times are changing in the schools

[jamie-upstate]

On December 2nd, the Shenendehowa School Board will be voting on whether to allow its high school students to request access to restrooms that correspond with the gender identity that the student exclusively and consistently asserts at school.*
Their request will be approved or denied by the superintendent or designee, along with the applicable building level administrator, based on several criteria.
We welcome you to share your thoughts/opinions on the school's proposal with us.


This is a large school in the capital district of NY

[Karyn Marie]

I work in a school district, and we just had this discussion today. We DO allow the kids to use the restroom of the gender they identify with. We have not had any students in my school use the restroom of their chosen gender, but it is coming. I want to think I am okay with it, but most of the people I work with are not. I worry what the other students will do or say, and will the person be ridiculed.

[Leilani]

I do not think that this is something that should be done. I think that if we, as a society, want to have unisex bathrooms for adults that is okay for discussion but when we begin to have a situation where we allow a boy or girl to use the "opposite" restroom, we are opening a can of worms that need not be dealt with. It seems to me that the percentage of people who question their identity not matching their birth gender is so low that we are putting a larger segment of the population at unease than we are helping. I ascribe to the "the good of the many outweighs the good of the few" philosophy so I think that in the interests of allowing the greater number of students to feel comfortable in these private areas we need to maintain a clear delineation for those who use the facilities. My opinion.

[Rachelakld]

I've 4 daughters and don't like the idea as it will be abused (boys with cameras, fem boys being bullied to install a cameras, or boys who use it being bullied).
If they install unisex, then it becomes "user beware", but I rather have a girls toilet for use for girls who don't want boys peeing on the seat, a seat that my girls won't be scared to sit down on.

[AllieSF]

I am totally in favor with this. I realize that it will take some getting used to, may require modifications over time. However, here we are on this transgender support site saying that we do not support transgender rights. That really confuses me. If the nay sayer's above go out in the real world and expect to be able and use the restrooms of the gender that they present as, how can they not support this? It is much better to start instilling in our youth the concept of embracing diversity versus separating it from the norm, whatever they decide to define that as. Boys with cameras, fem boys (is that bad??), or boys being bullied who may actually abuse this will be extremely rare if it happens at all, and is pure horseshit if one believes that it will happen in the majority of cases. Hell, boys do that now sometimes and probably never get caught. As they say, boys will be boys.

I obviously vote YES.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Making a single user restroom (which could also be used by children with special needs who need assistance using the bathroom) would solve the issue.

[BOBBI G.]

I am curious about the approval/denial system,letters from a certified gender therapist, endo referral stating medical treatment no in use, These type of things. Special ID will be necessary to help the situation, and some one standing as a door person as well. What are requirements for this approval/denial board. Are they really qualified to make these decisions? It is taking place now in some of the elementary schools around the country on a case by case basis, so can middle school and high school be that far behind? Personally, I haven't used the male urinal on over forty years, I will wait for a stall to become available, and am respectful of the facilities I am using, today. And, yes, I am a transgender girl, working toward womanhood.

Bobbi

[mechamoose]

Leilani:

Let me swap over the example for a moment from bathrooms to gyms.

When I was in HS in the 80's (I have not been in one since then.. not that kind of perv) The girls gym had individual changing areas and showers. Stalls with doors. The guys gym showers were a big open area. A big room with shower nozzles around the walls.

My take was a message that girls deserved privacy and modesty, guys were expected to be communal.

If you build these private spaces for private functions, it doesn't matter what happens in the 'lobby'.

- MM

[Promethea]

we are putting a larger segment of the population at unease than we are helping. I ascribe to the "the good of the many outweighs the good of the few" philosophy

It's not the good of the many, the "unease" a handful may experience comes from unjustified fear, product of misinformation and lack of education. That education is the responsibility of the schools, and giving it to them will be for the good of all.

If they install unisex, then it becomes "user beware", but I rather have a girls toilet for use for girls who don't want boys peeing on the seat, a seat that my girls won't be scared to sit down on.

I take it you've never been to a women restroom. Women don't sit down, they hover, because the seats are all peed on, because women don't sit down, the hover, because the seats are all peed on, because women don't sit down... And like this all the way to the bing bang.

However, here we are on this transgender support site saying that we do not support transgender rights. That really confuses me.

It's not really a trangender support site, it's a crosdressers support site with a section for trangender people, and we're not in that section... The majority of members are not TG, and a portion of them don't understand what we go through and don't even "approve" of us.

[Claire Cook]

I do think that "the times they are a'changin'". I hope the school board makes the correct decision that students who identify and present as the opposite gender be allowed to use the appropriate rest room. Locker rooms, however, might be a different issue.

[NicoleScott]

Restrooms have been built to accommodate a user's sex. Male restrooms have stalls and urinals. Female restrooms have more stalls and no urinals. This has worked for a long time. Why, suddenly, why a person's gender identity (rather than his/her sex) be what determines which restroom to use? A MtF can go into a men's room stall, lock the door, and sit down to pee. Oh, that makes him/her uncomfortable. So what if a MtF using the women's restroom makes some women uncomfortable. Too bad, right?
A transgendered person's state of mind comfort must be accommodated, but the discomfort of others? Well, get over it, right?
I agree with Leilani (Post#3) "the good of the many..." I believe in "reasonable accommodation": providing restroom facilities for the gender non-conforming, without negatively affecting the majority.
As much as I am for accommodating the minority, I still believe that restroom assignments based on sex is more appropriate than based on gender identity. But, I'm pleased that the school board used the language "gender identity that the student exclusively and consistently asserts at school."
Maybe all restroom door signs should say only "RESTROOM". That would make a few people happy, at the expense of all the others, of course.

[Stephanie47]

When I go to a mall I see unisex bathrooms. Well, they are billed as family friendly bathrooms with changing tables. That setup is great for a mom with a little boy. The same for a guy with his daughter. The problem with allowing nature's assigned gender go to the opposite gender's bathroom is the total lack of maturity among kids and the probability of violations of privacy and verbal and/or physical abuse. It is also expensive to retrofit schools to accommodate one r two students. I've read of one solution where the child is allowed to use the teacher/administrative restroom of their choice.

There has been issues of transgendered adult men being allowed to use the locker rooms of females. This has been very upsetting for many very young girls and their parents.

[larry07]

It seems a no brainer to me. Of course kids (and adults) should use the restroom assigned to the gender that they present as and identify as. Details of their anatomy are nobody else's business. Imagine the possibility for problems if a genetic male who identified and dressed as a girl were forced to use the boys restroom.

[Beverley Sims]

Applied sensibly I think it would work well.

Do you know any sensible teenage children?

On the other side of the coin a single unisex bathroom for those who feel strongly about it may be a solution.

Boys will be boys and girls will be girls.

Leave them with separate restrooms and those that choose may use the single alternative accommodation made available.

Bullying remains supreme in schools and those that are different are ostracised.

Just stand in the mall dressed in drag at three o'clock in the afternoon.

We have all talked about it.

[AllieSF]

It's not really a transgender support site, it's a crossdressers support site with a section for transgender people, and we're not in that section... The majority of members are not TG, and a portion of them don't understand what we go through and don't even "approve" of us.

My comment is based on the definition for Transgender that is used on this site. That is, the term "transgender" is the umbrella term that all the rest fall under from crossdresser to transvestite to transsexual and probably a few other terms not commonly used. I do understand that not all here and in the outside world are in agreement with this definition, and that is fine with me. I specifically used that word for its all inclusive meaning, and this site offers support to everyone under that umbrella.

California introduced that state wide right of use of restroom and locker rooms based on the student's gender orientation last year. Controversial, yes, but let's see what happens over the long term.

[Eryn]

California has had open bathroom usage in schools for some time. No permissions, no review by a "gender assignment board," no nothing. The student simply uses the restroom that they feel matches their gender.

We haven't seen any repercussions from this except those of overzealous "concerned parents" and administrators who dwell on wild "what if" scenarios. No cameras, no gangs of boys invading the girls' room, no problem at all to speak of.

Nothing that a transgender girl can do would hold a candle to what GG girls already do to each other anyway!

[Marcelle]

Wow . . . interesting vote and very interesting replies.

So for those who are CD and don't agree but go out . . . say you were out and about and all of a sudden the call of nature overtook you and holding it is not an option. You look around and there are no "unisex/family" restrooms available what do you do? I tend to agree that a person should use the bathroom of the gender they present (adult or youth). So these young males who identify and present female are suppose to go in the "boys" restroom and risk being beaten/bullied or worse. Is that your contention?

One of my early forays out I took the mindset that I was a guy so I should use the "mens" restroom regardless of how I was presenting and if it was not for the fact that a security guard walked in a very irate couple of dudes ready to do bodily harm . . . well let's just say I don't use the "mens" when I am Isha anymore.

In Canada a Bill was trying to be passed which would enshrine TG rights in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It was quickly dubbed the "bathroom bill" by those opposed so they could whip up peoples fear through ignorance by implying that allowing TG persons rights means that women will be attacked in bathrooms by men pretending to be women. Pure and utter nonsense. In the case of the High School students I am fairly certain that to use the bathroom of the opposite "birth gender" it would be a little more stringent than "Bobby Quarterback" deciding today he is a girl so he can spy on the girls. I am assuming the individual would be self-identified TG. Can they be bullied into putting a camera into the girls restroom? I suppose but then again, it is just as likely boys might sneak into the girls restrooms after hours and place cameras in there.

Hugs

Isha

[Tracii G]

Several single unisex bathrooms I think is a better idea that way everyone gets what they want.

[mechamoose]

Isha:

If you are presenting like a woman, I can't imagine why you would risk your safety be going into a Men's loo.

WHO KNOWS what bits dangle into the bowl behind that door?

Live who you are and act accordingly, that is my take.

- MM

[Lorileah]

I think that if we, as a society, want to have unisex bathrooms for adults that is okay for discussion but when we begin to have a situation where we allow a boy or girl to use the "opposite" restroom, we are opening a can of worms that need not be dealt with.

OK when do they become adults?16? 18? 21? Where is that line in the sand. And the argument against that idea is that 6-7-8 year old kids are not sexually active and by allowing them the use of unisex restrooms, they grow up thinking it isn't a sexual thing.

It seems to me that the percentage of people who question their identity not matching their birth gender is so low that we are putting a larger segment of the population at unease than we are helping.

Really BAD analogy. Your saying that we should not accommodate a small minority over the majority. Welcome to 1950's Southern US. "Separate but equal"

I ascribe to the "the good of the many outweighs the good of the few" philosophy so I think that in the interests of allowing the greater number of students to feel comfortable in these private areas we need to maintain a clear delineation for those who use the facilities.

thus sayeth every white male in Alabama in 1959. I understand it is your opinion and you are welcome to it but there are little flaws that I don't think you have considered. Step back and put yourself into a situation where you are marginalized and treated as different or less. Hard to do. Say 90% of the population isn't like you so they say "Hey you can't do this or that" but you want to do whatever it is. Using a restroom maybe.

It's not really a trangender support site, it's a crosdressers support site with a section for trangender people, and we're not in that section... The majority of members are not TG, and a portion of them don't understand what we go through and don't even "approve" of us.

Um...no. It i a site for the support of everyone. It is a Transgender site with sections for transsexuals and crossdressers (as well as Spouses an transmen) Also (as noted later here) transgender is crossdressers.. This is why it is IMPORTANT that we all use the same definitions. So I assume you are TS (which is part of being TG) and I agree we can't skitter off and play male when we are being discriminated against

Restrooms have been built to accommodate a user's sex. Male restrooms have stalls and urinals. Female restrooms have more stalls and no urinals.

Really? so if we um...eliminate the urinals it becomes a women's restroom? Do you have a urinal in your house? Just asking (I actually have a friend who does but amazingly his wife uses the same restroom...

This has worked for a long time. Why, suddenly, why a person's gender identity (rather than his/her sex) be what determines which restroom to use?

Gee segregated lunch counters worked a long time too. Women not voting seemed to work well. We are evolving as the human race right? I mean a woman could be president soon...

A MtF can go into a men's room stall, lock the door, and sit down to pee. Oh, that makes him/her uncomfortable.

and upon exiting they can and do get harassed and threatened and sometimes even assaulted because of their appearance

So what if a MtF using the women's restroom makes some women uncomfortable. Too bad, right?

I have not found that at all. I know it happens but usually no one cares. In fact women seem to be at ease when I am there using the mirror or washing afterward. I don't think any have ever been afraid when I am in a stall. Certainly I don't know of any reports where a TG was beaten or assaulted by women.

These are all straw arguments that are easily dispelled by education and eliminating falsehoods. That if we are to believe we are actually evolving into a more civilized world, we need to eliminate the hurdles. I have one silly question...when you send your son into a men's room do you ever consider that they may be assaulted? If so what do you do? If you send your daughter into a women's room do you fear the same? Less so. Why? Because we have educated our son's (and the men they become) to think of elimination as a sexual thing when it is a bodily function. That trying to cop a look at panties (really guys? why?) or a breast (which in 99% of the cases women how in a restroom anyway) is a sexual turn on. We instill THAT our boys. What do we instill into the girls? That all boys are perverts. Show of hands here, how many men (which as I understand a great number of CDs consider themselves) have EVER thought about going into a women's restroom for sexual purposes? Straw argument. You know the earth is flat too right? I have been in men's rooms when women come in and use the stalls. No one freaked out. Amazing and I bet that those women just came in to catch a gander of guy's stuff. Ever been to Paris? They used to pee in little metal things on the street...no one died that I know.

Do you think a little sign on the door is enough to keep a pervert out? Yeah it probably does because the pervert is a law abiding citizen who follows all the...uh huh. Weak arguments against this.

[Marcelle]

Isha:

If you are presenting like a woman, I can't imagine why you would risk your safety be going into a Men's loo.

WHO KNOWS what bits dangle into the bowl behind that door?

Live who you are and act accordingly, that is my take.

- MM

Hi MM,

That was the moral of my tale. Some here believe that it is better for these young TGs to use their "gender birth" restroom vice the gender they present. If they do, it is likely they will get harassed or worse.

Hugs

Isha

[Katey888]

Soooo.... Lori's dealt with all the individual niggles very thoroughly, I'd say...

I think it's simple:

If a country, a state, a school board - and ultimately a society - accepts that some of us (including legal minors) are TG who have a preferential gender presentation, then it is an absurdity not to let them use the restroom that aligns with their preferred presentation if no unisex restrooms are available. Of course, one lad dressing on Halloween does not make them TG... the important criteria there is that it's "the gender identity that the student exclusively and consistently asserts at school."

You'd let TG teenagers present as female (or vice versa) and then insist they use the boys..? Hypocrisy...!

And you don't mean to tell me that nobody else is aware of other males going into the girls loos at school as a dare?? It happens already - and it still wouldn't be right in those circumstances..

I would say a society with institutions that adopts these views is maturing.

Katey x

[Promethea]

Um...no. It i a site for the support of everyone. It is a Transgender site with sections for transsexuals and crossdressers (as well as Spouses an transmen) Also (as noted later here) transgender is crossdressers.. This is why it is IMPORTANT that we all use the same definitions. So I assume you are TS (which is part of being TG) and I agree we can't skitter off and play male when we are being discriminated against

I'm sorry, I tend to be a bit tomato tomahto sometimes, and I still can't grasp the supposed difference between TG and TS. The way I understand it, CDers are not, necessarily, TG, but well, regardless of that, the name of the forum is not transgender.com nor transexual.com, it's crossdressers.com, and the tagline doesn't mention TS. I wasn't here at the start, but I imagine the sections for TS people were added later. Just the name of the forum will not attract that many TS members as CDs (I just googled "transsexual support forum" and this forum wasn't on the first page of results - maybe the SEO needs to be worked on). The fact is that, judging by the number of posts, most members seem not to be TS. CDs come in very different flavours, some closer to being TS, some being just straight guys in dresses (I'm not talking about passing) who never left their home en femme, who see themselves and everyonelse in here as men (except the transmen, those are seen as women, of course), who have bought the idea that what they do is wrong. The experiences a CD and a TS person go through are different, so they may or may not be able to develop empathy.

There is no logic to make us expect every member of this forum to be supportive of us TS folks. Some of them are, but not all by any means. And some are just a-holes, like in any group of people.

Edit: oh, and there are and have been women presidents for quite a few years in countries inhabited by the human race

[mechamoose]

Promethia:

What/who do you identify as in your most private moments?

How do you present/identify in your day to day life?

We have the right to be OURSELVES. Social considerations and norms be damned. I don't have to apologize for who and what I am. I may like you. but you have not EARNED the right to challenge that.

I'm a girl in a bull male body. I don't need your approval before I continue to be me.

We 'cross the streams'. We challenge assumptions. We are outliers... just being ourselves.

That isn't a crime.

- MM

[Promethea]

Moose, please read my posts again, I have not said anything remotely close to what you're implying. I'm actally saying almost the same as you.

On my last post I'm only talking about being surprised when some people here act the way they do.

I don't expect everyone here to be supportive, nice or sympathetic, so when some people are not I'm not disappointed.

I haven't challenged you nor what you are (and I agree you don't need my approval nor anybody elses, which is why when I talked about the word approval I put it between quotation marks).

I am a woman (I'm past the "girl" age). A trans woman. I wear skirts and dresses all the time to make my gender clear and unambiguous, but I don't "pass" and I don't try to. I don't apologize for "not passing" (I keep my body issues to myself and the mirror, I can beat myself enough, I don't need others to beat me even more). That doesn't make me (or any of us) any less of a woman.