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Thread: Rethinking Birth Gender

  1. #26
    Member TG-Taru's Avatar
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    Frances,
    That was my mistake, speaking only of how things should be, generally, not in a specific location, and assuming they were pretty close - no utopia, but not too unreasonable. I wasn't really thinking or remembering there can be worse places. I hope you can see and understand that largely I wasn't talking about or claiming to know how it is in practical reality at the moment, but in a few places I seem to have done just that, insisting in the wrong place. For that, I'm sorry.

    Of course I realize it's different in different areas, but might have few vague ideas and know few specifics. I'm in Europe, and in my country, it's common to not need or even have a BC your entire life. It's a little beside the point though that I didn't realize how widely it is used elsewhere. I was asking if a modified copy wouldn't do, and from what little I've seen, a certified copy will do fine.

    I checked my british and american dictionaries, and if I pick some definitions from the american one for "assignment" being appointed duty and obligation, and listen to what some of you seem to be saying... It's just too unthinkable for me to have considered. In Iran or some such maybe.

    I also wasn't trying to deny you need, or get, all the modified documents you need. My only beef about it was, does it really have to be the original BC, and modified how exactly. Anything else and any sort of BC copy I was fine with. It should be enough to cover all necessities.



    Sue,
    you said it yourself too. I was saying the same thing, gender is who you are, and it can't be seen at birth. And sex is something you might have and hopefully enjoy. But, it isn't the only meaning of the word, there are lots of words with several meanings, isn't language wonderful? "Sex" also means the body's reproductive type, which is usually male or female. That is why "sex" is a better word for what is marked on a birth certificate - it can't reasonably be "gender", after all. Nowadays intersexed start to get noticed to exist as well, and not arbitrarily assigned one or the other at birth anymore.

    Dictionary tells me "gender" is formal English for male or female, and "sex" is according to the function in producing young, charasteristic of being male or female, and only third on the list as an activity you have. So "sex" is a good word for describing the type of body, and "gender" is more suited to identity. That's how many use them, me included, to really say what we mean, as long as all parties can agree this is what we mean with them.



    GabbiSophia,
    I don't think you need to stress too much about not gendering them yourself. You are already aware. The bigger pressure and examples comes from outside, but you can point out to the kids they don't need to be like the others. Let them decide for themselves when appropriate. Most likely that's fine. Just only not going "no! this is not for..." or "that's not how ... are" is alot.



    LeaP, Kaitlyn, Rianna...

    Actually, LeaP, thank you, pretty well done for comprehension. Still, mostly talking about different things. I was responsible for some at least where you and the others got my intention wrong. You make sense in return, and helped me notice where I was off.

    "It reduces to pleading the preservation of the BC as a historical record - presumably an accurate..."
    It really does boil down to pretty much this. It's the principle of the thing, if we start changing this, then that, and a whole world of little things that are mostly insignificant, but just maybe not totally, where will it end?

    "mistakes on BCs ARE routinely corrected" ... "You can't argue that it preserves a record of phenotype"
    I bet we are talking about two different things again. You what you see as reality around you perhaps, me an ideal or what I'd bloody well expect, what makes sense. I did go too far in maintaining that BCs ARE (at least taken as) what they SHOULD be, treating that single marker as nothing more than past phenotype anyway, to use your word. I guess this is a major reason for butting heads, sorry. Of course it doesn't reflect this or that current reality. As I was speaking of SHOULD be, not how it actually is over there, "my" BC isn't as unsuitable - you can see my first post about that, and it needn't even be exactly that. Most of my ramblings are either of trying to think up the best but still accurate way to make a BC, what it's purpose would be or commentary of what I see wrong with how it is, and how it should be instead. It's not concrete, if you feel it lacking, I invite you to improve on how we would like it. You could stop using them. Over here we only get them sometimes as mementos or get an equivalent when needed abroad.
    Mistake? In other words, what you think is actually recorded on the BC. Or is "corrected" an accurate term. If BCs made sense, there wouldn't be anything to correct (or, at least, not by removing that bit, PAST phenotype), it'd be accurate. If so, I'd have issues with removing/replacing it, is what I mean by not altering it. Adding to it, to not be misleading and reflect what's changed, would be fine, and the copies mentioned many times could leave that bit out. Maybe I made another mistake assuming your "correcting" to mean erasing one marker, putting in another and claiming it aaaalways was like that - I don't recall you actually saying that. For all I care, actually, shift birth sex to the margin or footnote, as long as it stays there somewhere, and put the correction in the vacated place.

    OK, so apparently you think BCs try to enforce and suggest gender=sex. Sneaky b*tards. If they are, as you say, seriously suggesting more than they rightly should, the whole format and usage is faulty.

    "pretending there is a gender vs sex USAGE differentiation with BCs ... The truth is that it is used to reinforce their conflation."
    As said, not pretending, expecting. Again, sorry for that assumption. That may be what they do, unwittingly, I hope. You almost make it sound like a conspiracy. I'm saying they shouldn't conflate, I'm saying if they aren't differentiating, it's just stupid and makes no sense, because only one of those things they can see or examine. The other they should leave open or not mention and not pretend it has anything to do with the other.

    " Identification? Actually, sex as recorded on the BC.."
    You got stuck on the BC. BC has (sorry, should have) no place being used as such outside the maternity ward. I said, change all other, current documents, one of those would be the proper document to use.

    "argument is made for demographics and statistics usage. ...I would say a better field of opportunity lies in ..."
    For anything a bit complicated you are certainly right. I'm guessing for simple total numbers BC would be easier and more reliable, assuming there are databases and not just pieces of paper on shelves.

    "Birth certificates are best understood as an antiquated approach..."
    Oh agreed agreed. They do seem to be finding use as proof traveling children are being transported by their real parents. Of course, it needn't be a BC used for that either.



    Rianna...
    Again you are putting words in my mouth.

    You say I say "postfacto alteration of the original certificate of birth". I specifically say every other type of id plus amend copies to use, not the original (-I actually clarified that above too, to: no removing, adding yes). You are fixated on the original, which need not matter in the individuals life. If, in practical reality in your area, it DOES, then, sorry - my mistake for only talking about how it should be, and assuming it was. This is the only bit I applied the "feel better" to, insisting on changing it for no practical gain. I use many words in hope that some hit the mark where the few seem to keep missing.

    You are twisting it so it's like I said "government is all-knowing, government is god, government is everything"... I was only referring to other posters mentioning it, not my words to begin with. It's totally meaningless to quibble over who makes the determination. I was referring to "the government" mentioned by another poster.

    If everyone and their uncle demand a birth certificate in particular, that's something to change. That particular document should have little legitimate use it's specifically needed for. Meantime, I already suggested ways it could be handled, for one the amended copies made default. The desired effect, no problem.

    Let me have my unaltered not falsified but updated original locked in an archive that only ever gives information about it as a nameless bit of mass data for research or statistics. Then I'll happily shut up. If you don't, I'll sigh and shut up, at least speaking about this further to you. You take your copies with your desired letter on them and do what you like, I've no problem with that. Nobody ever needs to see the original again if it REALLY isn't needed, and really, those situations could be handled by other means. It would have no practical impact on your life, you's already have what you needed.

  2. #27
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    OK

    Got it...

    thanks for the info...

  3. #28
    Silver Member DebbieL's Avatar
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    Gender ambiguity occurs in roughly 1 in 100 males. And that's just the obvious gender differences.
    Since the early 50s, doctors would try to "correct the problem" by assigning a gender.

    When my mom died, my father sent records she had kept in a sealed envelope. When I opened it, there were pictures of me at various ages, but there was also that hospital "Birth Certificate" that had the footprints on it. What was interesting was the name was "Ballard Boy?" - yes, there was a question mark.

    My father had to explain before I found out that other boys had them, that I didn't have testes like most boys - mine were "up inside like ovaries".

    When I was in my late thirties, my girlfriend was curious that instead of the straight seam down my scrotum, I had a zig-zag all the way down. I did some research and found at that this was probably because I was manually sown together by a doctor - probably a day or two after my birth.

    There are even rare cases of males who have a uterus and periods, with the blood draining into the colon or rectum.
    Often, since men aren't old enough to recognize bleeding until they are in their late 50s, they may not recognize blood in the stool.

    Doctors have been trying to find better ways of determining gender, and when in doubt assign to male. It's easier to turn a man into a woman later than it is to turn a girl into a man later in life.

    Far more common, in 1 in 10 males, is the physiological markings that indicate that the male did not have enough testosterone during the first 8 weeks - when the brain and bones are developed. Often, a longer index finger indicates a more feminine bone structure, and usually a more feminine brain. They have a smaller limbic system, more white matter, and smaller hypothalamus. Even by 2 it's obvious that they not only don't fight much, they don't even try to defend themselves. They behave more like girls, wanting to color, play with dolls, and make up stories.

    I even have a theory as to why transgender males are more common since the 50s. For centuries, alpha males were the leaders, the most desirable, and the most likely to reproduce. However, when war transitioned from swords, axes, and clubs to rifles, huge populations of alpha males were killed by men whose ability to hold back, wait, be patient, carefully aim, and take their shot, men who did not rush into shooting the first moment they thought they might be able to hit something.

    The Napoleonic wars, the Civil war, World Wars I and II each killed huge populations of alpha males - those who eagerly took the first wave, or volunteered to be in the trenches and went over the wall, were usually bunched up and mowed down with machine guns. Some of the most feared soldiers were the Scotch, the Irish, and the "Colored" groups, because they would aim for the legs, which mean those who were shot were unable to move, stuck in no-man's land, and the snipers would pick off everyone who tried to rescue or help any of the injured.

    To make matters worse, millions of men who survived word war I died of Spanish flu, Scarlet Fever, or Polio - which ravaged millions of people but seemed to be very hard on alpha males who couldn't deal with being helpless and therefore didn't take the time to heal. If 70% of the alpha male population was killed off, and those who had rear duty, or who were 4F because they were too feminine to fight, to meet the criteria to enlist, would have reproduced, expanding the transgender population.

    With Vietnam and a huge prison population and gang wars, the alpha male population is shrinking even more, while transgender males who focus their interest into non-violent non-alpha careers, medicine, science, technology - the same skills that once made transgender males respected as wizards and warlocks.

    Perhaps now that so much of our urban population is so densely packed together, the skills of the wizard, the arbitrator, the negotiator, the advocate, the healer, are far more valued and needed than the hunter, the fighter, and the strong alpha male.

    In rural areas, the farms, the ranches, the alpha males are still needed to a lesser degree than before. A farmer can now plow and harvest huge crops with a hand-full of highly skilled workers who drive tractors and combines. Even the irrigation is automated on most farms. Ranches still need men who can rope and brand the cows, but trucks huge trailers and good rail service have made long cattle drives through multiple states much less necessary.

    However, Alpha males are very used to having the perks of power. Suddenly, they are seeing omega males, feminine males, what they consider the bottom of the pecking order, the sissies, the nerds, the book-worms. For the last 40 years, these have become the dominant and highest paid, while the alpha male, the blue collar worker, the fighter, has become far less popular, less successful, and in the wake of feminism, less desirable.

    Maybe we are supposed to be more transgendered as a culture, even globally. In a recent survey of transgenders, there were over 9 million english speaking respondents. That's the equivalent of 3% of the total population - 1 in 30 people, who is transgendered. Furthermore, if most of those respondents were men, that could be 7% of the male population, 1 in 15 or 1 in 14. And each of those people has friends, family, coworkers, schoolmates.

    How does the medical community respond to this? How does society respond to this?
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  4. #29
    Member TG-Taru's Avatar
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    After all this talking, it really struck me,
    "gender" as a lone word is really horribly imprecise and can be interpreted in too many ways, or mix them together. It needs further defining or context if used. "sex" too has several meanings, but each of them is more precise.

  5. #30
    Silver Member Starling's Avatar
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    The crux of the matter is how you feel, and not what to call it. Being transsexual is not an idea, but a fact. It would be nice to have definitive knowledge of the cause or causes, but I believe it is irrelevant to your life as a transsexual person, once you have found yourself to be so, and how you decide to deal with it.

    Lallie
    Time for a change.

  6. #31
    Silver Member DebbieL's Avatar
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    Certainly, trying to define someone's gender by looking between their legs is probably the least reliable way. I was freakishly small as a baby and had no testes, but I still got the label because I had a teeny weeny peeny.

    It might be best for doctors not to try to make the decision at birth, but rather tell the parents that either the male or female personality will emerge and dominate, and then the appropriate corrections can be made. I just wish that doctors could explain it that way to the general public.
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