how to tell?

[julie marie1]

I am a 62 year old cross dresser and I have only in recent years begun to truly explore my feminine side.
Undoubtedly the internet has made it possible for me to explore feelings that in my earlier years would have been simply weird. I can not deny that I enjoy the feeling of "passing". However, except for my wife, no one has any idea of my secret hobby. It is, on the surface, inconsistent with the rest of my life. It makes me wonder, therefore, what other people I know might have a similar secret. How do we know?

[Adriana Moretti]

i guess we will never know who else does this, that you may personally know, unless they tell you....but with that in mind....i heard its like 1 out of 10 or something? My math may be a bit off I dunno I dont pay attention to such things....BUT I have sat in a packed yankee stadium before and wondered how many out of the 50 PLUS THOUSAND were cd's.......that number I would imagine is at least 2500 at LEAST! How many of those crotch grabbing , pinstripe wearing dudes would admit it is another story.....but as a New Yorker myself I know many gals that attend games,.....

[DanaR]

You don't know. Years ago, one of the Seattle girls was telling me a story of her coming out to members of her family. She had invited her brother over for dinner, and told him. His response was, it must run in the family. So here are two brothers (a couple of years apart in age), growing up in the same house didn't know that the other one was dressing up. I suppose we stay hidden for a reason; which is we don't want others to know.

[Kate Simmons]

Simply put, we don't know. Not everyone is open or overt about it as you yourself know. If someone chooses to share it, then they have to deal with the aftermath, positive or negative.

[Teresa]

Julie,
We don't know but remember the statistics of about 1:10 men have or will CD !
I look at it like this, if you were at a meeting or being confronted by a group of say 100 people, you will certainly not be the only one wearing clothes of the opposite sex !
Some members have found statistics of the percentage of men who now buy women's clothes for their own use !
I for one know at least one other guy knows I wear boots with 4" heel because he saw me trying them on ! Or a whole queue of people waiting at a check out know I wear stockings because that's all I had in my basket !
You only have to look around the shops to see this happening more than ever ! Weird has dropped out of my vocabulary, it doesn't associate with my Cding any more !

[charlenesomeone]

Not sure unless these others want it known. If you don't, many have been successful in
keeping it a secret. If you are outside, others will know, are you "ok" with that?
Enjoy

[Suzie Petersen]

That is an interesting thought Julie.

Some of us "older" girls remember a time when we thought we were the only boy in the world with this strange desire. Before the Internet, the only sources of information would be the library, naughty magazines and rare snippets in the newspaper. I don't think I read anything about it anywhere until I was maybe 14 or 15.

However, I did go to school with a guy who made me wonder if he was like me! The more I have thought about it over the years, the more convinced I am that we had something in common there.

We went to school together from 1st grade all the way through high-school. We were good friends for several years. Did not live close to each other so we didn't spend all that much time together. When we got older, we used to sail together as his parents had a nice 31' sailboat which he had free access to.

My suspicion that he might have been a CD is based on a very few situations from all those years. Things that made me go Hmmmm ...

First time was a party around age 15 or so. Maybe ... 25 of us there, I don't really remember, but a good group. Sometime late in the evening, one of the girls took off her clip-on earrings and put them on my friend. We were laughing at him and he had this sheepish smile on his face. Then she started applying makeup on him and they went on to swap clothes, all on her insistence. Now he was in a skirt and blouse, some makeup and the earrings. We all had long hair back then so he looked pretty girly.
Of course, I'm sitting there getting all jealous, wanting it to be me, but being much to scared about it to say anything. We were both some of the class tough guys, so I wasn't going to say anything.

What really made me think there was more to it than just some fun, was when the girl went on to put false eyelashes on him. I was watching him carefully and I saw the excitement build. He was visibly shaking, got very quiet and was staring at the mirror intensely. It took a while to get the lashes on because he kept blinking and what I saw in him, was the same excitement I felt myself when I secretly would do the same things at home! For some reason, the first times putting on eyelashes and mascara got me all shaky! I was now looking at another boy displaying the same reaction to something no boy should not get excited about!
After the dressing up session was completed, he stayed dressed like that several hours until the party ended late at night. I was pretty jealous!

The other time was more direct. We were on a school trip to a major city in a foreign country. Berlin / Germany as a matter of fact. Must have been 17 years old or so.
He and I were walking down a major shopping street with lots of fashion shops. As we walked by a bridal store, he stopped and looked at the display. I stopped too and we stood there for a moment. There were two mannequins in the center of the window, in wonderful white wedding dresses. Then he said: "You and I would look beautiful in those dresses, don't you think!".
I was totally surprised by the question and didn't have a good reply at the ready. I don't remember what I said, but it would have been something like "Yeah sure!".
And that was it! Nothing else was said and we turned and walked on.

I have often wondered about those two incidents, wondered if there was more to it. If we would have had something in common there and if that could have turned into having someone to share the secret with. Later, when things like email and internet came around, I wondered how in the world I could contact him and ask! It had been years since we last talked, we went separate ways after high-school and I have only seen him, or any of my old classmates for that matter, a few times since.
I could not come up with a way to ask, without exposing myself. Couldn't do that.

- Suzie

[Katey888]

No way of knowing Julie, unless we finally agree on either the secret handshake or wearing a special pin badge (yeah - I'm working on it... )

1 in 10..???

I just don't believe it - people spout these statistics with no factual basis, no references, and we so badly WANT and NEED to believe that we're more numerous than we probably are... And if we're not... well, we just better get on with it as best we can as individuals.

Think about it... This site addresses the entire English speaking world - round figures.. half a billion people..??

We have less than 30,000 members of whom only some 5,000 are active and of which a much smaller fraction actually participate in discussions... it's too small a figure for something that affected even 1% of the population...

How many folk attend the large conferences in the USA? A few hundred at most... this would be more even if you had 1.5 million MtF CDs in the USA (1%)

Same story in the UK... We may not be very rare, but I don't believe the 1 in 10 or even 1 in 20...

If you wanted to know, you could try just asking folk...?

Katey x

[Teresa]

Katey,
The figures can't be accurate but some think it's the tip of the iceberg to ones deep in the closet ! As you know it's the brave few that get out to conferences or groups ! As for asking folk I tried in my local High Street and felt like the pied piper they all wanted to follow ! Sorry I couldn't help the leg pull !!

[Beverley Sims]

Looking at the groups active in US and UK I can only surmise half a percent.

I do not worry about putting figures on it just go and meet people at a venue advertised.

[Suzie Petersen]

Katey: Who knows what the number really is, but one thing I find very interesting, is how little people in a group like this one, know about other groups. I used to belong to a chatroom, based out of the UK. Sarah West's room if that means anything to anyone. There where thousands of members there.
When I visited with others at some of the conferences you mention, most had never heard of it!

Looking around the room here, and having read a lot of the older messages, I dont recognize a single person.

I was a member of the group "The Vanity Girls". Haven't seen anyone from there on this forum.

I have talked to people all over who had never heard of Southern Comfort Conference (SCC), supposedly the worlds largest TG convention. Used to be in Atlanta but has now moved to Florida and it has been going on for years.

I have been out in The Village in Manchester many times, met many many TG/CD girls there and only very few knew of any of the other venues or groups I was aware of. In return, they had long lists of places and people I had never heard of.
Been to Vicky Lee's place, the Wayout Club, in London a number of times, same thing there.

So I do think you are right, the 1 in 10 or even 1 in 20 may not be right, but depending on who you include, the number could be pretty substantial.

- Suzie

[Pat]

1 in 10..???

The most popular statistic I've read on transgender people in the US is 1-in-333. I'll even provide a reference:

http://web.hku.hk/~sjwinter/Transgen...-are-there.htm

MtF crossdressers are only a part of that number. In the paper cited, they have some high numbers and some low numbers and mention variability by country, but I'm thinking (personally) that the variability isn't within the trans population but within the how much the culture supports or suppresses transgender expression. In other words, I think some places have higher incidences of people in the closet or even people who have never had exposure to information that let's them say, "Hey! That's me!"

[Sarah Doepner]

I have no idea how many crossdressers there are in the general population, nor how many men I know who may be crossdressing and hiding it as well as I did (and continue to do) for so many years. But once I joined a support group and began to meet others face to face it didn't matter any longer. One real human encounter is worth a world full of guesses and statistics. We are out there and we are real people, I recommend you try to find us and leave the guessing to the pollsters.

[audreyinalbany]

the statistic I've always heard is more like 2%, or 2 out of 100. I find that kind of believable. But….the question was about how would we know if an acquaintance was a 'dresser.' I have no idea. But, I do have a friend of mine who knows about me tell me one time that he thought it was 'kind of cool,' and he said probably most guys have thought about it.

[pamela7]

the trouble with people who are good at keeping secrets, is that they are good at keeping secrets.
those of us who want to be found out, will be.

I reckon a fair old % of cross-dressers ought to be working as secret agents!

[Victoria Demeanor]

You know gals, that not long ago I thought I was alone in these feelings. well maybe I did realize that there were others, but not wanting to admit it to myself the thought of others out there was the furthest thing from my mind. Oddly circumstances in my life should have brought me more in touch with people of similar mind sets, but really never having meet anyone else and of course growing up in a non internet age I would have said yes very low percentage. As I started to explore I have found many communities that do not intertwine.
my first was a gal on Craigs list....yes please no lectures.... She/he was married and through emails seemed to have similar interests. I know I had told her several times that this was emotional and had no interest in a sexual encounter. when I did meet her she showed me several groups and chat sites that she used ....which was my first indication that I was in the wrong place. the touchy feeling thing caused me to flee and rethink everything, but my point here is it was a whole different group or groups.
The Vanity Girls, I remember looking at this group and until Suzie mentioned it I haven't heard it brought up here. There are a couple of other groups that I looked at with several members that don't seem to be around here on this site.
Personally I chose this site because it is a very eclectic group and everyone seems respectful and friendly to each other, but I've gone round and about now and have probably lost your attention.
So I guess my point is I am willing to bet that the percent is higher then we really know. I think that many guys do this to some extent and will never admit it. How many times in the past did I under dress and went out with the mind set that no body would know and no one else did this.
So I have found recently that I do wonder more, when I see a guy walking kind of slow past the women's department or standing kind of funny in line like a garter strap has come loose or crosses his legs and then quickly readjusts to a more manly position, is he one of us?
In any case Yes Katy you really need to figure out that secret handshake. we are all waiting.
Okay side note: J. Edger Hover cross dresser or myth?

[sometimes_miss]

We can't know, unless someone tells us. This isn't some sort of hobby like amateur radio can be; it's something that will drastically alter how the rest of society sees you after they find out. So, very few tell anyone else about it. I'd be willing to gamble that most are closeted, to the point that a good number don't even know anyone else who crossdresses (at least in real life; I don't, my only TG contacts are all here). The percentage of the general population that crossdresses will forever be unknown, it's all just a guess. As of the early to mid 1990's, the most random studies surmised that it was around 2 to 2.5 percent. Others work on correlation percentages which are always very questionable, such as a therapist who has 300 patients, of which 15 crossdress, so he decides that means 5% of the total population. Which would be wrong, because he's only evaluating 300 people who are willing to go to a therapist. He has no idea of what percentage of THAT population is of the general public, either. So his estimate is likely to mean nothing at all. Whenever I read inflated figures, I figure it's just someone's wish that there were many more well, 'participants' so as to justify his own behavior to himself as being way more common than it really is.

J. Edgar Hoover. Well, probably not. Considering his job, if there were any way to blackmail him, someone would have done it, and there was never any evidence that ever happened. His enemies eyes were everywhere; you can't hide everything if someone's seriously looking for it.

[Suzie Petersen]

I love statistics!

Just went out in the woods behind my house. Didn't see a single Squirrel! So I think we can all agree that Squirrels do not live in forests!

- Suzie

[Pat]

Okay side note: J. Edger Hover cross dresser or myth?

Myth. J. Edgar Hoover was a public relations stunt cooked up by the FBI because they didn't want the world to know that they were the first Federal agency headed by a woman, Agatha G. Shue. They hired the actor you see in newsreels of the time and set up the whole story about him running the Bureau. Occasionally someone would catch a glimpse of Ms. Shue in the director's office and speculation lead to rumor, rumor lead to enduring silly myth. I'm sure the details are on Wikipedia somewhere...

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Julie,
Anyone that is doing this in hiding for their entire life, has become a professional.
You can guess, and have suspicions, but until you ask and that person will
actually admit to CDing, you'll never be sure.
As far as the percentage thing, I've never read anything on this (it just hasn't mattered).
I don't know how they get these numbers? What are the criteria? If a guy dresses as a girl for Halloween
one time, is he in the " yeah I crossdressed" category? If my sister put me in her dress when I was a kid, do I qualify?
Polls and survey results are so variable depending on things like this.
For me just knowing that there are people that have the same exact feelings as me is enough.
Are exact numbers important?
Much Love,
Kristyn

[Lorileah]

why don't you see Vanity Girls (actually Vanity Club)here? Because they are a very closed group

We are a special and exclusive sorority whose members are all accomplished & exceptional Transwomen, each and every one being voted in by her fellow sisters.

. They wouldn't accept me and they haven't updated their pages in 5 years so I don't think they are even active anymore.

Now you also have to figure the various sub-groups of TG and it ebbs and flows with age and desires. I think a lot of the online groups are younger sexually adventurous people who are "exploring" and they either go on or fade away (as we know until they get older) so numbers would be impossible without strict parameters (Do you count if you EVER tried on something. Do you count those who did it as teens only? Do you count fetishists, underdressers only or do you have to have dressed fully?) I have seen statistics on many groups. 10% of the world is gay? You would think they would not have had to fight so hard for recognition? But, 30% of the world is Bi...so do we count them as gay when they are in a same sex relationship? When something can be hidden it is hard to get even CLOSE numbers. I say 1-12 because I have 1200 friends and I know 100 who dress. But I may be skewed a bit. My dad has 1200 friends and I am the ONLY transperson he has ever known. So maybe 1-1200 is closer? Wait. I have 12 friends who are undergoing transition so 88 out of 1200...because after transition they would be men or women and may not think themselves TG...


Define your requirements then you can get a better idea.

[Jennifer8]

guess it depends what you call a CD?

The def of cross dress from merriam-webster.com says
: the act or practice of wearing clothes made for the opposite sex
So any guy who puts on any girls clothes for whatever reason even once could be called a CD then right?
SO ya something like 10% could deff be right, heck it can even be a lot higher right?

Buutttttttt, lol some guy pulling on his girlfriends or girl friends or sisters or wives clothes just because or for like halloween or a joke is deff not the same as people on here.
I mean you guys go wayyyyyyyy past that and thats way diff. so like the number of you that go like all out has to be way lower.

Its weird that most everybody thinks guys when you say CD because girls do it but we dont do it to sorta look like guys we do it cause well sometimes guy clothes are comfy! just cause I like to wear a xxl its like huge on me lol sweatshirt when its cold I dont think thats really crossdressing even thou you could say it is cause its "a guy" sweatshirt lol. Stacy kept a bunch of the boy clothes i had when i moved out ..... they are HERS now lol its not like i care its just funny how like she gets upset if i wear them saying they are hers and im like they were mine first lol.
we really dont have a hers n mine thing most of our stuff is just all together and we both wear it but she has some stuff that is hers n I have some stuff that is mine and we share the rest. Bein the same size is great and saves us or err her money lol.

*****OH Im not trying to say you all are guys btw i say you guys to everybody. I say you guys to my mom n Stacy.

Oh also being younger people more my age are just way more open and dont care like guys who wear girls skinny jeans and stuff like that no one says oh your dressing like a girl.

[Suzie Petersen]

Lorileh: My point about the Vanity Club girls was that I know many of them yet haven't seen any of them here. Point being, there are likely many groups out there, existing without knowing of each other.

[julie marie1]

Not that it matters, but I happen to be a mathematician (which , of course, makes me crazy). I teach statistics to college students nearly every semester. i am well familiar with the saying that there are liars, damn liars, and statisticians. What this means, is statistics, when taken out of context, can prove just about anything. To say that 1 out of every ten men are CD's may, or may not, be true. But that does not mean, for example that 1 out of 10 men that attend a Yankees game are CD's. It is possible that no Yankees fans are CD's, and the CD's are somewhere else. What I would l to know, and this is not merely a whimsical question, is there any way of discerning that those we meet are CD's? I would like to know that I am not all alone in the world (Thoroughly Modern Millie). This is not merely about clothes, or makeup, but something deeper.
Any in sight would be appreciated.
Julie Marie