bearded dude in a dress, not a crossdresser ??? .....dang rant....

[Rachelakld]

Question then to the term crossdressers,

so a female in cowboy boots is a crossdresser?
a daughter who borrows "dads socks" on a cold winter night is a crossdresser?
a female in jeans in the 1880 is a crossdresser?
a female in tights in the 1600 is a crossdresser?
a female in the 1500 with make up is a crossdresser?

a female this year, in any of the above is a crossdresser?

Should I mention it to the 150Kg dude in the Lava-lava (island skirt), that his woman in jeans is a crossdresser- I don't think so, nor would I call him "Miss"

And here was I thinking the crossdressing LABEL was an attitude, a state of mind, regardless of facial hair or any other physical feature.

Thanks for the update on the meaning of the label, but I ain't calling anyone with a beard "miss" until I know them better

[ReineD]

Rachel, females in cowboy boots are socially acceptable, as is a daughter who borrows her father's socks. I'm not sure what the social repercussions would have been for a woman in 1880 to wear blue-jeans, likely it would have been acceptable if she lived out on the frontier.

Men who wear women's clothing that are obviously purchased in women's stores regrettably do not fit under the umbrella of what is currently socially acceptable in our society, whether they have a beard or not. Herein lies the difference. Beards just make the men who wear them more noticeable because the visual cues are more starkly conflicting. I don't think it matters much to the general public what the state of mind or motive is. They just see a physical looking male who is wearing women's clothes. I hope that one day it gets better.

[Jamie001]

I don't think it matters much to the general public what the state of mind or motive is. They just see a physical looking male who is wearing women's clothes. I hope that one day it gets better.

It will only get better if more guys get out there and incorporate feminine articles of clothing into their everyday presentation. For example, presenting as a feminine male, without trying to deceive others that you are a woman. The reason that women wearing men's clothing is acceptable is because when women incorporate items from men's fashion, they don't try to deceive others into thinking that they are a man. They are just women incorporating men's articles of clothing. Men can do the same by incorporating women's articles of clothing into their presentation without attempting to deceive that they are a woman, however, most men are of the herd mentality and and are too afraid to think and act out of the box.

[Rachelakld]

I agree Reine,
fashion changes over the years, and it would appear that girls have always been "toughening up" in to mens clothes but does them wearing guys clothes make them crossdressers as people have suggested here, "that to wear ANY of the opposite sex clothing is termed crossdressing" (Okay technically yes, but then it becomes normalized in our society - look at Angelina Jolie in the tux - would you define her as a crossdresser - I think not).

Again from my point of view only - the guy on his stag night who ended the night dress like a girl is NOT a crossdresser, but a guy just being a drunk rebel
The guys in my city who wear dressers, mostly DO NOT intend to be feminine, DO NOT intend to be crossdressers, but just rebels against the norms imposed by society or following their cultural norms.

My litmus test is - if a male stranger came to and asked for the time, and he was wearing a skirt, would you address him "Miss"? In my society, for every 100, you would be punched about 95 times.

This is why my definition differs of from those who maybe don't interact with many skirt wearing males.

Sorry if this upsets anyone who opinions differ, I mean no disrespect, I just see the world differently and live in a place where guys can wear dresses without being issued a label.

[Melanie B]

I'm no historian, but my understanding is that it was the wars that made trousers acceptable for women. Without such a powerful driving force, the acceptance of "female" clothing for men has been more gradual, and with some backward steps. But long hair, earrings, pink T-shirts, necklaces and bracelets, etc.. are all far more acceptable now than they were 50 years ago.
I vividly remember my dad accusing me of "dressing like a girl" in about 1970-ish because I was wearing a lilac shirt with a high collar and back zip fastening, white flared trousers with no pockets, and boots with zips and 2-inch heels! Oh, I had a very tiny ponytail, and was wearing what he called "perfume" (aftershave). But everything I was wearing was completely in line with teenage male fashion at the time. To my dad back then, and probably to many people now, the shirt and trousers would probably look at least a bit camp, if not downright effeminate.

[Seana Summer]

I have seen very few men who can look like a genetic women no matter how much hair is removed. All of us have telling features whether we like it or not. We are all a dude in a dress to some degree if we were born with male anatomy. There is just no getting around it.

As a large man with big feet and large hands who likes to wear dresses, Thanks for this thread!!

[Vieja]

It is just one guys opinion. Right? Ignore it.


Vieja

[Taylor186]

To belabor Heather's excellent point.

You can crossdress without being a crossdresser,
You can be a crossdresser without crossdressing.

I am (since I realized it at age 6 or 7) a crossdresser and I am a crossdresser 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I am a crossdresser when dressed in male clothing (most of the time), I am a crossdresser when dressed in female clothing and I am a crossdresser when completely unclothed. My world is colored by this fact. I think of it as my brain is "hard wired" with the desire to crossdress, as it is with every crossdresser I've ever encountered. A simplistic dictionary definition has no meaningful place in this conversation.

And to the original post, I was an active crossdresser at 7 when I didn't need to shave. I was an active crossdresser in my 20s when I grew a beard, I was an active crossdresser in my 30s when I only had a mustache and I continue to be an active crossdresser today even though I shave every day.

I am for celebrating the diversity of our crossdressing expression and not judging those who express it differently than myself. Let's face it, we're all different, and that is a good thing.

[Rachelakld]

Thank you Taylor, exactly my point - It's the intent (what is inside a person)

I can now relax knowing the 3 x John Rambo I see often who wear camo jackets and floral dress are in fact non-conformist dressers and NOT actually cross dressers, because they don't actually want to cross dress

[Wildaboutheels]

Obviously men and women who dress "normally" don't have a lock on being clueless. I could fill several pages with some very strange quotes from this watering hole. And many here DO post under the influence so that's to be expected. Maybe a rule forbidding posting under the influence...

The #1 rule for any Forum of any type is to not let any of the words of ANY of the participants annoy you. They are after all just letters arranged in particular sequences.

There are plenty here who have no need or desire to "pass as a woman".

I think the name of the site is perfectly explanatory.

[ReineD]

The reason that women wearing men's clothing is acceptable is because when women incorporate items from men's fashion, they don't try to deceive others into thinking that they are a man. They are just women incorporating men's articles of clothing. Men can do the same by incorporating women's articles of clothing into their presentation without attempting to deceive that they are a woman, however, most men are of the herd mentality and and are too afraid to think and act out of the box.

I understand your point, but the issue is numbers.

Nearly 100% of women adopted wearing pants in western culture. And they didn't just wear men's pants with confidence, they actually adapted men's pants and made them feminine. This is what made the pants acceptable and why the fashion became wide-spread. The waists got smaller, the pants fit their derrières better, the designs, patterns, fabrics, etc were more feminine. I think you'd be able to tell if a woman was actually wearing men's pants. But, only about 1%-3% (or 5% if you want to be optimistic) men are willing to wear women's clothes in public, plus most CDers (at least on this site) are not interested in adapting the skirts to make them masculine like kilts, they want to wear the skirts that women wear. The vast majority of men are not interested in doing this, nor will they ever be.

There was an attempt a few years to popularize the wearing of man-skirts by the designer, Jean-Paul Gaultier. But, the look was NOT feminine. The models were manly looking men who wore a modern version of a kilt or a utility skirt, paired with men's shirts, socks, and manly looking shoes, and showing hairy legs. It wasn't an attempt to feminize men, it was rather an attempt to redefine men's fashion … in much the same way that women redefined women's fashion by adapting men's pants to suit their feminine styles and bodies. Gaultier's idea didn't become popular.

[Taylor186]

Designer Marc Jacobs (right) tried too and walked-the-walk for several seasons. You won't see him wearing a skirt today. My impression was that most women didn't like the look any more than most men.

[ReineD]

I've always LOVED the look. Think Liam Neeson and Sean Connery.

http://professionalfangirls.com/wp-c...on-Rob-Roy.jpg
http://professionalfangirls.com/wp-c...nnery-Kilt.jpg

[Jamie001]

Reine,

You summarized the problem, but probable didn't realize it. When a women's fashion article is imported for use by men, the designers goal is to masculinize it. That is the problem! The article of clothing is fine staying feminine and being mixed with other masculine and feminine items. We need to learn that it is perfectly fine to express both masculine and feminine in the same person. Women do this all of the time, while men follow the herd mindset and are terrified of anything that even appears remotely feminine. I have even seen articles in the NY Times regarding how women can wear large clunky men's watches like Rolex Submariners, and I have seen supermodels doing just that.

A good concept is to create a mix of feminine and masculine characteristics in an overall presentation. For example, a woman can wear makeup and a feminine skirt while masculine shoes such as combat boots. We have seen this look quite often. A male could wear a normal shirt, jeans, and wedge high-heel women's shoes. There are a lot of workable combinations of mixing masculine and feminine looks, however most men are deathly afraid of adding anything even remotely feminine to their look. I have seen many articles in women's magazines about how to add masculine items from their boyfriend's closet, but I have never seen an article in a men's magazine about how to incorporate items from a girlfriend's closet. We all are a mix of different quantities of masculine and feminine characteristics and should not be afraid to express the masculine and the feminine regardless of our biological sex. Will men ever get over the fear feminine? On the positive side, there was an article in the NY Times last year about the increasing number of men wearing nail polish even if only on their toes. I guess any progress will be very slow because boys are conditioned from the time that they speak their first words that emulating anything feminine is abhorrent behavior. That is the root cause of the problem perpetuated by our patriarchal society.

[vicky_cd99_2]

Jamie,

At the same time you never see any articles on how to get your guy to wear more feminine clothes in girls magazines either. Most women want a masculine male. Again I say most not all.

[shayleetv]

I haven't read all the comments on this thread but I have a question that comes with the original assumption about not being a crossdresser if you have a beard. Does that mean a woman that does not sport a beard likewise can't be a crossdresser. Ive seen a few drag kings who are bare faced but were passable. I guess they are just girls in pants. Go figure!

[Karen kc]

Guilty dude with a beard in a dress!! lol

[bobbimo]

Personally, I wont wear any of my girl clothes until I can look in the mirror and enjoy the girl looking back.
Wearing a pretty dress and a 2 day beard is just not me, and I feel like I have offended the dress and the designer that made it.
Just me
Bobbi

[Sarina Curtis]

Nothing could make me give up my Movember 'stache. The facial hair has little if anything to do with crossdressing. If you like your whiskers just look at them as a different kind of accessory, just like any other hair that may be on your body you can colour it.

[jjjjohanne]

I used to have a school teacher who was a GG. She had a beard that grew down her sides of her face and started to curve under her chin before the hair stopped growing. She was totally not a dude in a dress. However, she could probably kill a man with her bare hands...

[mechamoose]

Dude in a dress? How about a girl stuck in a bull-male body?

It is about who you are, not so much what you look like (or can 'pull off').

<3

- MM

[Tamara Croft]

and I feel like I have offended the dress

OMG that made me laugh.... infact I'm still laughing my OH just asked me what I was laughing at... I said 'I'm laughing at Bobbi and her offended dress'

To the OP, I know others have said take no notice, however comments like that 'dude in a dress' is insulting and can hurt more than people think. If people here can't be accepting of others, there is something very wrong there

[drushin703]

"Never for society
he shall seek in vain
who his own acquaintance
cultivate of men
wiser men may weary

but the man within never knew
satiety"


This coming Wednesday is Emily Dickinson's birthday but I am sure she didn't write this with crossdresser's in mine. If an un-bearded, smooth presentation is what you think of as overindulgence, then whatever disgust we have
when seeing you gratifies us, not you. Like others have said, be your own person. Do your own thing. Just be mindful and respectful of the protocol that others have followed......dana

[AprilMayy<3]

And so I'm sitting here, dressed, with full blown goatee

[Seana Summer]

In thinking about this, a thought came to mind. I was once told that the definition of good manners was acting in such a way that those around you would feel comfortable.

For example, if your wife has invited guests from the Ladies Tea and Crumpet Society to your home, it would be consider good manners to not do things to make their visit uncomfortable. For example don't pick your nose (past the first knuckle) with your elbows on the table just as tea is being served.

It is perhaps also bad manners to appear with facial hair and womens clothing in certain situations. However if a kid with purple hair and a nose ring the size of a silver dollar can walk around in public, I can walk around wearing a dress even if I have not shaved.

When in Rome do as the Roman do. I choose not to be in Rome. I choose to be in heels, skirt and nylons as I type this........and I am wearing a mustache and 2 days of stubble...... I hope you are not offended