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Thread: Why is it assumed that a gay bar is cross dresser freindly?

  1. #26
    Pooh Bear Judith96a's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm odd (or just more odd than the rest of us) but I wouldn't necessarily perceive a 'gay' bar (by which I mean a bar that predominantly caters for gay males) as being any safer than a 'straight' bar. In fact, I might be less comfortable there than in a 'straight' bar, simply because in the sort of 'gay' bar to which I refer there will be proportionately fewer women (if any at all)! (I've never really been comfortable in the company of men who have been drinking)

    I have been to one particular lesbian bar in London on several occasions and have always felt comfortable there. The door policy is effectively "No men, unless accompanying and vouched for by a woman" (they don't quite insist on men being on a lead and muzzled!) However, their attitude to cross dressing males appears to be "OK, we know that you're really a fella but you're doing your best to look like a woman. So...we'll play along so long as you behave appropriately - no escort required". I can live with that!

  2. #27
    TrueNorth Strong & Fierce Princess Chantal's Avatar
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    Like Kim, all my experiences with the gay themed establishments in Winnipeg, Providence and Boston have been 100% acceptable/tolerant of my tg friends and I. Matter have fact the Winnipeg establishments were more of 100% welcoming of us. Two of them even offered to open their doors (on a night when they usually were closed) for the Masquerade group to use as our monthly meetings.
    Then on the other hand I haven't had issues at heteronormal clubs either. Will be at a sports bar for an event this Saturday in which a few of us would be crossdressed for it.

  3. #28
    Senior Member Melissa Rose's Avatar
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    It is an assumption that all LGBT establishments welcome all in the T community. As others have stated or alluded to, generally speaking, the patrons of most gay bars and clubs tend to be more tolerant than those in designated non-LGBT establishments, but it is not universal. For example, there are some lesbian bars where any man of any sexual orientation, cross dressed or not, are rarely welcomed. While not all patrons in gay bars and clubs are friendly, tolerant and/or accepting to those in the T community, it is more likely to be the case. Some assume tolerance means acceptance or understanding, but they are not the same.

    While we are dancing around the subject of assumptions, another one, IMHO, is the concept of TG-friendly establishments. Places or stores are not TG-friendly - it is the people in them including the customers. While some companies have stronger LGBT policies, there are reports of good and bad experiences in the exact same places. Just as for gay bars and clubs, it is more about the employees and customers in a place at any given time than the actual place.

  4. #29
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    I have been going out dressed for over 30 years. I have been to a number of gay and lesbian bars. Some bars are friendlier than others, but thats the same as going to any bar when dressed as a male. I think the general attitude of most gays towards the TG community is one of tolerance. I remember years ago I attended a event called the Long Island Drag Invasion. It was a charity event and it was a bus filled with us girls and we went to a bunch of gay bars and solicited money for the charity, which I think was something for AIDS related. It was a riot. At one bar I got into a very nice conversation with a younger gay male. We both told each other when we realized we were gay or a TG. When I recall that story I remember us both feeling that we weren't that much different from each other in many ways. I think that's how attitudes change when people talk to each other.

  5. #30
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    My experience has been mixed. I have known many gays who are accepting of cross dressers but I have also encountered some who are virulently anti-cross dressers. If you look at internet sites for gay bath houses you will be struck by rules that disallow cross dressing. I have been to a very pleasant gay bath house in San Jose, CA that will not allow any cross dressing in public areas, though you are free to dress in your room.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LisaK View Post
    There's a general assumption that since we're all under the LGBT umbrella
    This is an assumption that I think is quite common. We all are tolerant of each other because we are all under the rainbow flag.

    I think Crossdressers are the least understood and least tolerated group of all. Anywhere!!

    Heck there are days we don't even tolerate each other!!! Reference some of the "Man in a dress" discussions and discussions on "putting effort" into presentation and ability to pass. Some in the past on this board but also others.

    For some reason the Dr. Seuss book on the star bellied creatures comes to mind.

    For me the bottom line is --If your going out, know where you are going!! Do your homework and scout it out first. I have been treated well, and not so well, and sometimes it has really surprised me by who.
    Last edited by Seana Summer; 01-14-2015 at 11:00 AM.

  7. #32
    Platinum Blonde member Ressie's Avatar
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    I like this thread because I've only been in one gay bar. Hearing experiences from other members is enlightening. Melissa Rose's post (along with others) makes sense.
    "You're the only one to see the changes you take yourself through", Stevie Wonder

  8. #33
    New Member katieh's Avatar
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    I try to visit a bar first in my male persona and try to get a feel for the place. A good tip and a polite conversation with a bartender will usually help out. When dressed I have been completely ignored, questioned about my dressing or hit on (after gently explaining I am happily married and not looking; you may be ignored) I don't recall any threating experiences. Most of the time people are really nice and you can relax and have a good time.

  9. #34
    Aspiring Member StarrOfDelite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BARBARA_MELENDEZ View Post
    I think you can find intolerance at any venue you choose but I still think a Gay bar still is a more friendly place to go unless you choose a Leather one
    Totally on point the with both of your comments.

    I hate to generalize, but the types of men who go to Gay Leather bars are interested in "Manly Men" not men in women's clothes. There is a leather bar about 2 miles from my home which has more motorcycles outside it on Friday night than the local chapter house of the Hells Angels. I doubt that I would be very welcome there.

    On the other hand, the more sophisticated type of Gay bar usually is pretty much either Trans friendly, or Trans indifferent. Either one is fine by me.

    I was also struck by Judith96a's comments about not being comfortable being in a gay bar when one might be the only woman, trans or genetic, in the entire place, and about going to Lesbian bars. I remember one night when I went to an alternative bar on its monthly Lesbian Night, and everything was cool, and I had some interesting conversations with the other patrons. They were very curious about my lifestyle and my motivations.
    Last edited by StarrOfDelite; 01-14-2015 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Additional comments.

  10. #35
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Never assume a gay bar will be anymore transfriendly than any other business. Here in Denver we have a bar that proved the point. As with most "communities" the gay community has sub-sets. In this case "Bears". Now I know T's who like bears. I know bears who like T's but at this bar the owners made a conscious decision not to allow T's in. They did this by making a rule, that technically was in accordance to written law but is really not enforceable (Many people change appearance over time). http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...ching-your-ID# But in the Denver area there are probably 20 "gay" bars. Out of those maybe half actively allow T's. All but the one above will tolerate a T but it isn't much fun just being tolerated.

    Best bet is to talk to the trans people in your area. Now on top of all that I have friends who go dancing at "straight" clubs all the time. But that is Denver, where they pretty much let you do what you want as long as it isn't illegal. Oh and I have been asked to go to a leather bar. You just should know someone there (besides why can't a T be into leather?)
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  11. #36
    Texas gal sherri's Avatar
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    No need for theorizing or hypothesizing -- a little search of these archives or a few evenings out will answer your questions pretty quick. We gravitate to gay environments because -- keeping in mind I'm painting with broad strokes here and there are exceptions to all of the following --
    • Gays (i,e, gays/lesbians) are used to flaunting convention and are not shocked or disturbed by gender bending.
    • While not all that accepting, gays do tolerate tgs in their midst.
    • Those of us who normally function in the straight world run less risk of bumping into someone we know in gay venues.
    • Gays are familiar with prejudice and tend to be more discrete and protective of "the big secret" outside their own culture.

    The notion of acceptance warrants clarification. Ime, gays are generally accepting of our right to be tg, but not so accepting of us as potential partners or close friends. I've had numerous gays and lesbians tell me straight up they do not understand crossdressing or transgender. Frankly, they're not all that comfortable with bi-sexuality either. My conclusion is gays prefer black and white just as much as straights do. I think lesbians are a little more open and embracing than gays, at least at the casual level.

    That said, it is possible to "earn" some degree of acceptance within a local gay community if you're willing to put in the time and effort and are outgoing enough. It took me a long time, but that was mostly my fault for being such a shrinking violet. But that acceptance doesn't usually extend beyond the club, if you know what I mean. I call these "bar friends", and in 15 years of circulating in the local gay comm, only once have I been embraced into personal lives and activities -- by a small group of close gay friends. We had some nice times but it sorta went away when the group disintegrated (gays do love their drama, dontcha know).

    One more thought about acceptance: I believe one big reason why gays keep their distance is due to being uncomfortable in the company of cders out in public. Lots of gays are still in the closet to some degree, and even those who are openly "out" aren't advertising their orientation in public the way a crossdresser does. I mean, to them we're like neon signs. Ironically, gays and lesbians I've made friends with seem to communicate in subtle ways that they think if this is who I am I should own it. They seemed puzzled that I hide my gender identity from family and friends, or shy away from some environments/venues. I don't think they respect hedging the bet, so to speak.

    Oh, btw -- I want to note that in 15 years of going out, I've done 99% of it by myself, and here locally, 9 times out of 10 I've been the only mtf TG in the club or wherever. Fwiw. But in the lesbian bars, I've always been of the opinion there are lots of cders there if you count the butch lesbians. I mean, those gals are working the guy thing pretty hard, if you know what I mean.
    Last edited by sherri; 01-14-2015 at 01:25 PM.

  12. #37
    Senior Member samantha rogers's Avatar
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    From my experience, I have found gay bars totally tolerant and accepting. Having said that, it is one thing to be tolerant, and quite another to be interested. I have found interest from gay guys to be all over the map, as might be expected. Some are totally put off though polite. Others are friendly and fun, and others actually will come on to you (so be prepared). Its a mixed bag. But, as others have said, the key difference is the level of acceptance and lack of threat of attack in contrast to straight venues.
    Just anecdotally, I was at a gay bar once with a couple of friends. I needed to use the loo, and came to discover that both rooms normally had the doors propped open and no internal latch. Quite gallantly, witnessing my trepidation, one of the larger guys stepped forward, unpropped the door so I could close it, and then stood guard outside while I took care of things. He was so sweet. A real gentleman.
    Every fear that held me back, when faced, has proven to be hollow.
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  13. #38
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    Once stopped in a very interesting bar/restaurant in San Francisco while on the way home from work with colleagues. We had been intrigued by this place for some time and it had a French name and looked like a little restaurant. So, one evening at around 5:30 we stopped for a drink. The back room was filled with guys dressed in leather and military clothing and although we stayed by the bar and did not intrude we got a lot of "hard" looks. Clearly we were not welcome.
    On another occasion I was at a bar in the Castro and a woman and man were at the bar deep in conversation when a tough looking man came up and told her that she was not welcome in that place. I thought that very rude especially as the conversation seemed to be about her brother who I guess was gay and they were just talking to one another.

    If a group of people ask for tolerance and understanding of their lifestyle, shouldn't they practice tolerance and understanding too?

  14. #39
    Gold Member DonnaT's Avatar
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    Because experiences of others that have been discussed usually are positive experiences, and because many gay bars have ongoing drag shows, which would make the place appear to be T friendly to some degree.

    One I use to go to even advertised a special night for the trans community.
    DonnaT

  15. #40
    Member "Gabriela"'s Avatar
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    I guess it depends on the kind of people that go to the place. If it's a so called LGBT place, then the people should understand that giving hard looks to a TG person is not good.

  16. #41
    Senior Member Ceera's Avatar
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    Long before I ever started cross dressing, more than thirty years ago, when I was still in my 20's, I would occasionally go to a gay/lesbian bar. I was 'functionally straight', but knew that I was bisexually inclined. I'd had a few gay encounters that were pleasurable, even though I was trying very hard to 'play it straight', for fear of the reactions of family and friends. I'd go there just for a drink and to people watch, and not try to pick anyone up.

    I'd go as a male, whether it was a place hosting male strippers and packed with men, or if it was a posted 'girls night' where the venue was mostly lesbians. I enjoyed watching everyone, but didn't gawk or stare. I also wasn't trying really to chat anyone up, of either gender. I was polite to others if spoken to, they were polite to me in return, and I had a pleasant night of it, without anyone hitting on me or being disrespectful of me being there.

    Thirty years later, widowed after being in a straight monogamous marriage for 30 years, and not going to gay bars at all while I was married, I decided to explore my 'feminine impulses' and try cross dressing. The advice on-line was, as others have said, that in general a gay bar was a safe bet for a first outing as a CD, especially if the venue hosted drag shows. Local reviews also indicated that the gay bars in my town were likely to be the most lively after 11PM or so.

    I checked the reviews for several gay clubs in my home town, and found one in particular that had a drag show every Saturday night. It was also convenient to my neighborhood, and wouldn't require me to be 'out' in a downtown area where I would have to encounter a lot of straight people while dressed.

    It was the first place I went 'out' as a woman, and I found it a very friendly and accepting place. The staff greeted me with friendly smiles and welcomed me. At close to midnight on a Saturday, the place was quite crowded, and the drag review was just ending on the dance floor. It was an ethnically mixed crowd - blacks, whites and Hispanics primarily, matching the general neighborhood mix for the East side of my town. At a guess I would say it was about 60% men dressed as men, 25% males in drag, and 15% actual women, with most of the real women fairly obvious lesbians, or bisexual in their activities. I went back on other nights, when they wasn't a drag show, and found the mix to have slightly more lesbian or bisexual women on those nights, and fewer gay males or CD's. Say about 55% gay males, 40% lesbian or bi women, and 5% cross dressers.

    Some of the patrons look past me or ignore me. I'm not what they're looking for, and that's fine. But most are friendly, and I usually get to dance with people of both birth genders, and I've had both end up buying me drinks and spending part of my evening with me. I've usually had no issues with asking someone of either gender to dance with me. In six months of going there, I've only once been addressed as a male when presenting as female, and that was by someone who was new to the venue, and who didn't know any better. Everyone else has treated me as a female, even though I'm certain most of them clocked me.

    Now I will admit, some of the people that I encounter at that club aren't clear on the differences between a drag queen and a cross dresser or a transgendered individual, even when they're friendly. One lesbian girl who loved my outfit and how I was presenting and who invited me to join her and her girlfriends for the evening couldn't quite understand that I wasn't that interested in doing exaggerated makeup and lip synching to a female voice track while dancing for the crowd.

    Are other places or certain individuals less tolerant and accepting? Probably. But I'd still say that a 'gay bar' that hosts drag shows is a safe place for CD/TG people to hang out.

  17. #42
    Silver Member Jodi's Avatar
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    I tend to agree with LisaK on her comment about safety. Certain gay men might not like or understand a trans person, but generally, gay men will not react with violence.

    Jodi


    Quote Originally Posted by LisaK View Post
    There's a general assumption that since we're all under the LGBT umbrella that a gay bar is still a much safer place to go out than a straight bar. You're way less likely to get your ass kicked by some douchebag bros at a gay bar.

    From personal experience, there are plenty of gay guys who are every bit as transphobic, but they don't tend to lash out violently. I would still recommend to anyone going out dressed for the first time that a gay bar is a good, safe place to spread your wings. Once you're used to that, going to straight bars or just out in public in general becomes less frightening.

  18. #43
    Gold Member NicoleScott's Avatar
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    Maybe it's not a matter of how gay/lesbian people feel about CDers, but how businesses see them as potential customers. The club I went to was known mainly as a lesbian hangout, but there were all kinds there. It had special events on given days (drag queen Tuesday, karaoke Wednesday,, drag king Thursday...), designed, I'm sure, to bring in customers. I'm sure the business wouldn't appreciate mistreatment of their customers.
    I noticed that there was a lot of light to moderate displays of affection (hand-holding, hugging, kissing...) between same-sex partners, activities that the participants might not feel as permissible to do at the Red Lobster bar. In a similar way, I felt more comfortable as a crossdresser going to a place I viewed as more tolerant of diversity, and I didn't mind that I was seen as a [quite obvious] crossdresser. No problems. I had a great time the several times I went.

  19. #44
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    I don't go out to bars dressed, but I've been to gay bars and there's definitely a different feel to each place, just as there would be anywhere else. Common sense is all that's needed.

    From my experience, most gay guys aren't into CD's very much. They are gay because they like masculinity, so minimizing those features is unattractive or uninteresting. I think that we CDs are part of a group of people of all orientations who enjoy genderbending. Since that involves elements of both male and female presentation, I must wonder if there aren't more bisexual or bi-curious CDs than it seems.

    All of that is just theory, though. I don't know any of it for sure.

  20. #45
    Senior Member Lori Kurtz's Avatar
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    There's such diversity in human experience that I can't justify generalizing from any isolated experience. But here is one more piece of data to throw into the discussion. Years ago, I had a conversation with a couple of older gay friends who didn't (and still don't) know about my CDing, and who had been together for many years, and who had lived though a lot of gay history. They had negative feelings toward straight CDers, because they felt that the general public thinks crossdressing is sick and weird, and that the general public associates crossdressing with gayness. My friends' feeling was that, because of that, crossdressers give the general public just one more reason to hate gay people. And they felt that crossdressing is a completely optional activity, so why do crossdressers choose to cause embarrassment and trouble for themselves and for gay people? I'm not proud that, because I was (and still am) deeply closeted, I was not able to help them understand anything about what crossdressing is all about for people like me and many of the other people here. My friends are not openly hostile toward CDers, but I suspect that they are not the only gays who have those attitudes. And maybe that is part of the explanation for why some gay bars might be less welcome environments for CDers than others.

  21. #46
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    At least in Dallas, you are safer in the gay or lesbian bars. In some cases a lot safer. My roommate, who's visibly trans, has been assaulted in parts of North Dallas / Plano / Frisco. Down here in the gayborhood, she's fine. In fact, she's had a guy recently come to her defense down here when a homeless guy who was belligerent and trying to take her money. (Her defender owned the local gay leather bar, turns out.)

    Look, no place is perfectly safe - crimes happen down here in rainbow land. Some people come down here looking for trouble - although that doesn't happen much because the DPD take a really dim view of this.

    The gay community, if nothing else, has drag culture, and so cross dressing is accepted in that context, and lots of gay folks may not understand that there are hetero CDs, but they do mostly at least know that transitioning trans people exist, and generally show respect in my experience.

  22. #47
    Member Taylor Ray's Avatar
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    My experience is that my gay friends think crossdressing is "weird" and they are not into it.

  23. #48
    Transgender Member Dianne S's Avatar
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    I have a transgender friend who likes going to gay bars. She has a girlfriend and likes the fact that guys at gay bars won't hit on her if she's presenting as a female. In her experience, she finds gays less judgemental because they are familiar with being an oppressed minority.

    I've had very little experience either way; I went to a lesbian bar once; the bartenders were friendly and everyone else ignored me and my friends.

  24. #49
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    Oh wait - I know! Perhaps the confusion at hand is caused by a misunderstanding of the word "friendly?"

    The phrase "gay bars are cross dresser friendly" really means you are significantly less likely to be beaten up, ridiculed, or tossed out on your ear for showing up CDed at the gay bar than in most straight bars. So in this context "friendly" really means "significantly less likely to be beaten up, ridiculed, or tossed out."

    It does not mean that you'll get a reaction like "Dayum girl! You look fabulous in those heels!", although that can happen. That would be another type of friendly.

  25. #50
    Martini Girl Katey888's Avatar
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    Two parts to the OP...

    Gay CDers having unapproving partners... I think I can understand that. Like many of you here I've read and absorbed much of the discussion regarding partners attitudes, including the obvious one where some GG SOs will probably never accept that CDing is driven by a GENDER flexibility and not necessarily a SEXUAL one. In that context I can conceive of intolerance in either gender and of any sexuality.

    The other part is:
    "Why is it assumed that a gay bar is cross dresser friendly?"
    and
    "..my contention is that gay males are no more or less accepting of a cross dresser than the straights in non-gay bars. "
    but those two statements are not aligned.
    The first relates to a statement of POLICY regarding a gay bar (by which I assume you mean any LGB friendly venue) which would tend to mean that the management actively promotes tolerance and trains its staff accordingly. In those circumstances I would expect a venue to be more accommodating of the unconventional way we present even if it didn't embrace the 'T' part of the community, as many venues actively do. I would be less likely to think that a gay bar of male-only policy would be as tolerant, but I see no reason that they would not be safe, but it would not be my choice.
    The second relates to clientele, and I have no reason to argue with this point, other than to say that even if they were less tolerant, the policies of the venue would be what reassured me that I would be accepted. I'd also expect security to be more pro-active than normal club venues, particularly with respect to any intolerance.

    I think we're also missing one major point here: that related to the sexuality of CDers. Not many seem to define as gay, but a large number - possibly a majority - do define as bisexual or bi-curious, and presumably that would put them quite sensibly in the LGB camp, regardless of how they present? That would seem to make gay/LGB venues as quite valid for those CDers, and so presumably safe and tolerant for hetero-CDers, because who can tell by looking at us?

    Katey x
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    Rinse and curl your hair - Loosen your hips, and get a dress to wear"
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