My liberal wife thinks all TVs are gay

[ReineD]

Just to add a couple things; First, my wife and her younger sister both dress like men. Even when we go to fancy restaurants, they wear pants, sweaters and chunky men's work boots.

You mean like this?

Timberlands.jpg

(not the one in the middle, lol)

This image is from the website, "GirlFashionStyleNet". Note the word "girl" in the title, and not "boy".

These women are not dressing like men, they dress like casual women. Where did you get the idea that only men can wear pants and work boots?

I think this is partly what has relit my fire to crossdress, the fact my wife doesn't dress feminine at all, and I'm someone who feels I "need" femininity e.g. feminine clothing in my life.

Back to your main point, many before you here have posted that they thought they'd stop CDing once married, or later on they thought they CDed because their wives weren't "feminine" enough. If you stick around long enough, you'll see that the desire to CD is independent of that. CDers crossdress when they're single, married, when they're young, old, when their kids are growing up, after they're gone, when they're in relationships with feminine men, masculine men, feminine women and masculine women. The desire to do this comes from within you because you've derived positive reinforcement from it in the past, and it really has nothing to do with your other circumstances. The proof: there are a great many men who are not crossdressers, but who are also married to women who do not prioritize girly fashions.

[flatlander_48]

I don't see a political connection as liberals, conservatives and moderates can all be welcoming or homophobic. It just happens.

However, one thing about sexuality in general is that there are very few, if any, absolutes. There are gay men who lead perfectly regular lives married to women, have children, etc. Same for women, also. They are not in great numbers, but they do exist. Saying that all crossdressers are gay reflects a lack of information. It's like going from 1 to 2 to 4 to 5... Because of that lack of information, people jump to erroneous conclusions.

By the way, I try to avoid the term Normal. As we all here exist outside of the usual expected behaviors, the word Normal does not apply to us. If we use the term, it's like saying that there is something wrong with us because our behaviors are different.

[devida]

There really is an awful muddle over sex, sexuality and gender. I know one non binary defined male at birth who says that they are lesbian. I really do think that if we just allowed everyone to own the words that define them we wouldn't have these arguments. If you say that you identify as, as a recent example I know did, as a transgender horse, do I really have to argue with you? And why should I? I'm not a gender, sex or sexuality policeman. And please, anybody who is, hand in your badge!

[sometimes_miss]

While I certainly don't agree, I believe it's a natural assumption for people to make; if we go through a lot of effort to look like attractive females, it makes sense to the outside world that we're trying to sexually attract males. Which then makes it appear that we are gay, or TS. I mean it's easy to read this forum and see all the things done to appear more feminine; the discussions about how to sit, move, walk, talk, use make up, do our hair, etc. make it clear that it's not just about the clothes.
While it's not correct, it's pretty easy to understand why people see it that way.

[Que-cera-cera girl]

I agree with vickie_cdtv. If your wife would join this site she would see that you all arent gay. I know this from experience cuz Im a wife of a cd and I just didnt know. So my fiance (who is a cd n as straight as can be) found this site. We both use the site for help and to help others understand. If your wife will join tell her to look me up (Que-cera-cera girl) id be happy to try to help her.
P. S. That goes for anyone who needs to talk, vent, advice, or just chit chat, feel free to look me up.

[Jeninus]

While I certainly don't agree, I believe it's a natural assumption for people to make; if we go through a lot of effort to look like attractive females, it makes sense to the outside world that we're trying to sexually attract males. Which then makes it appear that we are gay, or TS. I mean it's easy to read this forum and see all the things done to appear more feminine; the discussions about how to sit, move, walk, talk, use make up, do our hair, etc. make it clear that it's not just about the clothes.
While it's not correct, it's pretty easy to understand why people see it that way.

This is an interesting point. Yes, especially if it is our intention to leave the comforting confines of our homes and venture out into the world - and the malls - en femme, we may very well go to a great deal of effort to dress, do our makeup, wear a really fine human hair wig, walk and otherwise comport ourselves as women. But are we doing this in order to attract men? I think the answer is definitely not for the great majority of us. It's to try to blend into the background as a woman who - as I believe is true of most GGs - has absolutely no intention of trying to hook a man 99.9% of the time, but is merely minding her own business while navigating through the world. The more accurately we can present as a woman, the less likelihood we will be outed and subjected to embarrassment, or worse.

[AshleyScott]

Mes amis, bonjour...

Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread - it demonstrates one of the fine attributes that bring me back to this forum, i.e. reasoned discussion.

A long story, that I'll try to keep brief. Sitting outside a café in my local market during the summer, chatting with locals and sipping coffee, I was approached nervously by a young lady in her early 40's. She asked if she could sit with me and proceeded to ask me about the "community" here in France, explaining that she and her girl friend didn't know there was a gay community in this part of the country.

Now the inference didn't phase me, she (Amanda) was genuinely friendly and we chatted for quite some time - eventually exchanging mobile numbers, with the promise to keep in touch.

Two days later she phoned me and asked if I would like to dine with her and extended visiting family at her mother's holiday home, which is close by, adding that I should dress as I please. I accepted and did (dress to please me)

The family (3 generations) made me feel very welcome and we spent a long and comfortable evening together - mostly they inquired about every-day living in France, but with the occasional reference to my taste in clothes (nothing too nosey and quite a lot of laughter).

We met up on a couple of subsequent occasions before their return to the UK... and have kept in touch since.

In November I had reason to go to London and Amanda & Gemma (now fiancée) invited me to stay for a couple of nights - specifically so that we could "play". Playing meant Amanda taking me shopping followed by an evening trip into Soho to a "gay" club (Freedom - for those of you who might like to know). We had a good evening and my look and taste in clothes was complimented on several occasions - by both males and females and never once in a "sexual" way.

All in all, a very pleasant experience (for those of you who have yet to venture "out)

I don't try to pass... no wig, no make up... just a man who likes a particular "feminine" style of clothing.

I'm married to my First Wife for 42 years and have 9 grand-children. I've had sex with a few men in my life, but for the most part, prefer sex with a woman

I dress the way I do because I like the look. I think it looks good on me and it makes me feel good (why else would people dress in the way that they do?).

But I ask "Have YOU been asked THE question yet?"?.

Has anyone (apart from on this forum) ever asked YOU why YOU like to "cross dress"? Apologies if I've highjacked the thread

[Greenie]

From the wife girlfriend perspective.

Don't be too harsh on her. The first thing that all wives ask when their CDer husband comes out is what "Are you gay?". It comes from a place a fear and misunderstanding of what a cross-dresser is. Our world and most people in it have been raised to believe in the gender binary. There are men, and women restrooms. Men and women hair products. Men and women's ETC ETC ETC. Even the idea of who can be attracted to another human being has been "Dumbed down" to only 3 possible options. (Whilst we know isn't true) Man man, man woman, woman woman. Since the CDer wants to portray as a woman our brains can jumble this up to think that our SO is either gay and likes men, or wants to become a woman.

Even the most liberal of people can have a hard time wrapping their mind around the idea. The fear and misunderstanding sets in. If you transition to a woman, or want to be seen as a woman, are you attracted to men? (Many a hetero cross-dresser here has said yes). But when the CDer answers no.... This confuses the whole foundation of what the wife has been normalized to believe. Through experience and mainstream education. Suddenly their heterosexual cisgendered partner, wants to change the cisgendered part, I think its a normal question to assume that they want to change the Heterosexual part too.

While incorrect, where in mainstream media or education are people taught about other genders and sexuality. I am only 24, and even in my recent college experience, our cultural anthropology classes do not discuss the stray from what is "gender norm"

I myself and very open minded, but had a very hard time with this concept when my SO came out to me. And like most women the first question I asked was "Are you gay?" How could my cisgendered Heterosexual boyfriend, like to watch trans porn and dress like a woman? HE MUST not follow the conventional idea of what is means to "be a man"

I see a lot of judgement of your wife on this thread. Probably the way you posted the OP. We have no idea of her real tone or intention because she is not here. But often I joke with Luca to break the tension but also sometimes out of fear. Fear of what is not inevitable, but still possible and scary. Now, you do need to sit down with her and have a conversation about how she speaks about people like you and how it hurts your feelings. But this seems like more of a communication problem that can be overcome.

[CarlaWestin]

How narrow-minded, in my view! I only have sexual feelings for women and have often thought of myself as a repressed lesbian rather than a homosexual man.

Does your repressed lesbian think of things you would like done to you physically with your man equipment or more like real women where it's more cerebral and emotional than it is physical.

My guess is that her comments are more of an expression of her frustration with you than her knowledge or beliefs about CDing. Maybe you can find another way to engage her in the discussion....and put out the cigarette.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!! No more calls folks. We have a winner!
Tell you what, Silk. Why don't you quit smoking and take the healthy high road. I know my wife sees that I'm healthy and successful in everything I do. And, I celebrate in my crossdressing, which just grates on her view that it's a deleterious activity.

[Rosaliy Lynne]

alas many wives have similar views. I am lucky in that I have a very dear friend whose wife is very supportive.
3 times divorced though so I have no interesting in more than friendship now.

[Brenn]

Political viewpoints have nothing to do with whether or not someone will accept a CD, or anyone else on the TG spectrum, including a TS. I have come out to 100 people, give or take. Most people have accepted me, and four won't support me. The four who won't support me, and all consequently tried to talk me out of my transition, are liberals. On the other hand, every single conservative I have come out to has been totally accepting of me. In fact, one of my biggest supporters is a staunch conservative Republican who is also an LGBT activist. I had a conservative Republican friend show up to my AA fellowship to support me on the night I came out at AA. He is not a member of AA and I know him through another friend in AA.

I think people, regardless of political views, only care about their own self interests. I think political views are yet another multi-dimensional spectrum. Most of don't fit into the binary conservative or liberal. Many of us may be liberal in some areas, and conservative in others. Regardless of where we stand on the political spectrum, most people just care about their own self interest.

Well said. "Liberal" does not equal "tolerant" anymore than "conservative" equals "intolerant."

[Mink]

hey quit telling them to stop smoking siggies!

it's a free country you can do what you want!

nobody has that right!

[BillieAnneJean]

HA! My wife thought I was gay.

Disclaimer:
This is not a statement against any sexual orientation. Those that are gay are just like anyone else and deserve the am respect and compassion as all humans. I enjoy their company and friendship. Diversity is a blessing for the population.

[missmars]

If she knew transvestism and sexual orientation are unrelated, She would say "Oh God, I wonder if our kids will end up transvestite too."

[pamela7]

public perception fed by the media leads those not in the know to assume a man dressed as a woman is interested in men. It's not true, but ... if there are 5% homosexuals among men, then might there be 5% homosexuals among CD'ers, and bisexuals, so we are a demographic like any other, with infinite variations, with a spectrum of TS/TG to also consider.

i believe what most people say has not been thought through, it just comes out, its not meant harmfully (mostly), and once proper time or consideration is given, one must conclude we're all difference and the same. What matters the clothing? What happens in the bedroom clearly shows the orientation.

[JustineFallow]

I once had a girlfriend whose favourite member of our mutually favourite band was the most heavily made-up. She loved Eddie Izzard. She liked men in eyeliner. What was her reaction when I screwed up the courage to tell her about my CDing? Take a guess: NIMBY.

[Jason+]

I'll go with the wisdom of my wife who has told me the worst I could be is bi. We have also discussed that deviations off a given norm are a lot easier to rationally accept across the fence than they are emotionally and/or visually on your own side. I was a Nuclear Submariner for literally 10 years of my Naval career. The opportunity was there but maybe I just never met "the right guy." "He" might still be out there but it's a lot like the lottery, you have to play to win.

[Katey888]

studies show that most cross dressers are straight married men.

What studies...? I'm all for learning of anything mildly scientific or rigorous that has been conducted on this but it would be great if we could have some sources...

For the benefit of newcomers here we closed a long-running thread in November last year that polled members for their orientation (here: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...-a-guy-are-you) - and while respondents were self-selected (not everyone had to respond) and self-identified, it did represent the best poll that I've seen here. The analysis might be surprising, but is far from definitive. I've updated the data since the thread was closed...

HowStraight421.jpg

This puts hetero and bi respondents at almost equal proportions on this forum. It may be representative of the general population or not. In the absence of better data, I'm guessing this is probably not far from reality.

Some folks seem to be upset by this mix - but I don't understand why? Regardless of anyone else's sexual orientation in any group that I am a member, my own orientation remains mine and is not influenced by others.

Katey x

[PaulaQ]

One of the things the poll shows, and I think this is true, is that very few cross dressers self-identify as gay men. I know a few, here and in real life, but the vast majority I know are either straight or bisexual. And even for the self-identified bisexuals, most of them I know are in relationships with women. (Although to be sure I know some CDs who aren't gay, but are in same sex relationships.)

Anyway, the bottom line is very few CDs are gay.

Oh, one more point about liberals. You'd think they'd be more open minded about these things - but really a lot of them get just as hung up on gender issues as conservative people. And mostly neither side gets it, really. For spouses or family members, other stuff besides their political views plays a bigger role in their acceptance / rejection of a gender variant family member.

[Pat]

If you're into percentages, etc. there's an interesting book/paper on a small-scale study you can download from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...w_myk_ro_title

It's a summary of results from an anonymous newspaper poll, so it's not definitive, but it is interesting.

[Hannah Adams]

A liberal who needs to categorize and label ? Interesting.

[ReineD]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...w_myk_ro_title

I wouldn't put much credence into the author Dr. Vernon Coleman. He is a rather prolific writer in several, unrelated yet culturally "popular" fields. He thinks that vaccines are not safe, that people can use their minds to heal their bodies, there are several books about how doctors and nurses kill us and how to avoid this, etc. He seems to mostly mistrust the medical profession and this is the only book that touches on cross-gender expression, out of several hundred books and articles he has written:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=series_r...3Ddigital-text
http://www.vernoncoleman.com/main.htm

In the Amazon preview, it says that he surveyed just over 1,000 British males, but it is unclear how he did this (from the preview). Did he seek participants in some of the tabloids that he contributes to which would then provide him with a self-assessed cohort? This would not be a random study and it would be impossible to estimate any percentages of men who crossdress to the general population.

There are close to 30,000 people who've joined this forum since its inception according to the numbers on the index page, possibly more if the numbers were culled at one point. This does not mean that 10% or 50% of the population crossdresses.

[Katey888]

I wouldn't put much credence into the author Dr. Vernon Coleman....

In the Amazon preview, it says that he surveyed just over 1,000 British males, but it is unclear how he did this (from the preview).

Reine - I agree with you from what I've read about Dr Coleman... Seems like he qualified as a GP in 1970 (from which his medical credibility stems) but since 1973 he has been primarily a columnist and author on anything and everything... I've been trying to find more info about the survey but can't recover the details (damn Google!) but I do recall reading that it was a voluntary survey through one of the tabloids he worked for.. so yes, self-selecting and thus totally without any good statistical foundation.

I think I may have posted this somewhere before but I have it as a table now so it's clearer - this is the most complete compilation of surveys that I've found to date (from G.G. Bolich, Today's Transgender Realities, 2008) although personally I think Coleman's should be excluded - one would normally drop the highest and lowest outliers in surveys anyway.

Study (arranged by year)	Results
J.L. McCary (1978)	Less than 1%
W.B. Arndt (1991)	Less than 0.5%
S. Janus & C.L. Janus (1993)	3% of women; 6% of men
Vernon Coleman (1996)	10% of men
Lynn Conway (2001-2002)	2%-5% of adult males
N. Langstrom & K.J. Zucker (2005)	0.4% of women; 2.8% of men

I'd suggest that our membership and participation here represents a distinct subset of the CD world... Other sites out on the interwebs that heavily outnumber our splendid little forum are much more into the fetish, sex and dating side of CDing. My extrapolation from this is that we here represent a higher proportion of TG/trans* than fetish CDers and that other sites would likely see the reverse. To me, this means that the 'fetish' CD population is a bigger part of the whole than the CD/TG/TS element and because these surveys encompass ALL CDers, we are thus a smaller part of the whole. Rationally, we'd be more vocal as well because we do go out and have a need to express this aspect that fetish CDers don't. Possibly why we're hard to spot in the wild...

I realise why we might want to believe we are more numerous, but I still don't see the evidence for it.

If anyone has any different referenceable material I'd love to hear from them...

Katey x

[marilyn m]

both my previous wifes had gay fantasys,
saying they would go with the likes of madonna or beyonce,
surely the bi curious is in all of us, to a degree,esp if we were totally convincing as women,?

[Suzie Petersen]

Can't speak for anyone else, but I can say that I have absolutely no, and have never had any, interest in males. Nor do I have any so called bi curiosity etc.
So, nothing "surely" about that at all.

- Suzie