Nuture/Nature and the Girl Lizard Brain (GLB)

[Teresa]

Isha,
I don't want to side track the thread too much but has any research been done on primates as our nearest descendants ?
I apologise that maybe I should have done some research but are humans the only ones to have this level of gender anomalies ?
I've always been intrigued by the fact that after WW1 the birth rate for males in France was much higher until a natural balance of male to female was achieved . So what influences the reproductive system to achieve that ? I also read in a paper that homosexuality varies depending on the the birth rate ! I have doubts about that one because some countries struggle to control their birth rate !
I suppose the point I'm making is are the differences in the brain arbitary or is there something in natural selection ?

The bottom line is we are not lying when we say we can't help our Cding. we are somewhere between male and female ! The feelgood chemicals released by our dressing are superfluous to where we are on the gender line !

[Meghan]

Hi Isha,

A very thought-provoking post. I have been away from this forum for almost 2 years and it's refreshing to return to such a unique and well thought-out perspective.

I've been dealing with my duality since I was little - it emerged around kindergarten or first grade. However, without a doubt my female side is by far the most primal - my male side is more controlled and abstract/aesthetic/contrived. I don't think I will ever know if that's a result of genetics or nurture...but it is what it is.

Now I have something new to think about!

Meghan

[Kate Simmons]

I could've come back with a long convoluted observation but decided to take the easy route by saying "Just call me Liz."

[Claire Cook]

Isha,

Thanks again for this very thoughtful post! Let's accept the CD / TG / TS spectrum we are part of, and the range of GLB's that we have.(IMHO, that we are lucky to have!)

Hugs,

Claire

[Katie Russell]

Hi

For this those of you with the time I think it was worth researching epigenetic. It seems that these little markers on our DNA can have a huge impact on who we are. Scientist believe they could be responsible for sexual orientation so why not gender variation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/1...our-genes.html

Katie

I was thinking about it further and just wanted to add to my previous post. In the article they talk about the epic-markers being used to either turn on or off the gene but also adjust the volume. That would account for the differing spectrum from full transition to mild CDing if it can affect the 'gender' gene. I read in another article that scientists believe that the epi-marker maybe responsible for changing sexual orientation, the so called 'gay gene'. It is obviously a new science but does seem to have some explanation of why we are as we are as the maker can be turned on not only in the womb but by other life events. I'm no scientist and would love to hear from anyone who has an alternative view.

Katie

[Alicia S]

i'm not specifically genetics trained but I am a biologist. From my limited perspective I find it highly unlikely that these issues are controlled by a single gene (even making a huge assumption that the cause is only genetic in the first place!) Developmental thinking shows much more flexibility to explain complex issues and covers ranges rather than black/white gene on/off.

Alicia

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I really believe that that there is some sort of chemical imbalance that contributes somewhat to my condition.

I don't drink coffee, so have no excuse for being dopey, but here goes anyway.

Gretchen's chemical imbalance theory is both right and wrong IMO. It's right in that chemicals are the fuel that run the brain - water's a chemical if it comes to that - but it's only societal conditioning which tells Gretchen that her blend of chemicals (actually it's the brain isn't it, rather than the chemicals?) are out of balance.

Homosexuality between men was entirely normal in Ancient Greece, and there was a special term for homosexuality between an older and a far younger man - I can't remember the word because I don't drink coffee - but it was seen as both normal and healthy. Are we saying Gretchen that all the men in Ancient Greece were chemically imbalanced? If so, I wish some of today's architects could be similarly imbalanced.

Isha's theory, spectacularly caffeine-influenced though it may be, doesn't bring me any closer to understanding why I love girls' clothes. If anything I tend to believe in nurture over nature, since I was raised largely by my mother, with a fairly lousy and frequently absent father, and a lot of time to myself to explore possibilities. Nowhere yet on this site have I read any mention of Oedipus Complex, but in my case it would explain a lot. I sided with my mother from an early age, and especially so from age 10 onward, when my father left (without saying goodbye to me- hello Dr Freud) and although in a sense I became the man of the house, I was a sheltered, gentle kid and machismo was never my thing. I never forgave my father and I was definitely something of a mummy's boy. What made me start trying on her underwear I'll never know, but I think I began to identify more with women than men as a result of the absent father.

There were macho role models, as Isha had, but they were only ever temporarily present- mum was discreet in her many liaisons and basically I was with her most of the time I wasn't in school. We lived remotely so as an only child I grew up independent and focused on her, and I've always supposed it was that female influence which made me the way I am. I've always felt more comfortable with older people and still many of my closest friends are a generation older than me.

If I'm imbalanced chemically, which I dispute, at least I'm not crippled with the guilt and shame which some of us seem to feel- and for that I am very grateful. I was raised to treat people kindly, to look for the fun in life, and to please myself up to the point that it negatively affects others. Sometimes I have gone beyond that limit, it's true. But I don't think it's because of any chemical imbalance, I've always put it down to the anger, the chip on the shoulder (particularly against authority) which I got from my resentment towards my father.

I have found great comfort in crossdressing, like many others, and the only other theory I have about its cause is that my mother has expressed several times that she wanted a girl. I know she loves me deeply, and I'm not insecure about that, but we do take things on, we are influenceable and perhaps I just want to please mummy. The irony is that mum is not sympathetic to gays or deviants from society's norm. Definitely no Greek blood there. And that in a nutshell is the paradox- part of me wants to be her little girl, but I know she'd hate to see me crossdressed or come out as gay. Luckily for all of us I met a woman who I love and want to remain with- my greatest hope being that she will come to accept my CD comfortably. At that point I'd have to look pretty hard to find something about my life that wasn't ideal.

Isha, I like you greatly, but I'm sorry dear- I'm not taking up coffee just to please you.

[Tina_gm]

Nikky@ #58- I am not among those who had no early nurturing aspects which MADE me this way. If anything, it was reversed. I had a wonderful father. He was a mans man in the sense of family 1st no matter what. He was not a physically large man... but when it came to his responsibilities, he was second to none. He was never too busy for me. We had all kinds of time together on weekends when he wasn't working. He made time for me on weekends, he would work early then him and I would go do things. I cannot say enough good things about my father. My mother on the other hand... but yet here I am. If anything according to the nurture arguments, I would disown any crossdressing based on my past and how I was raised. Because of my past, I should never even want to, but I do. Gender issues just like sexual orientatiation issues come from birth. We are what we are. It is nurture that helps with when and how we accept these things IMO

[AngelaYVR]

I just wanted to chime in and say that my great uncle Tommy died wearing a pair of lacy knickers. It was spoken of in later years with incredulous looks and mild laughter. But up until that point, nobody had a clue.

[Lorileah]

has any research been done on primates as our nearest descendants ?
I apologise that maybe I should have done some research but are humans the only ones to have this level of gender anomalies ?

Depends on your definition? When a male wolf decides to not fight for top dog position and urinates or rolls over...is that a gender anomaly? Since you bring up primates there are some who take on the female role in both societal presentation And/or sexual. Are they gay? Well the same monkeys have been seen trying to copulate with a female in the pack. So being anthropomorphic on these studies doesn't work. That is why it is also difficult to prove the nature vs nurture arguments. If you never KNEW there was clothing for women, would you still want to wear it?

Arguments of CDs vs TSs is different. Would a CD know what they are missing if they didn't see it? A TS on the other hand would still feel that something isn't right, clothing aside.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Nikki, your story is exactly like my H's. He's firmly in the 'nurture' camp, too. Having little children myself, I can say that some of the things kids get up to make a little boy finding comfort and identity in his mother's clothing outright boring. Seriously, the nurture path to crossdressing is a fairly easy one to map so I'm always a little surprised at the reluctance for so many to admit it DOES happen. Most boys had a mother. Most mothers wore women's clothing. Its not a difficult thing to start with the right circumstances and motivation. In my H's case, he was outright rejected by his father and his mother took up the slack. He worshipped her, yet she had a natural closeness with his sister as they could wear the same outfits etc. He felt rejected again every time they connected this way, so the day his mother dressed him in his sisters clothing becasue his were dirty, is the day he felt included. He even admits now how silly that is as his mother and sister thought he looked silly. But aside from the mortifying embarrassment a typical boy feels, he also felt a part of their world for a second. The only world he knew, I might add, and the one that made him feel safe and not rejected. It became a self soothing habit (still can be) but he rarely dressed until puberty when it became sexual.

To say my H's crossdressing is genetic is like saying a girl who cuts herself because she was sexually abused has a genetic condition. SOME crossdressing might be inborn, but some is born of life experience and this seemed the most logical and available coping strategy at the time. Doesn't make it any less real or determined than a GLB - it just is.

[Marcelle]

Tink,

Then how do you explain all like myself who had a relatively normal upbringing when it came to male/female gender roles. My uncles were ever present in my upbringing . . . kind and gentle mountain men type who never forced me to be a boy but to be a good man. Yes, I liked my sisters clothing from an early age but it was not because I saw them get dressed or watched my mother get dressed that I like to dress now. If it were truly just nature then every man who was raised purely in a female home (mothers, sisters) with little or no male role models or were rejected by their fathers would be cross dressing today and that is not the case. Yes I believe the environment you grow up in has a potential to shape the person you become but there has to be a predisposition for that behavior somewhere be it genetic, hormone wash or neurochemicals. I don't believe little boys who had no desire to dress as the opposite gender wake up one day and say "Hey, I like that pretty dress and I think I'll give it a fling and see how it feels" and even if they do, and there is no innate desire they will most likely take it off and never put it back on as it would feel weird.

So sorry . . . still can't buy the "nurture" only hypothesis.

Hugs

Isha

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Isha, actually I think I can agree with the predisposition idea. I just don't agree this disposition is necessarily about crossdressing. My H is pretty sure if it hadn't been crossdressing it would have been something else, depending on the circumstances. He's always been highly sensitive to his environment and had the situation been abusive or perhaps involved his mother disappearing instead of his father, who knows. Maybe he'd be into BDSM instead? . But his overall mental make up seems to require an 'out' so to speak, both sexually and as a self soothing technique. I have a child who is very similar to his father - not so that he's into crossdressing, but his overly sensitive mind will often turn him into a cartoon character when he's very stressed and I've had teachers tell me he spent all day as a robot or something. Is this the same as what my H went through? Who knows, though my H relates heavily to those anxious feelings my son suffers so there's definitely something innate causing them both to seek comfort in the identity of others.

Is this the only reason someone crossdresses?? Highly doubtful. I personally think there are as many reasons as there are men who do it - and maybe there's a common thread somewhere among you all. In the end, it won't matter much what we think as this is all just online waffle that will be lost in cyberspace come tomorrow. But at least we all cared enough to try and understand this crazy part of our lives. x

[PaulaQ]

I agree with your idea of the 'GLB', Isha. Maybe not quite so simplistic as that, but there are parts of your brain that are wired up needing to express femininity - whatever that means within a particular culture.

I think behavioral explanations for CDing are largely nonsense. If we are so influenced by our upbringing that we start wearing mommy's clothing, why can't behavior modification get rid of this? I'll tell you why - its for the same freaking reason we couldn't teach people not to be gay or lesbian. Because it's not a learned behavior.

There is no reason to think gender identity or expression are any different than sexual orientation and identity in terms of their ability to be influenced by behavioral influences. Indeed many of us have faced massive and terrifying social consequences and punishments for these behaviors. Do we stop? No. It just screws us up as we internalize hatred. This is more or less EXACTLY what happened to gays and lesbians. Its cruel, its a pack of lies, and it needs to stop right freaking now.

The theories that try to explain homosexuality via a behavioral model are rejected by modern science. But we wanna hang on to these ideas for gender? Well, OK then...

[Marcelle]

Hi Tink,

I can agree with you on this. As I stated in my OP, I don't say this is the sole reason and even science (genetics, biology, psychology) cannot agree on things and highly unlikely they ever will. In my case, the concept of a limbic system more ordered female makes intuitive sense to me for me. Specifically, there is something about me that is wired "female" but not 100 percent hence my requirement to time share. I still know I am male, feel male, interact male and even when I am presenting as Isha, I am still me (core personality) but there is a small part of my psyche which requires the ability to present female to the world. The presentation (i.e., how I dress, act, walk, talk) is not the compulsion for me. I present as I do because it allows the world to see me as female (well at least a close approximation) and allows me to interact in the world thusly. If women were dressing in baggy jeans, work boots and checked flannel shirts, no make-up, hair pulled back in a pony tail as a matter of standard convention, it is likely that is how I would present. My need to be and present female is predicated on whatever amount of time my GLB decides to steer the ship. Conversely when my "guy side" is at the helm I dress as a guy (i.e., I don't underdress, feminize my male wardrobe or for that matter even wear both earrings in my ears - just one).

However we (humans) are complex creatures and when it comes to behaviors there is truly no "one size" fits all. Cross dressing for some could simply be an expression of emotion/stress reduction/soothing based on recapturing the feel good moment that clothing was put on for the first time. It might have no biological drive short of neurotransmitters telling the brain "this feels good so do it again" and if your environment provides the opportunity to do this over and over again, then it could be construed as nurture. So there is no true disposition here just a collage of neurochemicals and environment (e.g., being around women/girls with more socialization leaning toward female than male) telling the mind this feels right.

Hugs

Isha

[Katie Russell]

Hi

Maybe everyone is right.

To quote from the World Health Organisation:

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index2.html

Behavioural genetics research aims to determine the role genes may play in shaping human behaviour. ‘Behavioural phenotypes’ are those patterns or sets of behaviours that are dependent on genotype. Animals, including humans, are born with innate behaviours so that they react instinctively to some environmental stimuli in a way that enhances their prospects for survival. Genes are increasingly being considered as candidates for complex behavioural traits such as sexuality and gender differences.

Behavioural traits, such as aggression or sexuality, are extremely complex and cannot be explained by one gene or genetic component. Cultural norms pertaining to gender roles and sex-related behaviours fluctuate and change with time as well as across cultures. Moreover, the existence of a gene does not guarantee the expression of that gene; indeed, expression is the product of a complex network of other genetic, developmental, biological and environmental factors. It is this complex network of interactions that constantly shape and define behaviours. Any genetic component that is found to be linked to a complex behavioural trait at most indicates a probability of that behaviour manifesting, and not that the behaviour will definitely occur. Behavioural genetics research is still in its infancy, and its capacity to identify any genetic component of behaviours, such as sex -specific conduct, is limited.

If you add that to my previous post on epigenetics then you may have an explanation of why it can be both nature and nurture. I did a bit of searching and came up with this fascinating TED talk. Have a watch and decide for yourself if we are born as we are or made or a combination of both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuahzV12mi0

Katie