Consciously acting female

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Tinkerbell what a terrific nugget of wisdom..

You said.."We don't need to be like men to be worthy of basic human rights, do we?!?"
Especially in regards to the OP

Adina, its so easy to say Lets fight for what's right. What is right? I mean EXACTLY what is right??

And how to fight?? Surely not by trying to transition but to tamper down our innate sense of our gender?
I repeat the question...what does the way I cross my legs or make myself fit in appearance wise have to do propagating negative stereotypes??

Please be specific.

For me, my specific answer is that our best way to do what's right is to thrive as women (or men if ftm). To prove to the world that we are valid and authentic as humans, worthy of respect.
That means accepting the reality that men are different than women. If we try to say otherwise we will be marginalized. And that implies our status as trans is personal and irrelevant to "the cause" of influencing women's rights or influencing the media complex to change the way women are portrayed.

To me that means dealing with the reality that gender differences are innate, and that society will continue to drive how those differences are perceived..
This means that if you view the society as negative(As opposed to the differences themselves), then you must AS A WOMAN, actively support your human rights to thrive as a woman...your own self interest would be consistent with your world view...

. and in the meantime, i'll dress, talk and act however the hell I want, and I will thrive.

[LeaP]

This discussion reminds me why politics is such a pain. Theories of gender construction come out of the politics of more than a hundred years ago. One of the reasons that power and oppression is always a part of the dialog is because the politics are fundamental to the theories. Not a consequence, not a sidelight, fundamental. In that regard, I view the notion itself as a construction for the furtherance of the politics.

In any event, few of even the most ardent academics dismiss biology's influence (or employ the more extreme version, which postures biology itself as a construction). And if you take the more utilitarian position that I do, discussing oppression doesn't necessarily require resolving all gender role differences anyway. Because if you can separate sex from gender, you can also separate gender role from politics. The feminists might start by laying off some female politicians and business leaders who choose more "stereotypical" presentation (as they see it) yet function effectively and on a par with their male peers.

[ReineD]

I was a bit of a tomboy as a kid, but as I hit puberty I can tell you, something innate in me made me suddenly care a lot more about being different from the boys. It's just there, and Reine is right that it can lessen with age, but I do think men and women are internally different and no acting is needed as it just is.

In my view it's about our fundamental reason for being here, which is the propagation of our species. Men are attracted to women, and women who want to attract men will do what it takes to attract them. The methods change historically and from one culture to the next, so the things that we DO to be feminine are socially constructed or at least this is what I take is a construct: something that is not stable across different cultures and the span of time. In an African tribe two hundred years ago I might have worn a lip plate, in China I might have bound my feet to the point of deformity, and in modern western culture, I might dress like Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman". These are obviously extreme examples. I'm guessing that during the pioneering days in the US, strong, strapping women were more prized than the pretty young things who fainted at the sign of a calf being born, and so the former might have been considered more sexually appealing.

Men will always be attracted to women, and women will always want to attract them. THIS is not constructed, it is biology … although the attraction game and the ways in which we modify or accentuate our femininity does lose its importance when we are seventy.

[Kate T]

Adina, its so easy to say Lets fight for what's right. What is right? I mean EXACTLY what is right??

Freedom, equality, tolerance, understanding, peace, love. Yes, they are rather broad generalisations but they are what I believe to be right.

And how to fight?? Surely not by trying to transition but to tamper down our innate sense of our gender?
I repeat the question...what does the way I cross my legs or make myself fit in appearance wise have to do propagating negative stereotypes??

Please be specific.

Indeed How? Is it enough that one thrives as a woman and thereby provide an example of what can be done? If society accepts us as "just another woman" who fits in then who do trans youth look to for inspiration and affirmation? Is it enough that the mainstream visibility of our community is principally via drop dead gorgeous actresses (at the same time I do not deny their contribution to the rights of the trans community)? Does fitting in help others to be treated with equality, understanding and love? Honestly Kaitlyn my questions are half directed at myself as anyone here. I ask them because frankly I genuinely don't know what the answer is, or if there even is an answer. It doesn't mean the questions shouldn't be asked, at least not in my book.

[becky77]

If society accepts us as "just another woman" who fits in then who do trans youth look to for inspiration and affirmation? Is it enough that the mainstream visibility of our community is principally via drop dead gorgeous actresses (at the same time I do not deny their contribution to the rights of the trans community)? Does fitting in help others to be treated with equality, understanding and love?

That's an interesting question. I think it depends on the individual if you want to be different or 'normal', and the word 'normal' had it's own very in depth thread.
I'm not an extrovert, hardly confident and I just want to get on with my life.
Let's engage in a little daydream on my part, so this time in let's say five years I would like to be just a typical woman, perhaps lucky enough to have found a decent guy to love, friends to enjoy my time with, a career that i'm good at and holidays to look forward to. It's simple stuff taken for granted by so many people except us. It would be just living life without anxiety and discombobulation, just being.
Or, Do I wish to be standing up for Trans rights, keeping my life in the community and segregating myself from the rest of the world so that I am an inspiration, despite the fact it's totally against how I feel inside. Also how do I achieve that? For me to stand out as Trans does that mean I have to purposefully look different? For surely blending in with women is not the goal here so we must aim not to fit, in other words we need to embrace being different?
Well here is the issue for me personally, i'm Transexual and i'm not happy about it. I don't like that label and it doesn't feel to me that's who I am. I'm a woman and unfortunately I have spent enough time living a life different and feeling like a freak. For the first time I feel the chance of a normal life free of a lifetime of wrongness, I don't want to be anything special or stand out I just want some peace and quiet from my demons and enjoy being my trueself and i'm having to fight for this right in my own corner of the world.

When I first came on here I was severely questioning my motives, I guess I was still looking for a mentor type to help me through and the ideology of a world where being TS is accepted sounds great. That's until I built up experience as living as a woman, things changed then, it reinforced my inner feelings and the more I live my life as my true self the less I want anything to do with being anything other than just a woman.

Lets say the word Transexual doesn't exist, and we use the cliche of woman in a mans body. Now through transition lets remove the mans body bit and say woman. Now without the confusing label we have a woman, why would a woman want to make herself look different to stand up for trans rights? Surely that's for the Transgender community to deal with?

[Kathryn Martin]

Freedom, equality, tolerance, understanding, peace, love. Yes, they are rather broad generalisations but they are what I believe to be right.

Indeed How? Is it enough that one thrives as a woman and thereby provide an example of what can be done? If society accepts us as "just another woman" who fits in then who do trans youth look to for inspiration and affirmation? Is it enough that the mainstream visibility of our community is principally via drop dead gorgeous actresses (at the same time I do not deny their contribution to the rights of the trans community)? Does fitting in help others to be treated with equality, understanding and love? Honestly Kaitlyn my questions are half directed at myself as anyone here. I ask them because frankly I genuinely don't know what the answer is, or if there even is an answer. It doesn't mean the questions shouldn't be asked, at least not in my book.

It is interesting that you should mention the examples after which young trans persons model themselves. The issue as I see it is not anything new in our society. Because what you describe could equally be said about young women whether trans or not. Equality, understanding and love is almost inextricably bound into gender norms. So is acceptance respect and power. I recently had a conversation with a radical feminist (many of you would describe as TERF) about this very theme. The conversation was focused on the question of how to dismantle these norms so that an equitable outcome would result. Her take on this was:

But it's also (presumably?) difficult to find, create and maintain those spaces except on a small scale and few of us have the freedom to live like that the whole time.

Fitting into a political and social expectation to gain equality, understanding and love is often a necessity but it is also the very instrument by which we are subjugated. Ask any trans person about their pre-transition experience and this is the theme that emerges and ask any post-transition trans person and they will tell you that the degree of acceptance and equality that they experience is the degree to which they fit in.

I know that my views on this are quite unpopular. I would rather prefer to see the world I live in with eyes wide open.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Thanks for you answer Adina.. I admit to a certain analytical and pragmatic view that generally finds unanswerable questions less than helpful..

If you don't have a specific answer , compared to mine, i'd say that I have a much more meaningful and constructive view. I have actually done something about the problem. I've done what I think is right.
Lots and lots of people knew the old me...Hundreds and hundreds... they've all seen my transition which I did gradually, carefully and in full open sight (including my neighborhood)... every single one of those people have a better more constructive view of what a transsexual is..neighbors that 4 years wondered who the freaky looking Lady? man? coming in and out of "its" house now smile and wave and talk to me as I walk my dog... my next door neighbor used to stare at me in hatred and now he just smiles and even lets his kids run over to my house..this guy is a stereotypical man and I still can't believe its now "ok"...the guy across the street that cleans his motorcycles every weekend comes to my house now in the winter and offers to plow the snow off my driveway... this is real life..

I've given presentations to a couple dozen groups of students (nursing, physicians assistants, sociology). Almost every time I get people running up to me telling me how much they learned, how they didn't know about the things I shared, and how they won't think of us the same way. And trust me , I didn't bring up the internecine politics of radical feminism and how it interacts with ts dogma...I told my story plainly and openly with my heart right there in front of them..

The idea that you can't even begin to answer the question I asked (and instead simply defended that you asked the question) tells me that you are not really interested in real life answers...I gave you one, and your response was more unanswerable questions...
I would urge you to "do something" stop wasting your own obvious smarts and your own personal power...if I said I talked a million people into loving transsexuals it seems like you would say "is that enough?" who cares if its enough... you gotta start somewhere..i'd add one more thing...

we can have a conversation and go home and get stoned like a bunch of liberal arts professors (i lived this...I went to Swarthmore college..the epicenter--- of course I was one of a handful of math majors out of 300 kids..)

if that's all this is, count me out...
But as Kathryn points out (despite our disagreement on some of the details), only your answers really matter..

I really like her penultimate paragraph. Her very practical view reflects a hard won knowledge that I share with her even if we differ on how we get there.

[LeaP]

Adina, you've only hinted at one specific - trans community visibility. I'm not a lawyer, but there's an expression I like from the legal world: "bad cases make bad law." There are tons of reasons for this, but it fundamentally boils down to the difficulty of crafting broadly applicable and acceptable solutions from argumentive, exception-ridden, controversial, and exceptional circumstances.

Very few transsexuals indeed aspire to a permanent status of being trans. The nature of transsexuality, the inner drive to actualize your identity, runs counter to that. Becky captured this beautifully, as follows. I also like her point on this perhaps being a topic of more concern to non-TS, transgender (or gender-variant) people.

Lets say the word Transexual doesn't exist, and we use the cliche of woman in a mans body. Now through transition lets remove the mans body bit and say woman. Now without the confusing label we have a woman, why would a woman want to make herself look different to stand up for trans rights? Surely that's for the Transgender community to deal with?

The "bad cases" aphorism relates to the problem of trans women representing women's rights. Trans women are not lesser women. They have the right to such participation. No arguments there. The fact, however, despite limited acceptance in some quarters, is that most don't want to hear it. Not the radical feminists certainly, but also not the general public.

There is always an audience for the reformed and converted ex-whatever preaching to the masses. Ex-addicts, ex-criminals, ex-atheists, ex-communists, etc. And ex-males and ex-females. Great if you like lurid, exhibitionist attention.

You argue social justice. Right and wrong. But incredible progress has been made in the treatment of transsexuals as well as how they are regarded in the health system in the last couple of decades or so. How is that? It wasn't the kind of advocacy you appear to be implying, certainly not primarily. It's been a combination of medical research and grass roots support mechanisms arising out of the internet. The former chipped away at such things as the DSM, associations' medical necessity and ethics statements, and lately, insurance and civil rights laws inclusion. This was aided by organizations like WPATH out of the practical experiences of practitioners much more than traditional advocacy organizations like HRC - which have a long reputation for throwing us under the bus.

There is more potential (in the US, anyway) for rights advancements in the individual cases and decisions proceeding under Title VII of the civil rights act than all the traditional advocacy approaches combined. Like much else in the TS world, it seems, success comes from quiet, persistent individuals standing on identity alone. Or, as many here might put it, women pressing their rights AS women. Not trans women and not transgender, such things being more a medical and historical point of view with limited applicability.

If you want to argue peace, love, acceptance, etc., you really do need to get to specifics. I think these are being addressed for transsexuals in ways that are appropriate to transsexuals' needs and preferences already along the lines I've outlined. I'd be happy to hear alternative views, but platitudes alone aren't going to get a hearing from me.

[Kathryn Martin]

There is more potential .......... for rights advancements in the individual cases

There is a lot of wisdom in this sentence. I for one believe that real rights advancement does not necessarily lie in organizations that want to elevate trans rights to the 2000 and teens version of the last civil rights struggle, but rather in the the family courts, in the criminal courts and in the court of living simply a life, normal and as visible as a normal life makes us. I am not stealth, everyone knows where I came from.

Rights advancement for those that are transsexual or gender variant is not on the barricades of "special" rights but on the achieving "normality" when our rights are considered beside the rights that everyone else has. It s about the removal of this automatic disqualification to be custodial or accessing parent, it is about the honesty and credibility when we are accused of having been charged with a criminal offense and it is the normality of our lives. It is in the end about the recognition of the dignity of the person in the rights sphere.

That is where the real advancement of rights, are not with actresses or organizations that tell everyone what to say so as to not hurt our feelings.

[DebbieL]

The thing I remember when I was growing up is how hard the men and other boys tried to force everybody to NOT be girls.

If you were a "Sissy" you got beat up, targeted for violence and abuse.

If you laughed the wrong way, you were a girl - a target.
If you walked the wrong way, you were girly - a target
If you sat the wrong way, you were girly - a target
If you cried, you were girly - a target.

To me the world of boys and men was violent and dangerous. A game of soccer could end up with the "sissy" being used as the ball, everybody getting in a few good kicks".

The football coach had even more colorful language to describe boys who were too feminine.

I grew up at a time when hundreds of thousands of young men were being drafted into military service every year.
There was a program dedicated to preparing boys and young men for military service (President's Council on Physical Fitness).

For Vietnam, 18 year old boys had to be trained to kill women, children, even babies, on command, without hesitation. Mothers often slipped explosives between themselves and their babies. When they were shot, the booby trap would be triggered by someone wanting to help the crying baby, and the explosion would kill anyone within 50 feet. Children often came up to get candy, then tossed grenades into the jeeps and tanks. Some of the deadliest snipers were women.

Boys of that period were encouraged to violently attack guys who were too effeminate. Learning to hide that femininity could be a matter of survival.

Things have improved so much in those 50 years. There's still a ways to go, but progress has been made.

[Rogina B]

There is a lot of wisdom in this sentence. It is in the end about the recognition of the dignity of the person in the rights sphere.

That is where the real advancement of rights are not with actresses, or organizations that tell everyone what to say so as to not hurt our feelings.

I really believe that putting a "face to a label" is often the way progress is made. I did a political event for Equality Florida in August. My part was to be up close and personal as they[the politicians in power and wannabees] were asked" If a piece of transgender legislation[equal rights] were to be put to a vote..How would you vote on it?" It gives them[or the mainstream] a different viewpoint when they see the person that goes with the label.

[sarahcsc]

Hey all,

3 pages of comments later and I can't help but notice that we have veered off the original topic but it was nonetheless an enlightening trip. I only wished I had been part of the discussion a bit sooner but better late than never.

Like many have said here, I believe gender is a social construct that was driven and shaped by evolution and biology. Charles Darwin had an eloquent way of explaining an organisms behaviour especially when it comes to gender and sex.

Charles Darwin said in his second book The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex:

"The sexual struggle is of two kinds; in the one it is between individuals of the same sex, generally the males, in order to drive away or kill their rivals, the females remaining passive; whilst in the other, the struggle is likewise between the individuals of the same sex, in order to excite or charm those of the opposite sex, generally the females, which no longer remain passive, but select the more agreeable partners."

Gorillas are prime example of the former, while peacocks are prime example of the latter.

It seems to me that men are like gorillas, and women are like peacocks, but we must remember that the competition is always with the same and never with the opposite sex. Kelly Jameson mentioned about misogynistic men projecting their fears and weaknesses unto women:

Misogyny is a form of projection where the male rejects those unwanted "weak" parts of himself onto the female which he than "hates" (as hating her) but they are actually the parts of himself he hates from being immersed in the collective hate of women by men.

But I dare to say that women so the same with men with the feminist movement.

Both parties are trying to suppress and condemn the opposite sex when actually the competition has and always will be within the same sex!

If I went back to the original question:

What I am curious about is how many of you have made specific efforts to adopt stereotypical female associated gender behaviours in order to be perceived as more "authentically" female by the general public?

Yes, I have made conscious efforts to adopt stereotypical associated gender behaviours in order to be perceived as female but I guess we all got caught up by the question of "what is female"?

If we think that behaviour defines sex, then perhaps the peacocks can shed light on why females behave the way they do. In which case, females compete amongst other females by behaving in a way that increases their chances of charming the opposite sex so they can select more agreeable partners. This could possibly explain some feminine expressions and mannerisms. Men on the other hand will compete amongst other men by acquiring higher social standing (instead of beating or killing each other) so they can increase their chances of being selected by the most attractive female.

But I don't think behaviour defines sex. And I still have very little idea what "female" means but why should that stop me from behaving the way I want?

Just because I assumed a more stereotypical associated gender behaviour doesn't mean I have compromised on my own identity at all and it could even be argued as a process of redefining myself. It just so happened that I am now much more conscious of my ugly teeth when laughing so now I cover my mouth (whenever I can) when I laugh. I used to take up a lot of space but now I find that rude. You can argue that these are all just social constructed behaviours but I'll do it (without exaggerating it) if I felt it would make me feel more feminine.

The truth is, we all mirror ourselves through the eyes of others to huge extent. Nothing is more comforting to me than to hear somebody say that I look feminine than to hear myself saying in front of a mirror. This process of mirroring occurs throughout life and it applies to every aspect of our personality. You would start feeling tired if everybody at work commented that you looked tired. Some celebrities think they can behave recklessly and are above the law because millions of fans worshiped them. And it is this mirroring process which sustains our ego and identity. (ref: self psychology by Heinz Kohut)

Trouble starts when there is an incongruency between the way we perceive ourselves and the way others perceive us wherein lies the main dilemma of TS.

Pursuant to this question I also ask do you find this necessity to adopt what are essentially socially constructed stereotypes to be somewhat grating and do you not worry that you end up reinforcing a stereotype that has been used to discriminate against you your whole life?

There is no doubt I am enforcing some stereotypical behaviour, but why is this wrong? We can't even be sure if these stereotypical behaviours are "pathological" especially when it is rooted firmly in biological impetus to survive and procreate. Humans need a certain set of rules to follow in order to survive so they can know instinctively that anything foul smelling do not belong in the mouth or anybody that behaves in a stereotypical way is not a suitable mate. Yes, there is merit in not judging a book by its cover but we all do it anyways. It is an incredibly shallow way to know a person based on solely on their appearances (including stereotypical behaviours) but we all have to start shallow before going deeper.

In conclusion:

I believe both men and women adopt certain stereotypical behaviours or mannerisms that is a social construct which is grounded in biological and evolutionary principles. These two interact and affect each other to produce a set of recognizable human expressions. We acknowledge and accept some of these behaviours instinctively but challenge the rest. It has to do with the two separate parts of our brains "arguing" with each other and that is our more primitive reptilian brain which is covered by a more highly evolved mamalian brain. The primitive reptilian brain recognizes physical beauty while the mamalian brain recognizes social rules and hierarchy.

I guess the trick is to finding a balanced way to live taking into account our biological needs and needs to conform to society.

Any thoughts?

Love,
Sarah

[Brianna_H]

SarahCSC, this is a nitpick, but peacocks are males and peahens are females. It's the males that have the bright colorful plumage. There's even some controversy over whether or not the plumage is how the females actually choose a mate. There may be other, more subtle, reasons.

My real point is that in nature, these roles shift from species to species. Human culture and gender are way more varied and mutable than the instinct-driven behavior of animals. Sure we have instincts, but the way those get translated into our cultural norms is hugely variable. even in the animal world, homosexual behavior occurs. I'm sure it has some evolutionary origin, but what purpose does it serve in the sexual binary? Where does it fit? I think even the animal world is more intricate and blurry than Darwin realized.

On the competition issue, humanity and transgender people in particular are blurring this distinction, too, from bathrooms to the sporting field. Even if we wanted to be more "natural", which animal should we emulate? Better to find our own way with reason and compassion, as we are a different sort of animal.

When it comes down to it, gender may be a necessary thing, but it's expression is purely cultural. We TG/TS folks emulate the gender behavior of our "true sex" because we want to be seen and treated as who we feel we really are. That involves unlearning trained behavioral markers of our old gender and adopting the traits of our true gender. Sometimes that is easy, as we have picked up those traits already by being part of the culture. But sometimes it is difficult for psychological and physical reasons (fear of going out in public, our voice or body shape, etc.).

To answer the OP, yes, of course I have made efforts to fit the "stereotype" or gender norms of my culture. From the clothes I wear to the shoes on my feet. And it does concern me that I may reinforce stereotypes that make other uncomfortable. I'm obsessed with getting a bra and having womanly breasts, but I am also aware that women have fought for the right not to be bound by the oppressive side of our culture.

The best I can do is to express myself in the most genuine way I can, while supporting the rights of others to do the same. Just because I want to be a homemaker (wish I could be a mom) and wear lace and be submissive in the bedroom, does not mean that I think all women should be satisfied with those things. I can support them with my political voice and my heart.