Why is it assumed that a gay bar is cross dresser freindly?

[Jenniferathome]

I often read here that a typical night out means going to a gay bars. The assumption is that somehow, gay people will "understand" a cross dresser. Seems like a reasonable assumption on the surface, but then something in this string http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...-should-reply) stuck with me and caused me to question this assumption.

Within the thread above are a few other thread links and more than one gay cross dresser reported that their partner did not like the cross dressing. That some are in DADT situations. Now, THAT actually makes sense but surprised me nonetheless when I first read it. Why should there be any difference in a male or female partner with regards to acceptance of cross dressing?

So, my contention is that gay males are no more or less accepting of a cross dresser than the straights in non-gay bars. Perhaps the only real thing shared is both are minorities in the general public. Does this hypothesis make sense? Have cross dressers across the globe been finding refuge where there is really none?

[Paula_Femme]

I often read here that a typical night out means going to a gay bars. The assumption is that somehow, gay people will "understand" a cross dresser. Seems like a reasonable assumption on the surface... Perhaps the only real thing shared is both are minorities in the general public.

My hope would be that gays, having been on the wrong end of a whole lot of hate and discrimination pretty much for as long as history has been recorded, would look on CD-ers, and others on the TG spectrum, and show a bit of sympathy and understanding. Sadly, Human Nature being what it is, that is not always the case.

[Nadine Spirit]

I agree with your thoughts.

I remember reading about some T's who attended an LGBT event, I think it was in Los Angeles, and they were treated quite poorly by many of the other's in attendance.

[JeanneF]

There's a general assumption that since we're all under the LGBT umbrella that a gay bar is still a much safer place to go out than a straight bar. You're way less likely to get your ass kicked by some douchebag bros at a gay bar.

From personal experience, there are plenty of gay guys who are every bit as transphobic, but they don't tend to lash out violently. I would still recommend to anyone going out dressed for the first time that a gay bar is a good, safe place to spread your wings. Once you're used to that, going to straight bars or just out in public in general becomes less frightening.

[Eryn]

In the few times I've gone to LGBT venues I've never experienced anything unpleasant. I expect to get clocked, though, because people there are looking for the unusual.

One can have a bad experience in any venue, but that is no reason to paint all such venues with a brush of intolerance.

[LelaK]

This says they're tolerant but sometimes misinformed.

http://cdsecretgarden.femmegetaway.com/cdinfospeak.html
The more timid crossdressers often limit themselves to a midnight drive around the city. Their first baby steps out of the closet might be a trip to the ATM machine or a MacDonald's drive-through. The gay community is generally quite tolerant of crossdressers (although often as misinformed as the general public), so many CDs will seek safe haven in "drag bars", nightclubs or lounges which feature shows by Drag Queens.

[Kacey Black.]

I may be new but I can speak from some experience here... not tons, but some.

I don't have the answer really Jennifer, but when I went out for my first time, that's where I chose to go. Why? Perception. Here, and maybe like you up there in ID, there isn't a place for cross dressers, period.

I don't believe for one minute that a gay man understands the cross dresser, in any way shape or form. It's not reasonable to think they would.

The reasoning behind it (for me) was simple. The Gay bar, (or even a lesbian bar, drag shows, whatever)... is a place that is accepting of something other than the norm... and that's attractive when you consider certain options. You aren't the norm, nor am I. Go to bubba's biker beer joint dressed like, well... me (or you) and you may find a problem... thus, the choice. Where do you feel safer?

Now, if you're one that's just "out" and go where you please, the thought of going to such a club may never cross your mind. For me, I like the club atmosphere sometimes and having a drink, dancing sometimes, etc. it's fun. Find one that's more mature and you've hit a place you consider comfortable.

In my trips so far, I find only accepting people that don't really do much. They appear to accept me for me and that's that.

So for me, and perhaps others, it's perceived as a safe zone.

[Barbara Dugan]

I think you can find intolerance at any venue you choose but I still think a Gay bar still is a more friendly place to go unless you choose a Leather one

[Adriana Moretti]

From my experience ( and thats here in the north east ) when I have visited gay bars..most just diddnt care, or couldnt be bothered with crossdressers...and both groups kind of stuck to themselves.....kind of like that awkward birthday party you went to when the host was friends with different cliques in junior high...everyone probably is going to have different experiences around the world i guess. But you are going to find good and bad people wherever you go, I have found you will find more acceptance at these places rather than your local hooters on a Monday Night Football Night... but you always run the risk of someone stepping out of line....i have seen that in public with both cd's and gays and vanilla's all acting a fool towards each other....enough booze will make anyone stupid anywhere.....myself included.

[LelaK]

In August 2011 there was a thread on this forum called:

Do Gays Hate Crossdressers?
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...-Crossdressers

The following was ReineD's comment. Maybe she'll have an update for us in this thread.

The conclusion I'm drawing from this thread, and also the "how are my gay CDs doing" thread, is that cis people in general, whether gay or straight, understand very little about gender variance.

Even people who experience gender variance have a hard time understanding those who experience a different type of gender variance. LOL.

There's a wide range of acceptance/tolerance among cis people, from those who embrace this in a SO or loved one like I do, to the liberal and politically correct type of acceptance that also has a "not in my backyard" caveat, to mere tolerance whether or not it is polite, to downright disdain.

It is clear though, that no matter where on the above scale a gay man's views might be, he is attracted sexually to other men and not to men who present as women even if he happens to have friends who CD.

[MelanieAnne]

Tolerance and acceptance are two very different things. Gays are probably less likely to assault you. But they are for the most part not welcoming toward crossdressers, and some don't want us horning in on their agenda. Most gays don't want anything to do with women, or those who try to look like women. And many of them probably know most crossdressers are not gay.

[sara.rafaela]

Hi, I have some gay friends. I am not out to them, but some are not to happy about the T being part of the LGBT group. They say it has nothing to do with them. I think the experience at gay bars can vary. Some, you can say are at best gay themed or gay friendly. These have maybe 60-70% straight people in them. The people are there for the techno music, and guest DJ from New York. Faces in Sacramento is one example. I have found gay bars of this type to be without exception very accepting of us. I have also been to some gay bars where there are 100% men, looking for other men. I do not think this would be a welcoming place at all. I do not think anyone would be hostile, you just would be completely ignored there.

[AllieSF]

If I understand correctly there are two parts to your post. One is that between couples and whether the same sex partner would be more accepting of their crossdressing partner than a straight partner's acceptance their partner's dressing in a heterosexual relationship. The other is whether a crossdresser would be more accepted by the patrons in a gay bar versus a straight bar.

I can only speak from my own experience and extrapolate from that. I know and have talked with a few gay male couples where one is a crossdresser. In one relationship one did not like the CDing of the other. In a couple of others, it was a non-issue and basically accepted that it was part of their personality and occasional activities. We never really discussed the details in the latter cases. So I do not know if CDing caused any issues. I personally believe that it would be easier for someone in a gay relationship to accept the crossdressing in their partner, when compared to a straight couple's situation. My reasoning is based on the strangeness/unfamiliarity of not only crossdressing but also of homosexuality in the larger straight world, plus the changed role presentation from the traditional expected role, e.g. the husband needs to be a male in the relationship. Thus the familiar first questions after the big reveal asking if their partner is gay or wants to try being with someone of the same sex, i.e. lack of good knowledge of all this. While in the gay community they already have their overly femme acting members, sometimes identified as "Flamers" as in flaming gay. It is not uncommon for a big buff male to partner up with someone with more feminine attributes. There are many variations on this that I have seen. Aspects and characteristics of a crossdresser can also show up in non-crossdressing gays. However, that being said, I have also met some that want nothing to do with crossdressing in someone they would date or partner up with. So, as in the straight world, some can live with it and others can not.

In regard to gays and lesbians accepting crossdressers into their bars and casual community there, I have been dressed at gay/lesbian bars in Detroit, Michigan, Oakland, and San Francisco, California and interacted with some of the people in those locations. I have never been treated in any way shape or form with disrespect. Just the opposite, I have been treated like any other human being in the bar, and have developed a type of casual friendship type of acquaintance, where we share sometimes personal issues that we are trying to deal with. These are conversations that they don't have with everyone. I have been with many other CD's, some first time out newbies, and they were always treated the same as I was. That does not mean that 100% of the patrons are happy that we are there, but after over 8 years of frequenting these places, I have yet to see that reaction. I think that gay bars are a somewhat more accepting venue than some straight bars for crossdressers. One reason is similar to what I said above, they have already seen parts of our personalities in some femme acting non-crossdressing gay people. It is not totally new to them to see one or more of us. I have had several gay men on more than one occasion tell me that they do not understand why we dress as the opposite gender. Their questions coming more from curiosity than disapproval. Now my experience comes from already accepting locations (SF Bay Area and Las Vegas) and venues (gay/lesbian bars that have drag shows and accommodate and want TG patrons) and I cannot speak for those gay/lesbian bars that hardly ever see any crossdressers, or may be in a very conservative part of the country. However, from what I have read from other posts and threads on this site the number of negative reactions to CD's in gay/lesbian bars is rare, not just uncommon, like maybe 5 negatives to 95 positives. That in itself is a good reason to try a local gay bar. Also note that even when one small group may be negative, what about the rest of the people in the bar? That is just another example of sometimes shit happens even in places where you do not expect it. Another correlation is that most middle age to older gays were at one time in the closet and can appreciate the need for some of us TG's to look for a safe haven off the beaten and more popular straight venue paths.

[DorothyElizabeth]

I have both male and female friends who are same-sex oriented. My experience has been that the women are more accepting of my cross dressing than the men, but I have to admit, from a statistical standpoint, my sampling size is too small to be of any value.

[Leslie Langford]

Jennifer raises a good point, and there is much empirical evidence to support her thesis. Let's not forget that the "T" in "LGBT" was only added on as an afterthought for inclusion into that community, and has only been part of this acronym for a scant number of years now. Furthermore, not only are most most actual drag queens gay, they usually make a point of avowing that dressing up in female clothing does nothing for them, and that doing drag is just a "job" the way they describe it. Curious then, that many of them are so d*mn good at it.

And to Nadine's point - here in Toronto (home of one of the largest annual Gay Pride parades anywhere, and site of the 2014 international World Pride gathering), the organizers of the parade have given the "T" community the cold shoulder for a number of years now, putting so many obstacles (lack of adequate funding is the usual excuse) in their way that the latter is now going its own way and organizing its own activities independently of the larger organization because it refuses to be marginalized even further - and especially by a supposed ally.

Of course, the supreme irony (and injustice) here was that with respect to the 1969 Stonewall riots - which proved to be pivotal point in the struggle for the rights of gays and lesbians - trans folks were in the vanguard of the protests, and by some accounts their initial push-back on systematic police harassment acted as the trigger for the ensuing events.

[Adriana Moretti]

1969 Stonewall riots - which proved to be pivotal point in the struggle for the rights of gays and lesbians - trans folks were in the vanguard of the protests, and by some accounts their initial push-back on systematic police harassment acted as the trigger for the ensuing events.

Leslie speaks The truth....that is why this place is still a historic landmark here in NY.......if anyone EVER comes to NY .....visit here..... birthplace of GAY rights...... also one of the birthplaces of disco music pre bee-gee's ...every thurs there is a tg group that meets there at 7 pm then they walk a few doors down to Monster......another gay friendly DANCE club

http://www.thestonewallinnnyc.com/St...nNYC/HOME.html

[Jenniferathome]

...Thus the familiar first questions after the big reveal asking if their partner is gay ...

Hi Allie, your first point is correct but it was idea 1 that got me thinking about idea two, so it's kinda related.

the quote I grabbed above is because it never struck me about the conversation between ska sex partners. I can just imagine this response from the spouse being told, "Are you straight?!" Too funny this cross dressing thing.

[ReineD]

I agree. But, we did feel safer at gay bars when we started to go out years ago because we imagined that people in the mainstream would be after us with pitchforks. lol

The truth is, people are polite when spoken to and they do keep their opinions to themselves whether in the mainstream or in a gay bar, so it's all the same.

On a slight tangent, my SO and I just got back from a trip to New Orleans. My SO didn't feel like expressing her femininity on this trip so we were in guy mode the entire time. Part of the reason for leaving the girl stuff at home was being unfamiliar with the bar/drinking culture on Bourbon St and not really knowing where to go. We've found it is generally unwise to dress in heavy drinking areas and we were staying in the French Quarter. But one night we walked by a club that advertised Drag Shows. There was a young, beautifully dressed, coiffed, and made-up DQ at the door (really gorgeous looking) and I explained that my SO is TG but we were unsure of the tolerance for this in the area and asked what the general mindset might be among the patrons. The young DQ at the door told me that he had no idea, since he identified as a gay male and didn't really know anyone in the TG community.

I thanked him, but as we were leaving I once again wondered why gay males who identify as male and who are attracted to men who are attracted to other men, enjoy presenting as sexy women yet they don't "get" TGs/CDs. I'm embarrassed to say that I googled it when we got back to the hotel, but was not enlightened by any of the search results. lol.

[donnalee]

About the only conclusion that can be drawn from all this is that people vary in their prejudices as in most other things and logic has little to do with it, so watch your back (or have someone you trust completely do it for you).

[Vickie_CDTV]

I think they are more "tolerant" (more likely to leave you alone if they know you are trans) of those who are different, trans included. It doesn't mean the gays and lesbians at gay bars are more "understanding" of TV/TSism than cisgender folks.

[Princess Chantal]

True it is a false assumption that a gay or lesbian establishment would be more accepting. However thanks to this false assumption the gay and lesbian establishment have had more exposure to crossdressing and are less likely to have a knee jerk reaction.

[Kate Simmons]

I never assume anyone is friendly myself. When it comes to an establishment, however, we should expect them to at least be cordial to us since we are a paying customer.

[I Am Paula]

While going into a straight bar might get you a BAD reaction (violent, or verbal), going into a gay bar may be friendly, or indifferent. If the clientele choses not to be exactly friendly, at least they will just ignore you. From going to gay bars for thirty years, from drab, to drag queen, to garden variety trans woman, I've only encountered grief from a few lesbians. The ugliest thing one ever said to me was, in standing in line for the lady's room "You could go next door, I'm sure there's a urinal free". Ouch!!
IMHO, yes, you can walk into a gay bar unannounced, and assume it will be safe haven, but they may not love you.

[Rogina B]

I think you can find intolerance at any venue you choose but I still think a Gay bar still is a more friendly place to go unless you choose a Leather one

The different"lifestyles" all have their own crowds with it's own drama. Some places have different nights for different lifestyles and there may be better nights for making new friends than others..Bears can be just as cold as the leather crowd but they usually aren't so physical! lol Lesbian bars can have the "tough crowd" or the softer crowd.... I think a TG person is safe at most mainstream decent places if they behave. Sport's bars are usually too testosterone charged and no place for the socially inexperienced. Looking your blendable best,having confidence in your self and accepting that all people may not be warm to you,is key to going anywhere. A thick skin helps a lot ,also!

[kimdl93]

The test of a hypothesis is real life experience. In my incredibly small sample of Houston gay bars 100% were found to be fully accepting. I couldn't conduct a comprehensive survey of gay patrons, but those I met were equally so.

Are there unaccepting gay males...sure, but in my again limited experience, I would say the proportion is smaller than the general population.