illusion

[Rhian]

When I dress as a woman I feel very different, I no longer feel like a man but a woman. This might be an illusion to the outside world but to me it is very real, when i wear a dress I am a woman.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Some people like to dress up in furry costumes, or cosplay as their favorite anime or sci fi character....

Interesting point. Have you noticed that in most cases, the other identities people choose to dress up as are usually unattainable, hence the illusion the OP mentioned? Crossdressing isn't much different from wearing an animal suit or a Star Trek outfit as the chances of most men actually becoming a woman are about as achievable as becoming a squirrel or a space traveler. Sure, SRS has given the option some legs, but wow, it's really not something you would do for a bit fun! (I'm talking only about male identified CDers as the OP mentioned)

I think there's something in this though, Adriana, and when you figure out why some men want to emulate a squirrel, you'll probably figure out why others like to emulate women. There's almost something other-worldly about desiring to experience life through the eyes of another, even if it is just an illusion. Perhaps you're just more progressive than the rest of us? Or perhaps some men were squirrels in a past life

[Kate Simmons]

The art and illusion of crossdressing is basically as you say all smoke and mirrors and the art of misdirection. We could all be pretty good stage magicians when you think about it. I have never told anyone I'm a woman. That is their own conclusion based on what they see. This is why for myself it has become more or less an art form and something I have fun with. I just love spending all night at the club dancing en femme. Even so, the bottom line and reality is that I'm a guy who enjoys being a guy especially when I'm with my GF and she knows no matter how I'm dressed I'm her man.

[MissTee]

I wouldn't call it an illusion. Illusion refers to something you see. This is something I feel. Big difference

. . . Or perhaps some men were squirrels in a past life

LOL - You may be on to something, Tink.

[ReineD]

Years ago I spoke to a woman whose husband was [insert label of your choice]. This GG was supportive and her husband took it much further than most … came out to everyone in their lives, dressed most of the time, and was even on a talk show about transness. The husband was a magician if I recall, and the onstage performance was not affected by gender presentation.

Anyway, overnight he stopped. This GG told me that after all those years, the husband concluded that no matter what he did or what he looked like, he was still a male. I've read posts from other people who were at this for years, also come to this conclusion. You are not alone. I think that the enjoyment for many lies in chasing a fantasy.

To those of you who say that dressing makes you feel like a woman, please do not confuse "feeling good" with having a female gender identity.

[lynda]

thank you kate s you said it better then i can hugs lynda

iwould also thank the ggs for there imput because they know how women think . thanks lynda

[Taylor186]

People who see me out might say I'm creating an illusion but they are incorrect from my perspective. I'm revealing a piece of who I am and this is not the same as hiding as someone else, or trying to misdirect someone as all successful magicians do. If I wore a military uniform out and about then yes I would be creating an illusion, and whoever sees me would be correct to think it is an illusion, as I have never been in the military and I never wanted to and have no desire whatsoever to be in the military. (I should note right now that I am very thankful that there are brave men and women who do join and serve their country this way.)

[ReineD]

The link below leads to an interesting article about personal identity. The philosophical question is, if a ship's rotted planks are fitted and replaced one by one with new ones, at what point does it stop being the original ship? Yet why do we still call it the ship of Theseus?

The author's take on it is that identity resides in other people's eyes. The thing itself is a collection of atoms that are not tagged "the ship of Theseus", so it's all an illusion. I think this is why the magician that I mentioned earlier gave it up. No matter what he did, he was still defined by others (and perhaps also by himself) as a man.

http://www.utne.com/mind-and-body/sh...#axzz3KbRwiSj0

[Janine cd]

Being what you feel you are is better than accepting the persona that you were born with. If I only accepted my male persona, I would be forced to live a life of bitter loneliness

[Kacey Black.]

Well then...

Ditto to numerous here. Illusion is always a part of it but in my mind... it is no illusion at this moment in time. I am exactly as I picture myself and present to the world. I am me and I'm 50/50. My male side and the female side are really the same person and I know it. (albeit, one can be a total bitch if she wants to...) One carries out certain duties while the other carries out others in life.

It's what makes me, me.

Sure, I picture others in my head and of course I could say something but why. I'd be judging them and if that's all there is to it, it's right back to the drawing board...isn't it?

In guy mode, I'm a total guy and could kick one's behind at any time if I wanted... and that's a good part of the time. In girly mode, sure I turn softer and change things up and that's just fun to step onto the other side for a bit.

Who cares anyway?

[Pat]

I've read the same 'illusion' philosophy on numerous occasions and only you know what's true for you but I don't think I buy it as true for me nor would I encourage others to put too much stock in it.

MtF crossdressers fit one definition of "male" based on genitalia, but I think that's not a complete definition. PERSONALLY, I think MtF crossdressers (from here on I'll drop the MtF since this is the MtF forum,) are a kind of male, a kind that we haven't created a place for in our society. In our current society we conflate the genitalia with the male social role and think one implies the other. I believe crossdressers have an in-built mixture of male and female social roles. They're part of us but we don't have an "approved" way of expressing the female part of us. And when it gets to be too much, we adopt the female presentation to release the pressure and allow us to express that part in a way our social upbringing views as "female normal" since there's no such thing as "mixed normal."

In a healthy society there would be a place for mixed gender types. There would be men who normally expose their female attributes in their daily lives. There would be role models for mixed gender people to act "correctly" and mixed gender males would be valued for what they bring to a civilization. And, yeah, they'd probably wear makeup and be soft-spoken, non-competitive, gentle people in fabulous clothes. This being an imaginary society, I imagine the energy mixed gender male normally spend hiding their true nature could be expended on making the world a better place.

So, yeah, right now we see a lot of energy getting put into the generally unsuccessful illusion of being actual, physical women -- your comment is spot-on in that regard. But the assertion that we're posing is, I believe, wrong. I believe what you're seeing is an aberration brought about by not having a societal role that suits us. It's a weak echo of what we should be.

[lynda]

all i can say is i am a male , if i present as a women i may feel female but i am still a male . thats why its called crossdressing. if you really think you are female then you are female , but then you are not a crossdresser , what i do is an illusion because i know im a male 100 precent of the timt not 50 50 no 100 percent of the time .i may play at being female . but im not , you say you heard about this illusion stuff before but you dont buy it. you mean you are really female,part of the time you are a gg.if you are then this dose not apply to you, because you are not a crossdresser, i am a male to female crossdresser .but i am allways male thanks lynda

[mariehart]

In a physical sense you are male, so am I. But if it was a simple as that there wouldn't be a problem. I completely agree with Jennie-cd's comments. The actual difference between men and women in terms of behaviour and personality is quite small. We're just humans. A great of what we consider to be male or female behaviour is purely a social and cultural construct. Even in these more enlightened times there is a tendency to segregate the sexes in terms of their physical gender. So men must behave in a certain, women in another. Women of late are allowed greater latitude to blur the lines somewhat in terms of their role in society their behaviour and the way the dress. No such latitude is allowed for men unless you identify as gay. The illusion if there is one is that we think it's possible to be 100% male or 100% female.

As it happens I sit here dressed in women's clothes, that is clothes intended for women only. But they fit me perfectly and if I may say so they flatter me a little. So who says only women can wear these clothes? In another universe a typical male might dress like this while women wear dull uninteresting clothes. But in this universe I am breaking a taboo: Men shall not dress in clothes intended for women!

We as humans invent our own world, our own rules, our own illusions. Then we call it the 'natural order of things'. But the natural order of things change all the time proving they were never natural in the first place. My own life is an example. I stay at home and take care of the children. I run the household and am dependant on my wife for money to do so. Not so long ago this was not the natural order of things, in fact in many places it's still totally unacceptable. My maleness would be questioned. Of course in my case that's fair enough. But I know several men in a similar situation who are more typical male.

The point is that all of us have character traits which are more often attributed to the opposite sex. Men in particular have to hide them more than women, at least in western society. A simple example being crying. Most men suppress it some more successfully than others. No woman needs to.

So no one is 100% male or female other than in simple physicality. Even then not all people fit that mould. Feminine men, masculine women etc. I personally have several characteristics which are more typically female. But you have to remember it's simply our definition of what male and female is. An alien from space would probably not notice such things.

I personally am not 100% male. I cannot identify with the male identity. My body says male but that's only to other people. Inside I am just me, a human being who favours a female identity even though I know there are aspects of my mind that could be more typically male.

You can say that's an illusion but really it's not. The illusion most of us live is that as a man or a woman. I must behave in certain way, like certain things. Do certain jobs. Express emotions in a particular way and so on and so forth. That's the illusion and that's largely why some men seek to release suppressed emotions by copying women and becoming one for a time.

[Adriana Moretti]

Interesting point. Have you noticed that in most cases, the other identities people choose to dress up as are usually unattainable, hence the illusion the OP mentioned? Crossdressing isn't much different from wearing an animal suit or a Star Trek outfit as the chances of most men actually becoming a woman are about as achievable as becoming a squirrel or a space traveler. Sure, SRS has given the option some legs, but wow, it's really not something you would do for a bit fun! (I'm talking only about male identified CDers as the OP mentioned)

I think there's something in this though, Adriana, and when you figure out why some men want to emulate a squirrel, you'll probably figure out why others like to emulate women. There's almost something other-worldly about desiring to experience life through the eyes of another, even if it is just an illusion. Perhaps you're just more progressive than the rest of us? Or perhaps some men were squirrels in a past life

Silly rabbit, tricks are made for kids, don't you know that. You without me is like corn flakes without the milk! This is my world. You're just a squirrel trying to get a nut!........


.

[lynda]

hi everyone ,let me try to explain .what trying to say here,now im just talking to the peeple who crossdress, this is not to the peeple whothing they are really female because i agree with you ,if you do you are.god bless you i love you. i am not saying people dont have a mixture of both traits,because i do.but if your a male and heres the big but,because in the forum ,i read a lot of post about passing , well that means your tryiy to pass as a women, something you are really not . then you are creating that illusion. and with breast forms,corsets ,wigs and whatever .thats smoke and mirrors,and just trying you may look female but you are still male .like i said before im not talking about some on here that beleave there core is female, they are not male to female crossdressesers they are female.im just saying to be a crossdresser you to be one and cross to other. if you beleave you are female you are not crossing .you in correct attire thanks lynda

[Beverley Sims]

I agree it is an illusion, all artists present illusions.

[Anna H]

the worst part (for me) about the whole land of TG is having to
consciously create an illusion that i'm the male that people are
going to expect to see...simply based on physical characteristics
that i can do nothing about.

i don't actually care what they think, but it's safer and easier
to give them what they expect. if i don't put myself into a position
to be scrutinized, questioned, evaluated, then i focus on the task
at hand and don't get scared or self-conscious the times that i
need to go out.

i don't move or sit or carry myself like most men, so i have to
try to fit in around them...ever aware that i'm "a bit different".
(some) men in the area i live will give some very cold and
threatening stares when they think someone isn't 'manly' enough.
it's almost like they feel a little threatened themselves.

i don't think i'm a girl, but i'm not pleased about being a guy either.
i'm kinda caught in a strange middle place where little of it makes
any sense....so it comes down to whether or not it feels right for
me. most times it's all trying to be basically invisible and get on
with life with as little complication as is reasonably possible.

i'd wear my dresses everywhere if it were up to me. i don't have
any guys clothes left as of about 8 months now....lol

[Tina_gm]

We as humans invent our own world, our own rules, our own illusions. Then we call it the 'natural order of things'. But the natural order of things change all the time proving they were never natural in the first place

So true. Colonial fancy dress occasions would be considered effeminate by today's standards.

The point is that all of us have character traits which are more often attributed to the opposite sex. Men in particular have to hide them more than women, at least in western society. A simple example being crying. Most men suppress it some more successfully than others. No woman needs to.

Also true, especially among western society, especially the U.S. Look at even the most feminine women or masculine men hard enough and find something somewhere that will be more attributable to the opposite sex. Maybe very little, but it will be there. I agree about no one being a true 100%.

You can say that's an illusion but really it's not. The illusion most of us live is that as a man or a woman. I must behave in certain way, like certain things. Do certain jobs. Express emotions in a particular way and so on and so forth. That's the illusion and that's largely why some men seek to release suppressed emotions by copying women and becoming one for a time.

My femininity is not an illusion. If I was to be so passable that I could go out and people truly believed I was a woman, perhaps that is an illlusion, but that I am feminine, that I relate to women is not an illusion. I dress because it feels good to do so because of my femininity. I do not dress for any other reason. Am I copying a woman, perhaps, or perhaps just outwardly expressing a part of me that is feminine and women of today also express, because they are feminine and today how they dress is considered feminine.

[Minerva Morgan]

It is, perhaps, important to recognize that illusions can be real. Consider the Mona Lisa. We refer to the image as 'her' as if referring to a real person and the painting is capable of evoking a variety of emotions. Its value is said to be immeasurable and its cultural significance immense. Yet it is, fundamentally, a few daubs of oil paint on a piece of wood. It is not eternal; it has not existed since the beginning of time and, like all things, will vanish into dust as if it never had been.

Gender, also, is an illusion but that does not make it any less real when a person presents as one of the three genders. It only means that it is only real when presented. The two sexes are more factual and to maintain an awareness of the differences I use ‘woman’ or ‘man’ and 'female' and 'male' to indicate different concepts.'Woman' or 'girl' I see as being indicative of femininity and, therefore, gender. Being a woman or feminine is feasible regardless of sex. I am not alone in this mode of perception.

I do not think I always agree with Prof. Butler. I am unsure whether I fully understand her as some of her work is a bit tricky to comprehend and seems to contradict itself at times. In one of her early writings, "Sex and Gender in Simone de Beauvoir's Second Sex", Judith Butler 'Yale French Studies', No. 72, "Simone de Beauvoir: Witness to a Century (1986)", pp. 35-49, Yale University Press, 1986, as noted at.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2930225
she begins with:

"One is not born, but rather becomes a woman”,—Simone de Beauvoir’s formulation distinguishes sex from gender and suggests that gender is an aspect of identity gradually acquired. The distinction between sex and gender has been crucial to the long-standing feminist effort to debunk the claim that anatomy is destiny; sex is understood to be the invariant, anatomically distinct, and factic aspects of the female body, whereas gender is the cultural meaning and form that body acquires, the variable modes of that body’s acculturation."

"Moreover, if the distinction is consistently applied, it becomes unclear whether being a given sex has any necessary consequence for becoming a given gender. The presumption of a causal or mimetic relation between sex and gender is undermined."

I agree that in such matters as this one must make a clear distinction between 'factic' and 'invariant' sex and the 'cultural meaning' of gender. This does not mean that, in our culture, gender is not related to sex in some ways by convention, nor does it mean that, because gender is also an act of creativity, that it is unreal. It simply means that, in spite of generally held beliefs defining a causal correlation, sex and gender are not the same. The words 'revolution' and 'rotate' have a similar context of moving in a relatively circular motion but the meaning and context of the terms make them applicable in radically different situations.

Another reference to the idea raised by de Beauvoir is, "Becoming A Woman: Simone de Beauvoir on Female Embodiment", Felicity Joseph, 2008, at:
https://philosophynow.org/issues/69/...ale_Embodiment

"Generally for existentialists, one is not born anything: everything we are is the result of our choices, as we build ourselves out of our own resources and those which society gives us. We don’t only create our own values, we create ourselves. Simone de Beauvoir, although an avowed life-long existentialist, posits limits to this central existentialist idea of self-creation and self-definition, qualifying the absolute freedom Jean-Paul Sartre posited in Being and Nothingness."

"Sartre observed that whatever we perceive, including other people, is rendered as an ‘object’ to our gaze and is defined by us. De Beauvoir takes up this idea and applies it to men’s perception of women. The very concept of ‘woman’, de Beauvoir argues, is a male concept: woman is always ‘other’ because the male is the ‘seer’: he is the subject and she the object – the meaning of what it is to be a woman is given by men."

See also:
http://www.ruzovyamodrysvet.sk/chill...412_92f5e9.pdf

Gender is ephemeral. It is illusory as a concept because it is created by conventions and definitions rather than existing apart from awareness and perception, as do mountains or forests. The philosophical gag of the tree falling in the forest states that the tree exists and the forest exists without being observed but that the sound of the tree falling does not exist unless it is observed. Since sound, to me, is a mechanical phenomenon involving the compression of air in regular, wave-like intervals, and since those waves are 'real', I am not sure about the conclusion, but gender, unlike sex, does need a comprehensive consensus and not only needs to be observed by the person expressing a gender (including the invariant androgynous form of 'nongender'), it also requires an observer. Just as the sound, when observed, is real, so is gender, when observed, become real.

The difficulty in defining gender is that, like sex, it cannot be simplistically attributed to any single thing, cause, behaviour, mode of appearance, etc., but it is a collection or Gender Gestalt of a variety of factors, behaviours, phenomenon, etc. Some may be voluntary but I suspect that the motivations are not always as voluntary as some think.

For a male to wish to be female is as illusory as wishing to be Emperor of the Universe. Someday it may be possible to be Emperor of the Universe but it is, at this time, impossible that any living human will achieve that status. Even if, somewhere, there is such an entity it is impossible that such a person will accept being displaced by any of us. As best as can be determined, no human has ever been Emperor of the Universe (although a few seem to have thought that they were). Someday, it may be possible to change from one sex to the other, perhaps even tomorrow. Today that is impossible and therefore it is (today) an unreal expectation. It is (today) possible for a male to be a woman, and this has been shown on countless occasions. Some males are Gender Invariant feminine, and need to have their anatomies adjusted to their gender, becoming women anatomically as well as psychologically. Doing this effectively has been actually feasible only fairly recently. Some males are Gender Variant and need only adopt the mannerisms, deportment, accoutrements, behavioural patterns, etc., normally associated with a feminine Gender Gestalt on either a temporary or permanent basis. They are still women. Gender, in all of such cases, is a matter of creativity and perception, just as is the Mona Lisa, or of invention and convention, as is the belief that the Sun rises in the East, and all are, therefore, illusion but still very real. Being a woman is a very real thing.

The trick, in this case, is that the differences between sex and gender be “consistently applied”. By doing so, the difference between being a female (sex) and being feminine (gender, and, therefore, a woman) becomes more meaningful. Especially, for a male, being a woman is no longer seen as inconsistent, unreal, improbable or incorrect. It just becomes a matter of learning, application of what has been learned and a commitment to some degree of excellence rather than conforming or succumbing to the beliefs and ideologies promulgated by others.

Minerva.

[Katey888]

Soooo.... Minerva's proven that illusions can be real (thank you Minerva - certainly ain't arguing with that... ) - now, to lynda's assertion that this is all an illusion and we are all male...

Lynda - it may be true for you and you can speak authoritatively only for yourself, and while I have my feminine moments (they are almost exclusively while en femme) I think I have read enough here to understand that a great number of folk here are not just creating an illusion, but expressing an aspect of themselves that they can only do comfortably when presenting as a female. It is not, to them, just an illusion, but an integral part of their being - for me too, to some extent. Others do not have to fully present - we have some notable members who dress but do not adjust any gender above the neck, so to speak - that is their comfort zone.

You may just feel that you are creating an illusion, and that is perfectly valid - but others feel differently and their view of their own feelings and motivations are also perfectly valid for themselves. If you were to accept that there are different 'stages' of CDing (or being TG) that cover a variety of physical expressions and are not just related to the binary gender (only male OR female) perspective, then this would probably be easier for you to grasp...

Katey x

[cindi cinnamon]

For me..... The illusion is my male body.... Reality, is how I feel "inside".

[ReineD]

Adriana the scenario painted in that video is dire indeed. The message basically is, "without me you are nothing, so you had better do as I say else you'll find yourself flat out on the street".

What a horrible predicament for the girl, and how terrible it is to internalize that message. I hope she gathers up her inner resources and goes back to school so she can take care of herself and never have to rely on any man for her upkeep. And while she's at it, I hope she stops putting such a premium on jewelry and clothes.

[lynda]

to all of you i did not mean or try to hurt anyone of you girls,i was just saying somthing that was on my mind,i respect all of your idaes,and really know how some of us try to grasp some real meaning out of our postion,i know first hand how some of us hurt,im not an outsider ,i know what it feels like to be diffrent.when i was in school we had to take showers after gym ,i dreded that i always felt like i did not measure up .i knew i was diffrent . and kate i sense some saddnest in your post ,if i made you feel that way im sorry. because your one of the peeple i like to read, i really love you peeple ,ive said before you make me feel like i belong someplace. love hugs lynda

[devida]

I categorically reject the idea that people who do not identify as binary have a core identity that is either male or female. Gender, and to an amazing extent, sex, is a contniuum, a spectrum with male and female at the extremes. I am neither male nor female, though I am probably more feminine than masculine. I am not pretending to be anything other than what I feel myself to be and, actually I doubt that most bigendered crossdressers are either. They are, like me, wherever they are that they are presenting on the gender spectrum. Hard as this might be for the binary obsessed to understand when a cross dresser is presenting as a woman she is expecting to be understood and interacted with as a woman and thus for all real purposes is a woman. This is okay. The idea that there is some kind of ineffable core gender identity is, in my opinion, hogwash. If you choose to believe that you are a man pretending to be a woman that is your prerogative. If you choose to think you do this badly this is also your prerogative. I am all in favor of the primacy of personal belief for the individual who holds that belief. But please, don't attempt to impose that belief on others. The exceptions to your rule are countless.

[ReineD]

Devida, there are indeed people who don't fit the binary. But, there are a great deal more who do, including many if not most crossdressers. Maybe the differences boil down to personal definitions. Maybe some people think of themselves as males who enjoy or even need to present as women sometimes, while others take that need and define it as a part of their core selves which then alters their definition of what being male should be.

Lynda … it's OK. This is just a discussion, I don't think that anyone is upset.