Gender v Sexual orientation

[Katie Russell]

Hi

I've read a few posts where the SO has questioned her own sexuality (Am I a lesbian) when her partner presents as female. Underneath all the clothes, make up etc she knows he is still a genetic male but it doesn't stop her questioning her sexuality. I know a lesbian couple where one is feminine and the other very masculine. They don't question their sexual orientation as how they present is not important it is how they feel about each other that matters.

I've also seen a programme on Thai ladyboys where the men dating a ladyboy do not consider themselves gay despite the fact that their partner still has male parts. In that case it is the presentation and again how the person feels that matters.

Clinically a male/female relationship cannot be deemed homosexual. But psychologically can a male/female relationship where both present as female be considered lesbian? I guess it's all down the the perception of the individual.

I think that the point I am trying to make is that a SO looking at a partner presenting as a female knows he is male but she is concerned that the attraction to the female presentation questions her sexuality. Do you think that this is the case? Is it possible to look at a member of the same sex and find them attractive without being gay? I have a friend who swears he can't tell if a man is attractive to women or not, I'm sure I can. Some members here present as attractive females. Is a man finding their femininity attractive or their sex?

I know that gender and sex aren't the same but the blurring of the two does create question on sexual orientation. I'd be interested to hear your views.

Katie

[charlenesomeone]

I think sexual attraction can be many things, ie. visual, scents, mental image, and many more.
Anything that may interrupt one, can stop that attraction. It can be something that only one partner may not like.
Not a therapist but stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.
Hugs

[AllieSF]

I think that the spouse is more concerned how he/she will appear to others outside the relationship, whether it be seen as a lesbian relationship or a male and female one where one is an out crossdresser. I read that here from spouses a lot. Just the other day one wife complained that she would be embarrassed to be known as a wife of a crossdresser. So, a lot of people are more concerned what third parties will think. Same thing a lot of parents go through when first learning to deal with a homosexual child. Hopefully they get over that feeling once they get their minds around the whole situation. However and unfortunately, some never can really get to that point.

[pamela7]

i like this thread, its very interesting to me,thank you Katie for raising this.

I am blind to what women see as attractive in men, so I can confirm that. I only know if a woman looks at me in a certain way that she and I resonate (I am happily married by the way).

I am sure we cannot be CD'ers without causing these questions in ourselves and our SO's. To me, being in CD makes me get more of a female perspective, well the perspective caused by the clothes at least, so I'm more gentle, caring, considering others needs, less messy, less stereotypically male. Discussing with my SO, we're very clear we have a hetero relationship, but i can see that it could be called gay or lesbian if someone chose to look at it that way.

As social judgements do matter, I am wondering this ...

what if the SO also dresses in disguise, so no-one knows who either are? Then there's none of the fear or embarrassment. Its like a public role-reversal in effect?

these are just ideas/feelings coming out, i welcome any responses :-)

[Kate Simmons]

We may think we are a lot of things but in the end our actions speak volumes about us. I have settled into accepting people for who they are as people rather than what they choose to look like or how they express. That's just me though as most people seem to need labels.

[MichelleDevon]

Pamela, as you say, an interesting topic, and one which has given me cuase to stop and question my own sexuality over the last few years.

In my life BM (Before Michelle) I would always have stated that I was unequivocally heterosexual. However having been exposed (as it were!) to t-girls in the support group and elsewhere my perspective has definitely shifted. I can find another t-girl very attractive, stimulating even! So I have a close friendship with one of our group which definitely has gone beyond a mere friendship level. But this occurs only if we meet in girlie mode - so I presume that I am looking at the way someone presents - if you look and dress like an attractive woman then that sparks my interest. And I am quite capable of being aroused and have been known on occasions to take that further...and, I am not ashamed to admit, enjoyed so doing. I know that the person I am with is really another man but whilst we are both in our femme persona that seems to enable me to see the goalposts in a different place. Does that mean I have homosexual tendencies or just that I am somehow over-riding my "normal" sexual orientation? I am inclined to the view that it points towards being more "bi-".

As for my relationship with my wife, I think she has difficulty being around me as Michelle - I am sure she finds it hard, if not impossible, to disassociate Michelle from the person she married almost 40 years ago. She doesn't seem to be turned on in any way by Michelle so I guess, like me, that is the brain interpreting me as a female and if she is entirely heterosexual then she would not be sexually interested in Michelle. I suspect this is more to do with her consciously or subconsciously suppressing any such reaction but it isn't something we have ever discussed.

For my part I have always had something of a fantasy about a quasi-lesbian relationship - I'm not sure where that fits into this rambling...All I can say with any degree of certainty is that whilst I still myself as being male I am no longer prepared to assert that I am 100% heterosexual. Am I confused? No, I don't think so; more open-minded about sexuality issues than I used to be BM. Do I care? No, I am just accepting the situation and enjoying whatever comes my way

Michelle
xxx

[Danitgirl1]

Fwiw, I wonder if sexual orientation is not really some sort of social construct that we adhere to for convenience sake? We humans love to label things so that we can box, identify and claim to understand. It also allows false inferences to be made and easily justified using 'evidence'.
However it seems to me that there is a lot more fluidity than we realise. Some transexuals seem to 'flip' orientation after transitioning, some crossdressers report having feelings for other crossdressers or men, but only when dressed. The Kinsey report blew open the idea of hetero vs homo sexual behaviour and introduced the notion of a continuum in this regard.
People (like Jenniferathome, if I remember correctly) reduce it to the sex organs that are present and this may be a useful 'working' definition, but I wonder if the truth of human behaviour is that we are all just plain sexual and that given a set of circumstances, a personal history and an individual psyche any number of variations and outcomes may be possible. Some (due to socialisation, religious belief, self identity or whatever) will say 'I am purely heterosexual'. Others may be more open and say 'I am bisexual' others may reject sexuality and prefer to abstain...
Throw in emotions, the need for love and the feeling of loving and being loved, the joy of touching another human being etc and the waters can get quite muddy I think.
In the end we are all human and I wonder of the label just prevents us from being true to ourselves?
What matters more to me is that the relationship is healthy, mutually beneficial and consensual...
Of course it is interesting how gender influences our view of sexual orientation...
Not sure if this makes sense or adds anything but it is a summary of my (rambling) thoughts on the subject.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Katie, It's mind over matter, If you don't mind then it doesn't matter !

[CarlaWestin]

My wife is 100% accepting of gay people and has many close gay friends, male and female. She's even commented that she wouldn't be adverse to exploring lesbian activity if she were to become single again. Her rational, at least a woman would know what to do.

But, she would prefer that I be 101% male, 24/7 even if I'm faking it. And, she's thoroughly disgusted if she detects so much as clear fingernail polish on my pinky toe.
Social conditioning and perception and early religious influence. Nothing more.

[scarletcd]

Fwiw, I wonder if sexual orientation is not really some sort of social construct that we adhere to for convenience sake? We humans love to label things so that we can box, identify and claim to understand. It also allows false inferences to be made and easily justified using 'evidence'.

I've often wondered this. Me and my partner are both quite fluid when it comes to sexuality.
One of the first questions I get asked time and time again is "Are you gay". When I tell them that I don't strictly fall into one camp when it comes to sexuality they respond with "Oh so your partner is gay?".

[Katie Russell]

Hi Blue

It doesn't matter to me but it does matter to society as a whole. As a member of society I'm as guilty as anyone in pigeon holing people. I know it's not fair and I can't help it but it's part of my conditioning - the need to belong to a group is primitive drive. I think young people are far more open to there not being a 'normal' and maybe the labels will disappear overtime but until they do we're stuck with them.

As previous posters alluded to, given the right time an the right place we might all question our gender / sexual fluidity. Maybe that should be the new normal! Just need to convince the rest of society.

I read a quote that said 'Normal is only a matter of opinion' which I l thought was great.

Katie

[Dana3]

But, she would prefer that I be 101% male, 24/7 even if I'm faking it. And, she's thoroughly disgusted if she detects so much as clear fingernail polish on my pinky toe.
Social conditioning and perception and early religious influence. Nothing more.

peop

You've just hit the nail square on the head my hand, and it is this that is the basis of most any and all objections to men attiring themselves as women do, more or less, to one degree and/or the other. Net result? They just don't like it................................ Even though they haven't given any deep thought nor subscription as to why?

Sexual orientation aside, and being all together a different horse of a different color than gender orientation, people tend to irrationally pick and chose from "NORMAL" and "TRADTIONAL" from which to filter their values, beliefs and gyro-compass in going about their perception of THEIR reality.

[mykell]

hi katie,
great thread,
i found it interesting that it is not so much the persons orientation as much as the association to the presentation of individuals in the examples shared,
so would sexual association "vs" gender be more accurate, just a thought.....

[Katie Russell]

Hi Mikell

I just found it interesting how someones presentation can affect their sexual orientation. Maybe how you present can free you from the shackles of normality and allow you to express your inner most feeling? I read a previous post about the assumption that post-op a transexual should be attracted to men. But in reality this just isn't the case. A post-op transexual is free to be attracted to whoever they want and it is only society that dictate the norm would be to be attracted to a male as they are now female.

Maybe when we dress we are not attractive to our partners just because we are not attractive to them when dressed. It is nothing to do with being a lesbian it's just physical attraction. As Carla said her SO would not be adverse to exploring activity but presumably with the right person.

Maybe Gender presentation affecting sexual orientation would be a better title.

Katie

[Katey888]

Katie - there must be something about this time of year as you replied to a thread I posted similar to this EXACTLY a year ago (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...speak-its-name) How spooky is that...

So what have I learnt in a year?
That the question I was asking then is still relevant but I'm happier that seeing someone as visually attractive has nothing to do with sexual attraction. My orientation has not changed - but some may say that's just because I haven't met the right person..

That gender and sexuality in the human sphere is anything but rigid, and yes Dani, society establishes what it wants regarding gender and sexuality - our western hetero-centric culture pushes machismo, misogyny and chauvinism to the fore in a still very binary world. Most muggles are comfortable with this, but then most are not like us! Earlier aspects of civilisation have accepted bi- or homsexuality as a regular state of affairs - there is still stigma attached to this today - reference Tim Cook's belated coming out (would he have made CEO after that announcement...?) and the latent bigotry that still exists in our own community towards the LGB side of things... you see that here quite often..

I'm beginning to think that while some would like to separate gender (how you feel in your mind) from sexuality (who you're attracted to) and genetic sex (your physical sex), that's also borne of a societal comfort and those three things are actually so interlinked and play a big part in determining who we are and how we behave, that it's really difficult to separate them. I think folk who do are somehow kidding themselves that they are not related - perhaps for very good relationship reasons. Let me expand a little...

As you say, some here present as attractive females (if one didn't know any better); more than that, some of us go out of our way to present as very acceptable females - generally those that are more blessed in the hereditary features arena, but many of us try so hard to be 'attractive', that can't be all about just 'blending'... because a more androgynous look would probably be better for that... so why the pursuit of attractiveness..? And can you be attractive without being sexy...? In a male/female world, I'd say no - you can't separate those things either.

Lord knows where that leaves most of us...

Quite a conundrum, it seems...

Komplicated Katey x

[Kris Avery]

Katie,

I guess it's a case of outward "appearances" (being seen in public)
- if the GM passed, then they would be seen as lesbian - by others.

OR

inward "feelings" (how the two feel about each other)
- if the GM is really a TS = the TS is lesbian (from her perspective) -(ding ding ding - is this a bell ringing)
- if the GG is attracted = she is also a lesbian
- if the GG is not attracted = she is heterosexual

My views only

[Jenniferathome]

....a SO looking at a partner presenting as a female knows he is male but she is concerned that the attraction to the female presentation questions her sexuality. ...

No. No woman here has expressed a question about their sexuality. They all have stated clearly that they re straight and not attracted to women. So, because they can not find the female image "attractive" the while presentation thing is a turn off.

[ReineD]

We've had a few single GGs join this site over the years, stating specifically that they found CDers sexually exciting and hoping to meet someone. The sexual orientation of these GGs is not black and white but I'm guessing they don't waste a lot of time wondering if they're lesbian. And then there is the question of whether they are attracted to natal females as well. I'm rather guessing thy aren't, else why would they specifically come to a forum that is comprised mostly of birth-males who identify as CD? It's the same with male Admirers … as you say, they don't consider themselves homosexual because they are not attracted to men who do not CD, but they are not hetero either because they are not attracted to GGs.

So the question might be, is it a sexual kink for these GGs and Admirers (do they want to be with someone for whom the female presentation is fetish) or are they genuinely attracted to feminine men for whom the feminine presentation is not sexual? Are they genuinely attracted to someone who fits outside the gender binary?

On the other hand, I've seen GGs in this forum ask whether or not they are lesbian in a context where, either they would rather their partner not be a CDer, or they are rather neutral about it. It's not as if they are really wondering if they are lesbian (these GGs know they are not attracted to natal females), IMO it's more an affirmation that they are not lesbian and so how do they go about enjoying their SO sexually while crossdressed. Something similar happened to me. Earlier on in my relationship, I became convinced that my SO was sexually attracted to either men or lesbians. This caused some angst because I wanted to be with my SO, but the idea of being sexually intimate with someone who is or wants to be a woman in bed and who is thus attracted to female-attracted folks, is a turn-off because I'm not female-attracted even though I'm attracted to my SO. It's a very fuzzy area and difficult to define, because much is hinged upon the original motivation to dress, which can also be blurry.

AllieSF mentions the impression that strangers get when they see my SO and I out dressed; we have decided to not be affectionate in public (holding hands, kissing), not because we care whether they think I'm a lesbian or not, but because two women holding hands does still attract attention. This would cause others to take a few more seconds to observe us and thus potentially read my SO, who prefers to pass as a woman in public rather than as a CDer. Allie also brought up the question of having the people in our personal lives know that my SO is TG (this is inherently different than having them think that my SO is a woman and thus lesbian, because they know him as a male). We do not want to come out to coworkers, friends and acquaintances because there is still bias against men who crossdress and we do not wish to have doors closed to us when my partner presents in male mode; we don't want to be the subject of gossip and finger-pointing among the people who are a part of our daily lives.

MichelleDevon brings up the question of two CDs/TGs being attracted to each other but only while they are dressed (she mentions meeting in girlie mode). This raises a question: if it is a genuine, bi-gender/bi-sexual romantic attraction to the person, then what would it matter how they are dressed. If there is only a sexual attraction while dressed, then is it fundamentally a kink?

[Kate T]

This question is fraught with difficulties.

Firstly, reliable information is almost non existent. I would make the following observations bearing in mind that there is generally an extreme reluctance for most people to PUBLICLY discuss sexuality generally and GG's in particular based on a number of studies. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. Hell, I don't really care what your sexuality is.

1. MOST GG's in a relationship with a CD, DO NOT see themselves as being sexually intimate with a woman. They are sexually intimate with a man who has an unusual interest. Some find that interesting and fun, some don't but are comfortable accommodating it. THEY ARE STILL HAVING SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH A PHYSICAL MALE.
2. MOST GG's sexuality does NOT change just because their partner CD's or is TS. As discussed in point 1, if their partner is CD they generally are still attracted to the male bits just with a bit of unusual decoration. If their partner is TS then I suspect most GG's innate sexual drive does not alter and if they met their partner for the first time AFTER they had transitioned then in all likelihood they would not be physically attracted to them.
3. SOME GG's in long term relationships with TS seem to establish a way to stay intimate with their partner post transition. I disagree (in the nicest way though as more a difference of interpretation ) with some members who believe that a majority of post transition relationships are chaste. However I am yet to see a large body of evidence to convince me either way, I am relying mostly on anecdotal evidence. I DO NOT think these GG's are female attracted, they don't suddenly find women generally physically attractive once their partner transitions. I think the "romantic love" physical attraction model has a lot to do with this where there is so much sharing and life intimacy that the attraction for the couple extends past the early relationship physical attraction and becomes bonded in something different related to who their partner is as a whole, not just their physical sex.
4. There are some GG's who find sexually ambiguous people attractive. I don't know if it is a "kink" any more than the GG who finds women attractive is a "kink". Annalee Newitz, Jane Anders partner, has stated previously that she actively pursued a relationship with Jane knowing she was non conventionally gendered and physically sexually ambiguous.

Personally I think describing sexuality based almost exclusively on physical attributes does not really accurately describe the whole concept. Seriously, how many people only have physical intimacy with lights blaring or in broad daylight so you can know what your partner looks like? There is little doubt that it plays an important part but I think there is so much more to sexuality particularly at a personal level.

[PaulaQ]

I've also seen a programme on Thai ladyboys where the men dating a ladyboy do not consider themselves gay despite the fact that their partner still has male parts. In that case it is the presentation and again how the person feels that matters.

Now wait just one pea-picking minute here, Katie. The reason the men who date the Thai trans women don't consider themselves gay is because they aren't gay. They are dating women. Unless you want to tell me that I'm just a delusional dude in a dress, and am not, never have been, nor ever will be a woman - then they must be women, too. If sex organs are the deciding factor on sexual orientation, then I guess I'll never be a woman, because I'll never have a real vagina, uterus, ovaries. I'll have a plastic surgery replica of one of those, but as much as I'd like it - it isn't technological feasible at present for me to have a full set of female sex organs.

That isn't what makes me a woman! My brain is what makes me a woman. That it mismatches my body so grotesquely has been the source of most of my life's woes.

So to answer your questions:
1. A male identified person in a relationship with a female identified person is in a straight relationship.
2. A female identified person in a relationship with a female identified person is in a lesbian relationship.
3. A male identified person in a relationship with a male identified person is in a gay relationship.

Sure, it can be a really big shock for a straight identified woman to discover that when her MtF partner transitions, she's now in a lesbian relationship. Suddenly she's a lesbian, even though she's never identified as such, and probably has never been with another woman before this. (And for many, were the relationship to break up, would never be in another lesbian relationship again.) Her partner, on the other hand, has probably always really been a lesbian - just nobody knew it because their actual gender was hidden.

It can be just as big a shock going the other way. A lesbian identified woman may be shocked to discover that her butch lesbian partner is going to transition FtM. Suddenly, after a time, she's in a straight relationship, even though she may have never identified as straight. Indeed, she may still feel like a lesbian, and feel cut off from her friends and community, because she's no longer perceived as belonging in the community.

Genitals just aren't the deciding factor here. There are many other things about a person, gender, presentation, behavior, personality - all manner of things - that determine whether or not someone would be attracted to them. For example. I like men. I've always liked men. I just never thought I could be with one because I was attracted to straight men. I have nothing against gay guys. Many of them are very attractive, and many of them take better care of themselves than the average straight guy seems to do. And gay or straight - if they are cisgender, both have male genitalia. So you'd think I'd just be happy to be with either one, right? Nope. The gay guys I know just don't find me attractive - I'm a woman, and the feeling is mutual.

And in fact, for me anyway, the person is much more important than the stuff between their legs. My boyfriend is a transgender man. I am attracted to him because he is probably the straightest, most masculine man I've ever met. (He is also an amazing person in many ways that have nothing to do with gender.) He sees me as one of the most feminine women he's ever been with - and he's been with plenty. We are simply a straight couple in a straight relationship.

Anyway, a woman who's with a male identified CDer is still in a straight relationship. Of course part of what makes this so hard is that some of us are none too sure, at first, how we really identify...

[ReineD]

2. MOST GG's sexuality does NOT change just because their partner CD's or is TS. As discussed in point 1, if their partner is CD they generally are still attracted to the male bits just with a bit of unusual decoration. If their partner is TS then I suspect most GG's innate sexual drive does not alter ... I DO NOT think these GG's are female attracted, they don't suddenly find women generally physically attractive once their partner transitions.

This is a good point. We do have some GGs in this forum who are happily married post-transition, and it would be interesting to find out if they have discovered a latent attraction to natal women now that their SOs are transitioned. I don't think they would, but maybe they can jump in and tell us how they feel.

[Katie Russell]

Paula I never said that men dating Thai trans women were gay. In the programme their concern was that was how society would see them. I raised this in a thread before and was shot down in flames. I was told in no uncertain terms that two men who has the same parts and are intimate are homosexual. As I said what matters is how the person feels.

[Mink]

it's odd... because there are MANY women who I think would readily admit they find certain famous women or non-famous women hot... that whole "i'd go gay for ___" ... and maybe they would!

but then with liking a guy in male form maybe they just wouldn't want the female side...

that whole "if I wanted a woman i'd get an actual woman!" which is very odd... kinda rigid in a way...

how a (mostly) straight or bi woman could go for men AND women but not a man who is womanly!

BUT! how a lesbian who digs women can go for another female lesbian who is butch / very man-like!

or straight females and trans-men...


or what about a straight female with a very feminine-presenting trans-man who crossdresses and that turns her off?

(my head just exploded)

[Tina_gm]

it's odd... because there are MANY women who I think would readily admit they find certain famous women or non-famous women hot... that whole "i'd go gay for ___" ... and maybe they would!

but then with liking a guy in male form maybe they just wouldn't want the female side...

that whole "if I wanted a woman i'd get an actual woman!" which is very odd... kinda rigid in a way...

how a (mostly) straight or bi woman could go for men AND women but not a man who is womanly!

BUT! how a lesbian who digs women can go for another female lesbian who is butch / very man-like!

or straight females and trans-men...


or what about a straight female with a very feminine-presenting trans-man who crossdresses and that turns her off?

(my head just exploded)

Yeah, thinking about all of it can be like getting lost in a maze. I also think PaulaQ has a lot of good thoughts as well. Technically, or perhaps in pure genetics, one is a certain gender based on genitalia. But, what if the mind simply does not relate to that gender at all?

If a male who identifies internally as male is physically attracted to other males who present as males, that makes them gay (of course) But a male who is attracted to a CDer who is dressed but only attracted to their female presentation, and it is just a general attraction.... I don't know if that can qualify as being gay. Perhaps if they also were attracted to them specifically because they were MTF, then there is something there that can at least be identified as other than straight.

[DorothyElizabeth]

I don't have any earth-shattering revelations to add to this conversation, but, having read all the posts in the thread, I am struck by one thing that no one has mentioned yet. Genitalia notwithstanding, the most powerful erogenous zone in the human body is between the ears. So I would posit that our sexual orientation is based on how we perceive potential partners, and how we perceive ourselves. Now, I realize that throws a philosophical "monkey wrench" (adjustable spanner, for some of you) into the works, because it means sexuality cannot be defined purely by physical presence of certain organs.

I know it sounds trite, and the phrase is hackneyed, but perception really DOES become reality.