwise, you would have not transitioned. Feminism, especially the second and third wave, seems to about exploiting false information (John Mooney's studies) and creating a victimization mirage that grants unfair entitlement.
    Last edited by Frances; 10-05-2014 at 03:51 PM.

  15. #40
    Senior Member KellyJameson's Avatar
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    "Is it possible to create a genderless society?" No and it is because of sex.

    Gender is about perception. How we want to be perceived.

    As Reine mentioned, procreation influences stereotypical behavior. In that example perception is about attraction because of the forces of procreation.

    Understand how you want to be perceived and WHY concerning your gender presentation and you not only understand your gender identity but equally important, your values.

    An example is breast augmentation. I would never do this because it would cause a conflict with both my body image that supports my gender identity and my values.

    My body image is very exacting in that I have always envisioned myself as small busted because I have a slender frame. Slender woman with large breasts appear unnatural to me.

    My values also affect how I want to be perceived. I have a genuine concern about appearing like a bimbo (stupid) or trashy and this was learned by how I have watch people treat women like this. This concern folds back into my gender identity which is all encompassing.

    It is not only being perceived as a woman that is important but equally important " what kind of woman". I cannot overemphasize how important this is to me.

    I'm very sensitive to tone of voice and when I hear someone talking down to me and being condescending I become angry. I'm also uncomfortable with being treated as a sexual object unless this is blended with genuine love and respect.

    Needless to say I'm a difficult person to have a relationship with.

    Because of my values and how they influence how I want to be perceived I doubt that I contribute much to gender sterotypes "as how I understand them"

    I don't think in terms of patriarchy/ matriarchy as men oppressing woman probably because I have never seen women as being victims and since I have never identified as male I have no male guilt or feel any responsibility for their "supposed oppression".

    I also do not have the emotional need to prove I'm a woman by taking up their causes. I believe in protection for everyone by everyone.

    Control/abuse mainly happens at an individual level and abuse is tolerated at a societal level, made up of individuals. I see concepts like patriarchy/ matriarchy used to influence individuals but I'm suspicious of many of the reasons this is done.

    To often evil is done in the name of good.

    here is a link you may find interesting Adina http://www.academia.edu/2216281/Woul...t_it_look_like
    Last edited by KellyJameson; 10-05-2014 at 12:02 PM.
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  16. #41
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    As a trans person, you should know that gender in the sense of sexual identity (man or woman) is not a construct, otherwise, you would have not transitioned.
    I transitioned because my sexual identity was not congruous with my biological reproductive organization.


    I also do not have the emotional need to prove I'm a woman by taking up their causes.
    Interesting that you should use this as an example. It is a classic shaming tactic to have women "prove" that they are equal to men. The implication of your comment is that I might have to prove something because I have feminist view of the world. I work in a very conservative profession that is ruled by older white men, a judicial system that is still ruled by older white men, which grew out of juristic world view in which women were property and did not have the right to vote. The institutions of oppression of women which evolved in that system are still built into the system despite everything that has happened since those times. I typical example is that women are treated more favorably in the Courts with respect to child custody because of the notion that "mothers love" is considered beyond reproach, un-attackable, and worth more than a fathers love, or for that matter a trans woman's love (in that order). Courts will routinely prefer mothers even in the face of evidence that it is not in the best interest of a child. The wrongness of such a judicial is apparent when you consider that it has grown out of the notion that women should tend to home an hearth, birth and children while men are the providers and protectors. It is an expression of control and abuse of a social level. And society (ruled by men) has made it stick because in the end women always live in fear of violence precisely because from a brute strength point of view they will always be subdued, physically, economically, socially and politically. Where do you think feminism of any wave comes from.

    Kaitelyn, I wanted to address two things: firstly, if a young woman, trans or not, dresses provocatively she is either **** shamed, or seen as a free for all. Young boys believe that a 14 year old who has grown big boobs overnight are easy or a ****. This is how we still teach our boys to behave. Mens jokes about tits make sure of that. This is not negativity or victimization it's a fact of life. Secondly, that something is stereotypical such as long hair or makeup does not mean that anyone should not have long hair or makeup. I have a perm now (see avatar) and I wear makeup daily to work. Remember I have always said that one of the cornerstones of my transition was to make sure my appearance did not become a distraction to my work. Playing by the rules of a gendered world does not mean I have to be blind to it's mechanisms.
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  17. #42
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    It seems to me that your reproductive organization is mostly not that which is congruent.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

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    To get back on topic, transition allowed me to act like myself and not stand out anymore. No affectations or training required.

  19. #44
    Silver Member DebbieL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    To get back on topic, transition allowed me to act like myself and not stand out anymore. No affectations or training required.
    That pretty much describes it for me too.
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  20. #45
    Platinum Member Eryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beth-Lock View Post
    Carrying a purse or anything that looks like it, as a man, will certainly single you out, (as effeminate and most likely cause others to assume you are gay or a "pervert" - to quote a heckler I ran into personally -- rather than trans)
    I'll nit-pick on this one. I've carried a purse for years in male mode and, except for a couple of isolated (and innocuous) comments from friends, have heard absolutely nothing about it. Quite a lot of men these days carry some form of bag to haul around our technology.

    If one has the misfortune to acquire a heckler a purse might draw their attention but if there were no purse they'd find something else to go on about.
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  21. #46
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    yep ...what Frances said...in both posts...

    ......

    Kathryn I don't take issue with the idea that gender conventions/constructs can be imposed on people, and they impact people sometimes very negatively...usually one group is favored over the other depending on the situation.

    ...

    The distinction I was making is that biological sex is very much operative in constructing gender norms..
    Social norms would not be constructed without a biological impetus...these accepted norms didn't grow from nothing..
    They grew out of "how men are" and "how women are"...

    Its not that a mother's love is always beyond reproach, its that mothers are biologically more driven to care for their child....it is indisputable..
    and because of that society grew to expect mom's to take care of their kids for better or worse
    ...the complaint that a woman is more shamed than a man if they ignore their child stems as much from the biological drives of each
    ... remember you must accept the shame to be shamed..

    There is the stereotype of baby momma's and deadbeat dads...deadbeat moms are rare...baby daddy's are rare... that's not a construct...its never ok to leave your kid to fend for themselves when they are little..
    but I'd bet it all that the first mom took better care of her first baby.. the constructs grew from that ...not the other way around..

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    ...

    The distinction I was making is that biological sex is very much operative in constructing gender norms..
    Social norms would not be constructed without a biological impetus...these accepted norms didn't grow from nothing..
    They grew out of "how men are" and "how women are"...
    Exactly. The details are cultural (better than "constructed") but the drive toward differentiated expression has a strong natural component. In the main, people align along gender lines in whatever form they happen to take. What makes a TS different is that there is a change involved. The question is what s/he is aligning to and why.
    Lea

  23. #48
    Member devida's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    Gender is entirely a social construct. There is nothing innate about gender. It is a socially constructed norm used to oppress women. Everything that is "feminine" is a constructed norm, the entire concept of "beauty" that we confront as women daily is a constructed norm. Gender differences are are a constructed norm. All of these are used to re-inforce role compliant behavior. For this reason they are learned behaviors not anything innate.

    Read feminist thought. Read about male privilege, and for God's sake don't take up so much space.
    Gender is not only socially constructed to oppress women but also to force compliance on men. Since the ideal gender template, constantly culturally reinforced, is the extreme of gender presentation - the supremely macho aggressive male, the submissive physically weak female - most people in modern society suffer low level or greater anxiety about their gender identity and presentation. This low level anxiety is very useful to social institutions (advertising, mass media, consumer corporations etc., etc.) that make their living from exploiting gender anxiety. A slight cultural improvement appears to be the retreat of governmental institutions from the gender policing that was the norm until a very few years ago and still persists today although less and less on national and international levels. A skeptic might argue that governments have just outsourced this policing to other institutions.

    My feeling is that the only way to negotiate the problem of reinforcing gender discrimination through adopting stereotyped gender behavior is by becoming aware of the difference between the way people actually are and the way in which these social institutions say that people should look and behave. Neither men nor women in the population at large look like or act like the gender stereotypes that are continuously pushed at us through the media, consumer corporations, and other powerful institutions. Human beings are all shapes and behave in all kinds of different ways. That is the reality. What is presented to us by the social institutions and what may be reflexively and coercively supported by people who do not pay attention to the diversity of human beings is just a fantasy, designed to sell us stuff, keep us from complaining, and keep us in our place.

  24. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,336
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    And society (ruled by men) has made it stick because in the end women always live in fear of violence precisely because from a brute strength point of view they will always be subdued, physically, economically, socially and politically. ......
    Playing by the rules of a gendered world does not mean I have to be blind to it's mechanisms.
    It also doesn't mean that those things are right either? Surely we should fight for what is right, not just for what works for us?

    Yes , yes, I know, I'm not going to accuse any of you of "not doing enough" for trans or womens rights. Everyone gets to choose what is the best approach for them. Sometimes though I do wonder though whilst it might be the best thing for ourselves to just blend and fit in, comply with the social norms when required, is it the right thing to do?

  25. #50
    Aspiring Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    515
    I had to chime in here (not very welcome at the MTF these days, lol) but I actually think we women do things differently because we are different. Our bodies move differently (hips are wider etc) and yes, some of this, like long hair, is caused by the social construct that is gender specific presentation etc, but it's also just who we are. Our brains expect us to behave differently. I was a bit of a tomboy as a kid, but as I hit puberty I can tell you, something innate in me made me suddenly care a lot more about being different from the boys. It's just there, and Reine is right that it can lessen with age, but I do think men and women are internally different and no acting is needed as it just is. I will also add that I don't think we're VERY different from men (not to the extent some on this forum would have us believe) but there are subtleties that are undeniable. It's not a feminist issue either as I consider myself a women's rights supporter, but I personally don't understand those who fight to remove female/male altogether. This is as bad as the over-the-top female cliches. Denying women and men are different is the reason women suffer so much. We don't need to be like men to be worthy of basic human rights, do we?!?

    Anyway, I suspect this man-suit spoken of here is just the female mind rejecting being forced to wear the equivalent of a costume every day when it really wants to be authentic and walk and behave as women do. It's no wonder everyone here had to learn how to behave like a man. If someone put a man suit on me, I'd feel beyond uncomfortable. I literally wouldn't know what to do! I'm sorry everyone here had to suffer that. It's not fair.
    Last edited by Tinkerbell-GG; 10-06-2014 at 04:57 AM.

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