Nuture/Nature and the Girl Lizard Brain (GLB)

[Stephanie47]

I cannot believe how many of you logged in so early in the morning or is it late at night. Were you all standing in line waiting for the doors to open for another Black Friday shopping experience? Like banging away on a cell phone or tablet or whatever gizmos you got that I don't have?

Anyway, yes this issue has been beaten to death. I have pondered this for five decades. I think a shrink will analyze this to death. I really think you'd have to track a child at birth and watch his or her development with concealed audio and visual surveillance. For myself I don't have a clue.

But, I have now adopted my wife's theory. It is as valid as any other. And, since she subscribes to it, it works for me. She believes many of us (ME! ME! ME!) have lived a past life and that life (ME AGO! ME AGO! ME AGO!) has affected me! Praise the goddesses! I was a gorgeous clothes hog sexy woman in a past life and SHE (ME) has imprinted all this desire to emulate her. Wait, I'm not emulating her! I am her. She is me! More coffee please!

Anyway, who can disprove that I am not under the guiding influence of a woman from a past life? It makes total sense to me!

[Lynn Marie]

I'm sorry, way too many words on this subject. Give it rest. It tired me out and now I need a rest!

[Isabella Ross]

Uhhh, Stephanie, science is founded on several underlying principles. Foremost among these is that no one has to disprove your theory. The onus is on you to prove it.

[Donnagirl]

Isha,

So it's all in the hypothalamus, eh.... Fight or flight... Frock or jock... You might be onto something there....

[Jackie7]

"young men who experience early sexual arousal either through gender role play or use of female items of clothing "

It is easy to underestimate the importance of imprinting, and even easier to misinterpret and misunderstand the twisty turns it can take during a lifelong dragon chase (nice phrase, Isha). It's the only thing of course, but it is something very powerful, and often suppressed from conscious memory because of the shaming our culture lays onto adolescent sexuality. One is require to take responsibility for forces one cannot understand let alone explain. The argument for "nature" can be seen as a desire to avoid being blamed and shamed by finding a cause that lies outside personal responsibility. My 2 cents.

[Lorileah]

*raises hand* will any of this be on the final?

[Isabella Ross]

"young men who experience early sexual arousal either through gender role play or use of female items of clothing "

It is easy to underestimate the importance of imprinting, and even easier to misinterpret and misunderstand the twisty turns it can take during a lifelong dragon chase (nice phrase, Isha). It's the only thing of course, but it is something very powerful, and often suppressed from conscious memory because of the shaming our culture lays onto adolescent sexuality. One is require to take responsibility for forces one cannot understand let alone explain. The argument for "nature" can be seen as a desire to avoid being blamed and shamed by finding a cause that lies outside personal responsibility. My 2 cents.

That's ridiculous. So imprinting can explain being transgendered? I suppose imprinting can explain sexual orientation as well? Ergo, we're all brainwashed at an early age? Poppycock.

[Jackie7]

Come on Bridgette I didn't say any of that. Imprinting helps explain a powerful interest in female things.

[Teresa]

Jackie and Bridgette, Isha did deal with nurture and imprinting very well, so why fall out over it !
One thing I will add since being on the forum a little imprinting has rubbed off on me or maybe it's given me a little more confidence with Cding ! I think it's a good thing not bad because I'm coming to,terms with it more through that !

I do think that some of made too light of a well written thread, if some are tired of the subject then don't read it or put in caustic comments, to me it makes a lot of sense in a well written way ! Again thanks for that Isha !!

[Katey888]

Nice to see you back with another thesis, professor..

I like it - it makes a lot of sense to me to... When I was asking the question 'IF it was hereditary' (Rather than 'Do you think it is hereditary..') I was teasing out the ethical perspective rather than the scentific - so thanks for expanding this side of things.

A number of important points have come out in this discussion too, I think:

One other thing: you and several others have made the argument that, "There's no history in my family of crossdressing or transgenderism, so therefore the answer can't be hereditary." Really? I successfully concealed this from every person on the planet for three decades or more. Many of you have done the same. You're telling me that you don't think that your ancestors might have been able to achieve the same thing, and taken their secret to the grave? Particularly in a much more conservative era? Come on.

I think this is a really good point and may explain why historical observations (such as diaries or journals) don't seem to have thrown up much about CDing in the common man. But there may be another reason that can sit alongside your theory (I think) and Marie touched on it here:

There may be a genetic aspect but I think hormones are the most likely culprit.

I think it should emphasised that the term 'genetic' doesn't necessarily mean 'hereditary'. Genetic abnormalities can also be caused by a chemical agent (chemical mutagens) or radiation (generally ionising radiation) as well as natural, random mutations - the way science and technology has developed both in the use of chemicals in the past 100 years (as fertiliser, drugs, etc.) and incidental radiation (eg. the nuclear tests of the 1940s-60s) can't be discounted as potential factors in all sorts of health areas - why not a potential factor for this too? It seems fairly definitive now that anti-androgenic chemicals are responsible for the feminisation of male fish and are also suspect in testicular dysgenesis syndrome (a range of male reproductive problems) which is a growing issue in industrialised countries - we just don't know the long term effects of any recent developments either...

I don't get the feeling that many people here are looking for an 'excuse' as to any probable cause - it doesn't really matter what causes it other than at its root, it doesn't seem to just be 'free will' as a choice of pastime (too much stigma - too many societal negatives) - but if the cause was a man-made (irony.. ) one rather than natural, that may change how this is both accepted and can have its impact modified in the future... The incidence might increase or diminish...

And why do we torture ourselves with this analysis? Probably for the same reasons humans have wanted to know 'why' about anything and the product of those inquisitive minds is the world we live in today, for better or worse... some of us enjoy exercising our minds - but it's clearly not compulsory...

And neither is reading it or having to make a comment - so keep it polite or just keep away...

Katey x

[Adriana Moretti]

You need to write a book....become an author of CD books....I think today you can do those e-books pretty easily..( just an idea)...and another observation because I noticed others say it this time....have you noticed EVERY Sat morning you go all deep?? So while having morning coffee, you fry our brains?? I usually just read and go wow....I cant think right now...its Sat morning.....but the "Girl With The Lizard Brain" was so genius I had to read it and reply....Now I will go finish my fist cup of coffee too

[Jamie Lynn]

Your new Avatar Isha!!!

[Rhian]

I read an article were a particularly political correct couple, had a child and decided it would be gender neutral. The sex of the child was male. The child wore dresses and played with dolls and the politically correct feminist beamed at how gender was a social construct but in reality the child had been wanting to play with boy things but the parent had been discouraging him simply to prove her point. So it seems there has to be at least some element of nature when despite the mother actively seeking to discourage his masculine side, he still wanted to do typical boy things.

[docrobbysherry]

Ok, Isha. Let's start with the GLB, (girl lizard brain). That just------. OMG! U almost did it. Almost roped me into your most insane post!

Since I'm not drinking, I'm out. Just going to wish u luck and hope u feel better soon.

[LilSissyStevie]

Here's a blog post from a while back that debunks a lot of the nonsense surrounding measured gender differences. 'nuff said!

http://sugarandslugs.wordpress.com/2011/02/

[Zylia]

Whether it is genetic, prenatal hormones, nurture or something in the water, most theories on the "origin of transness" suffer from inherent causal reductionism.

As a side note, some people think they have been abducted by aliens at some time in the past. Just because the rest of us know those stories aren't true doesn't make it any less true for them. Funny how our mind works.

[Gillian Gigs]

Being someone who has spent most of their life asking the "why" question, this to me is the most logical reason for why this eclectic group exists. Thank you, I agree with your comments based on my own research into this "phenomenon". The hormones that washed through us making our brains in the womb would have an effect us, then there is the effect of what the hormones are doing now. This thinking will also explain why there are various degrees within this group. This make sense to me, and helps explain this thing I call a "quirk".

[Tinkerbell-GG]

. Just because the rest of us know those stories aren't true doesn't make it any less true for them. Funny how our mind works.

Good point. I actually doubt a scientific reason (if ever found) would help anyone with this issue as the truth is clearly subjective. People believe what they need to believe. It's just human nature to desire a more complex reason for something than say 'a bra in the laundry hamper lead to fulltime crossdressing'. If the nature/environmental explanation was ever proven, would anyone here really want to admit that serious crossdressing started because they were bored/curious/horny? Yet, why are these reasons any less valid than biology?

I like Isha's post though, and the lizard brain surely works for women too, as I know we can be as masculine as the next guy. We just don't seem to compartmentalize these elements of ourselves into a separate identity. I mean, when this GLB pops in and says hello, why is the first thought - 'I must put on a bra and dress and call myself Jane.' Why is this GLB so dang obssessed with the material trappings rather than suggesting y'all go and cuddle a kitten or something?? It would be like my BLB stepping in and I suddenly feel like hunting deer in a cowboy hat. But my masculine side is more about inner strength and leadership than physical presentation.

Okay, huge stereotypes there, I know, but I do love kittens

[Stephanie47]

I don't have to prove anything. My theory or is it my wife's theory makes just as much sense as all the dribble on this subject. Heck, there's even a television program on one of the cable channels concerning children you have detailed recollections of the past lives. If science has proof of the reason why anyone is a cross dresser, gay or lesbian then I suppose we can effect a cure, if someone was so inclined to be "cured."

Uhhh, Stephanie, science is founded on several underlying principles. Foremost among these is that no one has to disprove your theory. The onus is on you to prove it.

My theory? Like I said I don't have a clue.

Maybe, when I decided I loved the feel of nylon fabric and put my mother's slips on, I thought a male child does not due this, therefore I must add more women clothing to mask the boy, who should not wear such attire????? Forgive the run on sentence.

Or, maybe when my mother told me several times I was suppose to be a girl, because she and dad already had a first boy son, I needed to kiss up to her by being a pseudo son.

Maybe, there are genes to answer the query.

Maybe, in the womb I was exposed to some sort of chemicals.

Maybe, I do have some sort of dual personality that manifests itself in dressing as a woman.

All I know is society/psychiatrists have decided gays and lesbians are "naturally" born. And, there are men and women who were born into the wrong physical body. I don't believe anyone has really come up with a certified proven reason why this has happened. Part of the reason for stopping persecuting these groups is nobody would really want to endure such discrimination and angst in the real world.

And, so it is with me, the cross dresser. Life would have been a lot easier for six decades if I was not a cross dresser. I did not choose this affliction.

So, my wife's belief in past lives affecting a current life is just as valid as all the dribble I constantly read.

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

WOW . . . I did not expect this amount of response and some very great responses they are . . . THANKS. I do want to reiterate, this is not me saying this is the way it is and you have to believe it but more so this is what I have found in my own studies and it makes sense to me. What makes sense to you may be different be it past lives, alien abductions, nature, genes or you just don't care. So no harm no foul if you don't agree but I am set on my path to understand as much as I can about being TG (hence all my social experiments).

Another distinction I would like to make is that my GLB hypothesis is not what causes the dressing. I believe the brain is more ordered female and as such drives a TG to explore that side of gender according to the socially defined concept of what it means to be a woman. This could explain why there is such a huge variety in dressing behaviors. Some here dress according to their concept of femininity as that what makes them feel good (e.g., fetish dressing vs Plain Jane) and to act in their definition of what it means to be a woman (e.g., doing housework, shopping, getting nails done). We (TGs) were for the most part not socialized as girls/women (nature) so our understanding is limited to what we observe (i.e., we never lived it) from the girls/women around us. So if the GLB is active some may just go with a concept they remember and makes them feel good (their definition of being femme) others might want to push the boundary and explore outside of the initial concept of being femme and enter day to day functioning en femme. So in effect you are seeing an interaction between nature (brain structure) and environment.

. . . Im opening my eyes, spotting a new entry by gf Isha, and thinking..."oh good! A new anecdote or humorous adventure to enjoy"
But instead....no...its that dreaded 7AM philosophy class that you would have slept through in bed at home, were it not for the fact the professor was sooooo hot.
Sigh...
So, yes...read the whole thing. Do I get a gold star, hot professor?

GOLD STAR for Sammie!

. . . Lizard brain - would that be gecko (for hanging on) or chameleon (to blend in)??

Hi Alicia . . . LOL I am going to go with chameleon

Isha,

So it's all in the hypothalamus, eh.... Fight or flight... Frock or jock... You might be onto something there....

Hi Donna . . . LOL . . . Love it!

*raises hand* will any of this be on the final?

Hi Lorileah only one question.

If a TG travelling in a eastward direction in a HUMVEE at 100 kph passes a store advertising LBDs on sale but it takes 20 minutes for her GLB to scream "Hey LBDs on sale!!!" but the nearest off ramp is 150 kilometers away . . . How long will it take the TG with GLB in the HUMVEE to get to the store and buy the LBD?

...and another observation because I noticed others say it this time....have you noticed EVERY Sat morning you go all deep?? So while having morning coffee, you fry our brains?? I usually just read and go wow....I cant think right now...its Sat morning.....but the "Girl With The Lizard Brain" was so genius I had to read it and reply....Now I will go finish my fist cup of coffee too

Hi Adriana,

LOL . . . I normally do an early morning run on Saturdays and that is when I tend to get a bit introspective unless I have chase to Husky through the woods because he decided not to come back . . . then introspection goes out the door. Glad you enjoyed the GLB.

Ok, Isha. Let's start with the GLB, (girl lizard brain). That just------. OMG! U almost did it. Almost roped me into your most insane post!

Since I'm not drinking, I'm out. Just going to wish u luck and hope u feel better soon.

Hi Sherry,

Darn it . . . almost is not good enough. I will have to try harder next time

. . . However, I think Alice-V made a great point: to the best of my limited knowledge, genetics and hereditary traits are not necessarily the same. We're all quick to agree that all of our physical traits result from genetic expression. Why is it such a stretch to extrapolate this to our mental and personality traits?

Hi Bridgette,

Traits which have a genetic predisposition tend to be physical in humans and for the most part not behavioral. Inherited behavioral traits can be seen is some animals . . . for example my Husky's instinct to pull or a cat puffing out it's fur in response to a threat. Francis Galton was a pioneer in the area of Behavioral Genetics in the 19th century to explain a genetic link to behavior (twin studies) however this field of research died out in the 20th century as it became apparent that environment was more responsible for behavioral traits expressed in humans. Now an area of psychiatric genetics todays has found a genetic link to disorders like schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder and alcoholism but has found nothing in relation to TG. However, the literature does agree that most behavioral traits are learned after birth.

The other area Alice V touched on is that not all traits tend to be genetically inherited (i.e., gene mutations). Gene mutations occur in two ways: they can be inherited from a parent or acquired during a person’s lifetime. Mutations that are passed from parent to child are called hereditary mutations or germline mutations (because they are present in the egg and sperm cells, which are also called germ cells). This type of mutation is present throughout a person’s life in virtually every cell in the body. Mutations that occur only in an egg or sperm cell, or those that occur just after fertilization, are called new (de novo) mutations. De novo mutations may explain genetic disorders in which an affected child has a mutation in every cell, but has no family history of the disorder (some examples of de novo mutations include some types of muscular dystrophy, haemophilia and type 1 neurofibromatosis). Other gene mutations occur after birth as a result of exposure to certain environmental toxins (e.g., radiation). The thing I have found is that most genetic based literature talks about disorders, disease and whatnot. I cannot for a moment believe that being TG is a disorder or disease caused by genetics (inherited or de novo).

That is why the hormone wash makes better sense to me. The brain structure is different causing the GLB to drive the behavior. Now if you environment you are raised in predisposes you to dressing then it is plausible we are seeing a interaction effect between nature (GLB) and nurture (environment). However if the GLB is extremely vocal it is unlikely that environment will make a difference as she is going to want out. This could explain why men who are raised very macho still go on to try and explore their femme side (strong GLB). On the other hand if you have a less vocal GLB but your environment is more femme it gives the ability to express the GLB and learn behavior associated with being a woman.

Hugs all and thanks again for your responses.

Isha

[Stephanie Julianna]

I have always said that my female side was always a part of me since I cannot rember a time, at least from the age three that I did not want to dress and be with girls. With that being said, the question of nurture is still out there. As a very young child, my parents always fauned over my sisters and female cousins raving about their dresses and hair and how pretty they looked. That combined with the fact that until high school, most of my circle of friends were girls. I lived on a street in a Long Island town that only had girls that were my age. There were a few brothers of theirs but they were much younger. So I played hop scotch, jumped rope and played other girl games a lot. I was tough to beat once I got the hang of it. Once I created a challenge with them that ended up with me wearing a red chiffon over satin party dress that belonged to the girl next door. Since I was never a big kid, it fit perfect. We played games at her house all afternoon since the challenge was to see how long I could last (HA HA) in a dress. It was actually the first time I wore an age appropriate dress that fit since my sisters' dresses were for high school girls and I was in fifth grade at the time. I was not a girly boy but preferred the company of girls to boys and still do to this day. My wife thinks that I went toward crossdressing to garner my parents attention but if that is true than why didn't I come out to them? Actually I did dress once for my mother, a long story, and she "poopooed" it as a passing phase that I would get over. We never spoke of it again. So what is my take on "nurture-nature"? I still think that for me it was nature (wife still says nurture. However, I am sure that there are many girls out there that can fall into the nurture category. The variety of possibilities must be endless.

[Michelle Deere]

Sorry Isha, no earth shattering response from me. Only to say I loved reading your OP and agree wholeheartedly with your theory.
I have however, decided to not to pursue the "why", but rather concentrate on the here and now and learn to accept myself and this part of me.
Michelle

[Mia Brankovic]

"Oh my...I'm being torn between Science and Stephanie's position:

Based strictly on the theatrical value, Stephanie's theory sounds more lucrative: It would make for a better story...It's got Love, a Goddess', a gorgeous clothes hog sexy woman, and the Surreal-ness of fate...I mean, if we thro' in a chariot race...we may have something?"

Mia

I cannot believe how many of you logged in so early in the morning or is it late at night. Were you all standing in line waiting for the doors to open for another Black Friday shopping experience? Like banging away on a cell phone or tablet or whatever gizmos you got that I don't have?

Anyway, yes this issue has been beaten to death. I have pondered this for five decades. I think a shrink will analyze this to death. I really think you'd have to track a child at birth and watch his or her development with concealed audio and visual surveillance. For myself I don't have a clue.

But, I have now adopted my wife's theory. It is as valid as any other. And, since she subscribes to it, it works for me. She believes many of us (ME! ME! ME!) have lived a past life and that life (ME AGO! ME AGO! ME AGO!) has affected me! Praise the goddesses! I was a gorgeous clothes hog sexy woman in a past life and SHE (ME) has imprinted all this desire to emulate her. Wait, I'm not emulating her! I am her. She is me! More coffee please!

Anyway, who can disprove that I am not under the guiding influence of a woman from a past life? It makes total sense to me!

[Isabella Ross]

Isha, the theory you support has credibility. I think we can all agree that A) conclusive answers are not yet known and B) hormonal abnormalities and genetics are the two most likely causes, as opposed to environmental causes (although I'll concede that environment may play a role in encouraging someone who is predisposed at birth to be transgendered.

However, I'll add this: there are many small pieces of the puzzle that, when taken together, make a strong case for genetics as the determining influence for transgenderism in the fetus, long before hormones can play a role. Hopefully, some day, someone will be able to put the pieces together. Here's a small sampling:


1. Gender identity disorder in twins: a review of the case report literature.
Heylens G1, De Cuypere G, Zucker KJ, Schelfaut C, Elaut E, Vanden Bossche H, De Baere E, T'Sjoen G.
Author information

Abstract
INTRODUCTION:
The etiology of gender identity disorder (GID) remains largely unknown. In recent literature, increased attention has been attributed to possible biological factors in addition to psychological variables.
AIM:
To review the current literature on case studies of twins concordant or discordant for GID.
METHODS:
A systematic, comprehensive literature review.
RESULTS:
Of 23 monozygotic female and male twins, nine (39.1%) were concordant for GID; in contrast, none of the 21 same-sex dizygotic female and male twins were concordant for GID, a statistically significant difference (P=0.005). Of the seven opposite-sex twins, all were discordant for GID.
CONCLUSIONS:
These findings suggest a role for genetic factors in the development of GID.
© 2011 International Society for Sexual Medicine.


2. Reuters News Service 10/20/2003

Refuting 30 years of scientific theory that solely credits hormones for brain development, UCLA scientists have identified 54 genes that may explain the different organization of male and female brains. Published in the October edition of the journal Molecular Brain Research, the UCLA discovery suggests that sexual identity is hard-wired into the brain before birth and may offer physicians a tool for gender assignment of babies born with ambiguous genitalia.

"Our findings may help answer an important question - why do we feel male or female?" explained Dr. Eric Vilain, assistant professor of human genetics and urology at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA and a pediatrician at UCLA's Mattel Children's Hospital. "Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome."

Since the 1970s, scientists have believed that estrogen and testosterone were wholly responsible for sexually organizing the brain. In other words, a fetal brain simply needed to produce more testosterone to become male. Recent evidence, however, indicates that hormones cannot explain everything about the sexual differences between male and female brains.

Vilain and his colleagues explored whether genetic influences could explain the variations between male and female brains. Using two genetic testing methods, they compared the production of genes in male and female brains in embryonic mice - long before the animals developed sex organs.

To their surprise, the researchers found 54 genes produced in different amounts in male and female mouse brains, prior to hormonal influence. Eighteen of the genes were produced at higher levels in the male brains; 36 were produced at higher levels in the female brains.

"We didn't expect to find genetic differences between the sexes' brains," admitted Vilain. "But we discovered that the male and female brains differed in many measurable ways, including anatomy and function."

In one intriguing example, the two hemispheres of the brain appeared more symmetrical in females than in males. According to Vilain, the symmetry may improve communication between both sides of the brain, leading to enhanced verbal expressiveness in females.

"This anatomical difference may explain why women can sometimes articulate their feelings more easily than men," he said.

Overall, the UCLA team's findings counter the theory that only hormones are responsible for organizing the brain.

"Our research implies that genes account for some of the differences between male and female brains," noted Vilain. "We believe that one's genes, hormones and environment exert a combined influence on sexual brain development."

The scientists will pursue further studies to distinguish specific roles in the brain's sexual maturation for each of the 54 different genes they identified. What their research reveals may provide insight into how the brain determines gender identity.

"Our findings may explain why we feel male or female, regardless of our actual anatomy," said Vilain. "These discoveries lend credence to the idea that being transgender --- feeling that one has been born into the body of the wrong sex -- is a state of mind.

"From previous studies, we know that transgender persons possess normal hormonal levels," he added. "Their gender identity likely will be explained by some of the genes we discovered."

Vilain's findings on the brain's sex genes may also ease the plight of parents of intersex infants, and help their physicians to assign gender with greater accuracy. Mild cases of malformed genitalia occur in 1 percent of all births - about 3 million cases. More severe cases - where doctors can't inform parents whether they had a boy or girl -- occur in one in 3,000 births.

"If physicians could predict the gender of newborns with ambiguous genitalia at birth, we would make less mistakes in gender assignment," said Vilain.

Lastly, Vilain proposes that the UCLA findings may help to explain the origin of homosexuality.

"It's quite possible that sexual identity and physical attraction is 'hard-wired' by the brain," he noted. "If we accept this concept, we must dismiss the myth that homosexuality is a 'choice' and examine our civil legal system accordingly."

The UCLA study was supported by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, the National Science Foundation and with start-up funds from the UCLA Department of Urology. Vilain's co-authors included Phoebe Dewing, Steve Horvath and Tao Shi, all of UCLA.

Molecular Brain Research, Oct. 21 issue, Vol. 118, pgs. 82-90.

[Marcelle]

Hi Bridgette,

I am not saying genes are not a potential but these are two studies (which I have read) and have yet to convince me. In one study the case of twins authors cannot point out which genetic factors are culpable they extrapolate that it may be genetic. It is also plausible that hormonal washing may occur and be more selective when it comes to fraternal twins. Specifically the hormonal wash may have occurred early in egg development and affect on one of the dizygotic twins may have been greater than the other. However of the monozygotic were washed early in the development (pre-split) this could explain the concordance for GID. Not saying this is the case but there is always the possibility but the authors did not explore that in the paper.

The second paper is extrapolating from mice to humans and while this is sound scientific practice they have yet to identify these genetic markers in humans. In addition they don't discount the hormonal wash theory but posit that genes may predispose some to the hormonal wash during the development of the limbic system (on that I can agree).

However, I still going to stick to my belief about the hormone changes and limbic system development as it makes more sense to me at present. Not discounting genes as the sole reason . . . just not convinced by the science yet.

Hugs

Isha