Yes, it is, and the one thing we have in common is the inability/unwillingness to agree on its definition.Originally Posted by LilSissyStevie
Yes, it is, and the one thing we have in common is the inability/unwillingness to agree on its definition.
I think this discussion is a good example of Sayre's Law which states In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake. I mean, really! Why should the TG faction care if some CDs consider themselves not part of the club? Why should CD's be upset that some TGs include them? As a closeted, fetishistic type CD with only minor gender identity issues it makes little difference to my life whether I'm included in or excluded from the TG sorority. Exclude me and I laugh in your face. Include me, fine, as long as I'm not obligated to do anything.
Nicole- I doubt there can ever be perfect agreement on a definition of something as complex as transgenderism. I imagine that the members of the WPATH committee that came up with theirs went home embittered and disillusioned (see Sayre's Law) because they each wanted to define it somewhat differently. But they had a job to do and they came up with something they could live with at least until the next round of discussion. So it's our responsibility, when we use a word, to explain what we mean by it if there is any doubt. It's frustrating but language is more art than science.
Not a cult - nor a definition or perspective that everyone must accept... or an obligation to participate either. Most people here still exercise free will... and most realise that if something is being discussed that they're either not interested in, or they don't have anything useful to contribute, they move on to another thread or section somewhere else without actioning any desire to just leave some unhelpful comment... Imagine if what we were discussing was actually read by or influenced one of those psychologists who do eventually sit down and contribute to research, legislation or something more... wouldn't we have missed an opportunity to give of our best thoughts?? At some point those experts will categorise all of us whether we like it or not.
Reine - I've learnt a lot from what you've said over the past 10 months, and I agree with most of it, actually...but I have to revisit this perspective, even though I recognise it is an opinion based view and we may not get to full agreement - but that's OK...
I don't see what we have as a distinct partial female identity - I don't think that's really likely for most of us - but I have questioned and searched myself for the reason as to why I feel good or calm or excited, and more recently pushed that desire and need to express me in female presentation to other folk (my recent and first outing). I don't believe there's a girl inside trying to get out as such, but I do believe that for some of us (perhaps a lot who occupy the mid-ground) there is an aspect to our personality - a different facet - that naturally would exhibit more feminine traits but gets repressed by conditioning of what male behaviour, presentation and attitude is supposed to be. The act of dressing - of transforming - allows each of us more freedom to express that facet of ourselves without the same incongruity that is there when we present male. I suspect there is still more to it than this but, simply, men who are able to do this naturally just come across as more effeminate and a little 'camp' compared to the normal ruff 'n' tuff macho image we are used to as a stereotype, but conditioning prevents a lot of us doing this. Dressing gives us our outlet - it provides a kind of permission.
And we need the outlet because we have that additional facet to us that is demonstrably not there in the vast majority of males. I can't accept the simplistic 'I just dress female and this is nothing to do with gender', for that same social conditioning that so powerfully makes this feel (for many, at least in the early days) such a shameful and aberrant condition must have something that is also a sufficiently powerful drive in order to overcome that societal stigma. That is why I think that such a deep and powerful need must come from something at the core of our personality - not just a hobby or pastime, something we could do - but something more visceral; something we absolutely need to do! Someone who seeks escapism joins a Civil War or Roman Legion re-enactment group or amateur dramatics or similar... that way their male identity is totally preserved. To say that anyone continues to identify as male (with few exceptions on this board, notable for dressing but eschewing makeup, forms, padding or wigs) while doing their utmost to portray feminine in every possible visual way, just strikes me as being that conditioning surfacing again... "Yes, I wear lingerie, a dress, use mascara, wear female jewellery, eyeliner, earrings and heels - but I'm still 100% male identifying..."How can that be 100%??? So let's just say there's an acceptance that it's not 100% - it's whatever tiny or larger fraction that comes across as femme and it is that repressed facet I'm talking about and it's exactly that element that moves us from cisgendered males to transgendered.
Just finally (and briefly
Not everyone will read all of this (but if you have, well done and take a cookie
Katey x
"Put some lipstick on - Perfume your neck and slip your high heels on
Rinse and curl your hair - Loosen your hips, and get a dress to wear" Stefani Germanotta
I think language is part of it... but, I think the science aspect of TG is the real issue.
There are fields where the scientific method works perfectly. I can come up with an idea, test it, and prove if the idea is right or wrong. It's objective.
Social Sciences though... I fit the WPATH and DSM-V definitions of TG. I'm ok with that. I have Gender Dysphoria, again according to the definition, and I'm ok with that. From what I can tell, being TS is having Gender Dysphoria so strongly that you really need to live as the other gender in order to survive, or at least be happy. (I worry like hell that I'm headed that direction.)
But... really, is any of that scientific? There are so many tiny little variables to anyone's life, how in the world could you ever "scientifically" diagnose a condition like transgenderism ? The best researchers can do is see that there is a portion of the population that shares a certain number of traits, and putting a name on that collection of traits.
So we can talk about being CD or TG or TS, and really, the only "truth" to any of it is *how do you feel?*.
Nadine,
I disagree 100% with you. Your "argument" holds no logic. I am a straight married male that loves to put on girls clothes. I have no intention on becoming or transitioning to become a woman. I love being a male. I do not like labels either. By the way, that definition you cited is extremely broad and vague.
I do appreciate your astuteness though.
Love,
Lexi V.
This site needs a new name if this is an issue. I adore wearing the clothes, scents, shoes and hairstyles of what society calls the feminine, or opposite sex. I am comfortable with "crossdresser". But "Trans" indicates to me that I am on my way somewhere else, and I am not.
I am loving both worlds.
It holds logic if you believe 'girls clothes' make a woman, which I gather quite a few here do. As a woman, I know this is utter nonsense which is why I think Transgender is too inclusive and should really only mean those who cross psychological gender lines and not just the external.
Of course, there are also those here who rationalise that if you wear it, you must feel it. I personally think this is also nonsense and I'm sure this is just people making themselves feel better - safety in numbers and all that. So I suggest to those who disagree to ignore the labels if they don't fit as not everyone needs group approval to be content.
If the label fits, then wear it proudly, but avoid temptation to compare yourself to other members as this is where all this confusion comes from. We're all different. Embrace it!
Last edited by Tinkerbell-GG; 10-20-2014 at 08:28 PM.
Be mindful that labels are going to attached to us by others or with some. Ourselves. Fact is when we are made out in public. Fact is we are perceived as gay. We are not at first blush seen as who we are be it a straight man with a wife. We don't have that explanation readily available to what is in someones mind. Ok, What we are to ourselves is what matters. If, I tried to put a label on myself, I may not find one because, I have my own unique needs and feelings that comes with CD. Let these professionals with their studies and science come into my life and people that share the same feelings that, I do and what my happen is some of my joy may be imposed on. It's one person in this dress and she sets the rules, and her science behind it is that this girl is secure and can't wait to go out again. I love both of me. The only thing is. One side wants to run the show.
I agree. am a crossdresser, therefore I desire to present myself as a woman. I am, by definition a transgendered individual.
At the end of the day, the label doesn't bother me but the request to wear name tags is just too much!
Hmmm..... Okay, lets see....
#1 - I stated that I consider everyone who does any gender variance thing, like putting on women's clothes when you are a man, to be transgender because I understand the term "transgender" to be the umbrella term that covers everyone who does anything that does not conform with what their birth gender traditionally does.
#2 - I do not need to be a part of any group to feel whole, or included, or a part of something. Trust me, even with this internet thing going on for quite some time, I never bothered to reach out to anyone, other people, other groups, support places, LGBT associations, therapists, or whatever. I was happy enough being a group of two, my wife and I. My wife actually laughed when I read to her how many of you think that I need to be part of a group to feel good about myself.
#3 - I do not think that I am any part woman. I am nowhere on the path to transition. I do not personally think of myself as anything but a man.
#4 - I was fine with calling myself "just" a cross dresser or even a transvestite, until I started telling my friends and family about what I like to do. I kind of got the reaction of "hey that is great, but I am not interested in what you do for your sexual thrills, it is fine, but keep your fetishes to yourself." This idea of cross dressing being a sexual fetish is partly why I started my blog in the first place, to try and help dispel the myth that it is always a sexually related activity. When you type in cross dresser into google, and view the images, I do not relate to those pictures in any way. If you do the same thing with the word transgender, yeah, that is far more along the lines of what I do. When my friends and family type a word into google, personally I want them typing in transgender. I understand now, that many of you do not want to ever be associated with that word, because you think it implies you are transexual. It does not. Both cross dressers and transexuals exist underneath the same term, transgender.
#5 - If I am anything, I am a word nerd! I love words! So many of you are afraid of "labels," but I do not have a fear of them, as they are just words! After viewing the many, and impassioned responses, I simply wish we had clearer, more accurate, more universally accepted descriptors.
#6 - If you don't want to call yourself transgender, then don't. If you want to call yourself "just a guy who occasionally likes to dress in women's clothes but it does not mean anything at all about me, my gender, or my sexuality," then go ahead, but I think it is kind of a mouthful.
Last edited by Nadine Spirit; 10-20-2014 at 10:41 PM.
Don't beat around the bush Nadine. What do you really think?
Nadine and anyone else who can't live without labels.
Transvestite(noun): person, typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes appropriate to the opposite sex.
Transgender(adjective): denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.
Using the definitions above I will admit to being a transvestite. I am not transgender person. I am not "confused" about my identity.
Also important to note, a "noun" is a person, place, or thing.
I hope this helps to elucidate things for you hon.
Love,
Lexi V.
Well um... Thanks?
I didn't say I am "a" transgender, I said I consider myself to be transgender. I am pretty sure that madlibs cleared up for me what a noun is. And I am "a" human that is transgender.
Cause you know an adjective describes a noun.
Nadine,
I really do admire your vehemence!
Love,
Lexi V.
Well now you're just using your high falootin' book learning to bamboozle me!
annd...as typical of this type of thread we are going into redundancy and sniping. I think we be done K?
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
