Gender Stereotypes and learned fear

[Greenie]

Almost two years ago, while very uneducated and very unaware i posted a thread about gender roles and stereotyping.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...nd-femininity/

I think that i have grown as a person since then and look back on the way I worded the questions and I think I got a lot of good answers. I used to post quite frequently, took a break and now here I am again.

I have been thinking about some stuff lately. I have been primarily a lurker for the last couple months, but I have been watching and often find little to put my 2c in on the main forum. I have noticed ocassionaly a thread or two with some comments that are so blatantly sexist that I have chimed in. Mostly the amazing CDers who I met here two years ago when I joined, are also the ones to chime in and make some comments. here are some questions that have come to my mind over the last couple weeks. Sort of related. Sort of not. All spurred by conversations witnessed on the forum.

Here are my questions two years later:

1. Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

2. Cross Dressers often get put in situations that GG's have been in their entire lives ( concern for safety, being out at night, feeling like something bad is going to happen to you because the way you dressed) Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?

3. Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?


Luca has discovered a new label he likes for himself besides CDer: we are looking into use "gender non conforming". We had a conversation about Luca putting himself in dangerous situations because he did not know any better. While I have ALWAYS walked to my car with my keys between my fingers, I have NEVER left a drink unattended, I ALWAYS bring a buddy EVERYWHERE. These are things that luca has never learned are a necessity. he was raised as a boy with the traditional male stereotypes hammered into his brain. SO he does not think about the danger and has gone out and done all these nonos!

OKAY. GO.

[kimdl93]

Let me first acknowledge that the members here are, like society as a whole, representative of the cross section of society, and to the same degrees enlighten or not so much so on many issues. I find that some hold incredibly romanticized, idealized and often archaic views of 'women'

To your questions:

1. I don't think my respect for women has changed exclusively from decades of CDing. Certainly, I've gained a first. Hand appreciation of the unfairness of the sexualized notion of women and the potential toll of unrealistic body image and being judged solely by appearance. I also feel that being a coworker, subordinate and and supervisor with/of women, a mature adult, a marriage partner and parent, have also informed my perspectives on women.

2.very much so. If I do go out at night, I am always conscious of the risks, possible threats and strategies for avoiding dangerous situations. No one likes feeling vulnerable.

3. I feel that as an openly transgendered person (mostly) I'm helping in some small way to diminish gender stereotypes. I do attempt to present as a woman....as I conceive a woman of my age and stature would want to be seen, but I also recognize that some may view me as at best a poor caricature of femininity.

[StephanieinSecret]

To answer in order:
1. I hope so, but I'll never know for sure. One of my fears is that my dressing will alienate me from other people.

2. No, not really. I don't go out, so fear of, say, being out at night isn't an issue. It does throw a new light on how the way we present ourselves can effect our reception in public, though. All the studying of fashion, movement, and body language that CD'ers do is a lesson in behavioral anthropology if you choose to see it that way.

3. One of many, MANY reasons that I don't go out is because I think CD'ers are a punch line to most people in the best case scenario. Getting laughed at doesn't make me feel good or give our community a good name.. And I'm not snappy with comebacks! That said, it reveals some inherent misogyny in our society: Women can take on masculine clothing and affectations because they show strength, wheras a man dressing as or emulating a woman is a joke or a weakling...why? Because feminity is associated with weakness and a lack of dominance. Sometimes I'm unsure if that's misogyny or simply reproductive biology at work, though.

[docrobbysherry]

1. No. I don't respect people I don't know. It doesn't matter if you're male, female, somewhere in between, or a duck! U have to EARN my respect.

2. Absolutely! I learned a new kind of fear when dressed. And, vulnerability like never before! Also I have learned that being/presenting female GENERALLY requires more patience, acceptance, and open mindedness than being/presenting male.

3. NA. Almost no one dresses the way I do. I think someone has to be reminded of GG women by a dresser to effect a stereotype. I don't believe I do.

[justmetoo]

I think I've always had respect for some women (from my grandmothers to my mother to my sisters and to many other women I have known over the years), but crossdressing and especially going out in public has opened my eyes to the kinds of dangers and harassment and unwanted attention women can often be subject to and that most men don't have to face. Also, after opening up to some of the women in my life about my crossdressing they have also opened up to me about aspects of their lives that they don't often talk about with most men (from things like sexual assault to being pressured to be nice to being put down or belittled in various ways). I hope I don't perpetuate gender stereotypes! But I probably do to some extent. It's hard to overcome decades of societal programming and I'm sure I don't even see all of the ways I might adhere to gender stereotypes without even knowing it. I hope I do my best though.

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Hi Greenie

1. As a CD I've had a feminine "inner being" forever and have gotten along well with women. I've always respected them, though my time in the macho military was challenging. I had to hide my true self and would engage in crude comments (never to women directly but about them when I was with the guys). I would cringe internally, however, thinking "if you only knew." From a practical standpoint, now that I am striving to look more like a woman from time to time, I greatly respect the amount of time and effort it takes to get ready and look good. And I haven't even started with makeup yet! And as ridiculous as this sounds, I'm beginning to get a glimpse of the pressure many women probably feel to look beautiful, and how they are judged on appearance. This forum has stirred in me feelings of envy or jealously, when I see the pretty, young, thin CDs who can wear a size 6 and apply makeup perfectly. I never felt that toward another guy. Well, maybe "car envy", but that's a possession, not one's own appearance. I think I'm beginning to understand how women could develop some serious esteem issues. Does that make any sense to you?

2. Yes, I think so. I've been contemplating this a great deal lately. I really want to lose weight--maybe I'll never fit into a size 6, but a 12 would be nice--and then it dawns on me that if I weighed 50 or 60 lbs less, I would also lose a lot of muscle, and would obviously be a lot less physically imposing. I would need to think twice about personal physical security. I'm torn about that, though part of me rationalizes that it is anyway inevitable as I get older.

3. I would definitely perpetuate some clothing stereotypes if I ever improved my femme presentation to go out in public. Hose, heels, dresses and skirts for me, definitely. My whole goal with CD is not to be gender neutral; I want to dress and look like Kate Hudson or Blake Lively.

Like Luca, I never thought about the things you mention in your last paragraph for myself, though I would always advise my girlfriends about them, and now my wife. I know there are creeps out there. It will be interesting to see how I deal with things if I ever do progress.

Though provoking post.

Shibumi

[NicoleScott]

Good questions.
1) No. I have respect for women. I am a pleasure dresser. Once my dressup session ends, it's back to a normal male life, husband, father, handyman, sports fan, etc. There is no connection between my CDing and my respect for women.
2) No. I have always recognized the dangers and need for caution for both women (and girls) and CDers.
3) Leading question. There are different genders and the differences aren't just stereotypes, so I'm not a fan of gender neutral. But there's a lot to learn out there. For example, many people think gender is just a nicer word for sex. Recognizing and accepting people's differences in how they identify and express gender is preferable to pretending there are no gender differences. Like doing away with Mr. Mrs. Miss and using M. instead. Or doing away with different cap and gown colors because a few have identity issues. Both examples in the news lately.

[Suzie Petersen]

Hi Greenie,

Thanks for the questions, they are good ones!

My replies:

1) No. However, I have been transgender since I was very young and probably before, or at least at the same time, I became aware of girls. So my perception of women has always been as equals.
I will say that the older I get, the less I think of either gender! People generally suck! <LOL>

2) Yes I do believe I have a better understanding of womens safety concerns. Having been in the situations where I did not feel safe or where I knew my safety was dependent on chance or the good behavior of others around me, has certainly made me more aware of what women face every day.

3) I am not sure. I hope I am pushing those around me in the right direction, but there is a counterproductive function of me protecting my "secret" which sometimes might make me root for the boy team instead of standing up for women and for my gender non-conforming nature! I would never actively speak or act against womens rights, but I know I have at times avoided getting involved out of concern of being "outed" by my actions. Hope that makes sense!

- Suzie

[Greenie]

Interesting answers. The last question is kind of leading. But I presume different answers from different thinkers. If that makes sense. I think there are cder that further perpetuate stereotypes often on this site, and others that are aware and actively reject stereotypes of women. I guess I ask this because I am wondering if people have knowledge of this trend in our own cd.Com community and where each person thinks they fall. it's meant to turn the questions around and get each person to think about where on that they might fit. My personal opinion is that there are many here who fit either side. But often I think it's the difference between newer cder and those who have been at it or on here for a while. That is my perception of the posts I have read. More tenured cder seem to just like what they like regardless of stereotype, where often newer cds perpetuate the sterotype and "only" like stereotypically female things. One of my favorite disussion is the male vs female razors. Which is strange to me, companies make the same product blue or pink and sell as male and female to double profit. As a society we become slaves to the gender bias machine. women as well as cders often seem to buy into this "women's versus mens" products, when scientifically they are often the same product in different colors. But the need to have the more feminine product always amazes me. the Lego company was cited as increasing their profits by 300% the year they started selling "girls legos" when in actuality they are the same base product.

[AngelaYVR]

1. No
2. Maybe, but having a daughter does it more
3. ??? I dress as I like, do real women not wear skirts and dresses for fear of being accused of setting back 'the cause'?

[ReineD]

I went to the older post you linked to in the OP. You were asking if CDers promoted the gender divide by portraying women in a stereotypical sexual manner, based on photographs you had seen on facebook. I too have seen many such photos, as does the general public, and I think this is why most (or many?) people not involved in this community believe that CDers do dress for fetish or sexual reasons.

But I believe that CDers generally seek to emulate that which they find beautiful and sexy, without even thinking about whether they are portraying the sexist stereotypes. Men are naturally hardwired to look at and admire beautiful and sexy women ... how many of them do NOT turn their heads when they see a provocatively dressed woman sashaying down the street. Their aim is to become what they find beautiful, it's a visual thing, and there is nothing more beautiful and that suits every taste than the variety of women who look like this: (see google image search for "classy women" and scroll down a bit).

There's a huge industry that uses these images to sell all manner of things to men from cars, boats, sports, expensive watches and it is done because it works. I don't know if most CDers , or even non-CDers, realize that most women don't dress and look like that in their day-to-day lives, I think they just are very pleased with the way that women are marketed because it appeals to their hard-wiring.

I think there are cder that further perpetuate stereotypes often on this site, and others that are aware and actively reject stereotypes of women.

My personal opinion is that there are many here who fit either side. But often I think it's the difference between newer cder and those who have been at it or on here for a while.

I agree with you on both counts, and I think that the degree to which a CDer might present as a "hot babe" has to do with several factors:

1. His age … I think it's safe to say that generally libido starts to wane around middle age and this might be when the style of dress might also tone down.
2. Whether he goes out in public … there's no need to tone down at home or for pics intended for other CDers, no matter what age. My own SO will only wear the short, tight dresses to her TG support group where there is no reason not to.
3. How much he wants to not be stared at in public if he goes out … I think that CDers who go out do learn to tone it down if they want to blend in.

Keeping in mind, that men have different opinions on what is considered attractive, sexy, or hot, based on their backgrounds and the decades of their youth: anything from long, flowery, gauzy dresses to fuzzy and cuddly sweaters, to period-type costumes, to tight jeans, to short skirts, to sweater dresses, to classic office wear, and everything in between.

But I do agree that there tends to be more dresses, skirts and hose here than among women. I always took it this is because many CDers think that their legs are one of their best natural features.

One of my favorite disussion is the male vs female razors. Which is strange to me, companies make the same product blue or pink and sell as male and female to double profit.

I agree with you there too. I will buy the one on sale, no matter the color or the brand. But, I think that a lot of CDers get a special kick out of using traditional feminine products, like pink bath towels, women's shampoo, razors, etc, even down to which "girly" drink to order at a bar. CDing is so much more than the clothes, it's the whole idea of crossing the line of what is socially acceptable for men, and products marketed to women help to achieve this.

[Dana44]

Wow, one of my problems as a male was too much respect for women. Got my bell rung a couple times. I think that CD'ing is truly a way for us to identity with our feminine side. Respect, is something learned. I found that I now judge a woman on their own personalities and interactions. I would not do a girly drink at a bar. Also, I buy the products for women, yet on a razor, I did by one and it has broken. The male razors seem to be more stout. On going out, you are making the best statement that one can and that is to pass as a woman. My first time out, I think that I did not pass... Wild hair, tried to flat iron it. I have thick hair and it had a lot of volume. I probably looked like a wild six foot four female. I was dressed for my age. That is the only thing that might have saved me. LOL, I did not get that many looks. They probably thought it was some old kook. I feel that most here in Texas, kindly looks away. We have to buy a lot of female products on the fact that they do not make them for males. Yet I'm getting used to things like perfume. I wonder if they have one in musk, LOL

[Greenie]

Stevie: that is a wonderful goal. If I have a feminine son or a masculine daughter, I want them to live in a world where there are no stereotypes that identify them as "fag or dyke". I just know it won't be that way by the time I have kids.

Also thank you everyone who is actually participating in the conversation. Right or wrong we are all hear to learn from one another. I ask for your opinions because they are different from mine, which is so Fricken Awesome. Please ignore any negativity in the thread that has strayed from the main purpose of discussion. And let's keep pushing each others brains to chew on things in a new way we might not have thought a out before.

♡

[Greenie]

Angela, it doesn't have to do with wearing skirts, but the attitude towards "feminine" in general. Not the action of wearing skirts, but refusing to wear pants. Women don't refuse to wear jeans because they are not feminine enough. Or refuse to wear flats. I have seen many a thread on this forum about people thinking their wives weren't feminine enough because they "wore pants". I am talking of this level of extemism. I think you might have missed my point, Did you read the last post before you responded? That might clear it up a bit. No need to get offended! Intelligent discussions are encouraged!!!

[bridget thronton]

1. Yes - i see the tough lot girls face growing up and the lack of respect given to women in many workplaces
2. Yes - i appreciate women's safety concerns better
3. I am not trying to perpetuate any stereotypes (I do not judge anyone's femininity) I just try to be myself

[Michelle789]

On the other hand, it's women who insist that I continue the macho masculine role because they cannot accept, and are not attracted to, a feminine male.

Men and women are both responsible for perpetuating male masculinity and machismo. Most men are afraid of losing their masculinity or expressing feminine, and are afraid of being around any man who expressing any behaviors or expressions of the feminine.

Why do you think that pushing society to a more gender neutral direction would be a good thing at all. Sure, overly rigid roles for women (and men) have been a problem....
I'd invite people who disagree with me, and view me as a sell-out, a prostitute, or even as a grotesque parody of womanhood to please PM me, and I'd be more than happy to discuss this. (I've heard all of those comparisons, btw.)

Very well said Paula. I agree with your sentiments exactly.

Btw, I have had a number of people within the trans community criticize me for my stereotypical feminine way of dressing. I have been told things like "Are you going to wear 'normal' clothes to the meeting next time?" and that I dress "age inappropriately" and that I need new clothes. All from within the trans community. This came from people who feel that I am some kind of sellout by reinforcing feminine stereotypes. I simply enjoy dressing in a stereotypically feminine manner, and this reflects the feminine woman that I am. I am not trying to force other women, trans or cis, to dress as I do.

When I first started publicly presenting last year, I had wrestled with the issue on how I should dress. I was into the whole debate on "dress to blend" vs "dress feminine" vs "be yourself". I knew I wanted to dress as my authentic self, which is a feminine woman who wears skirts, dresses, long hair, and makeup. Yet I had read on this forum, along with articles I had read before I joined the forum, and I had also heard from within the local trans community, that I should dress to blend in, which means mainly jeans, t-shirts, flip flops, sneakers. While I don't dress like a hooker, no 6 inch heels or skirts that are too short, I do dress in a very stereotypically feminine manner. I had to apologize to myself for the longest time that I was commiting the most mortal sin of being a TS, dressing too femininely and that people would take me for a crossdresser (if even that since many CDers choose to wear casual clothing). It took lots of therapy and publicly presenting to get over myself and to realize that it's okay to be a transwoman and to be able to express my femininity in a way that reflects who I really am, and in a way that makes me happy. That I am not a "man in a dress" and I am not a crossdresser.

I agree that forcing everyone to dress in a gender neutral way is simply forcing us from one box into another. No one belongs in boxes. Everyone should be free to express themselves as they wish.

[AngelaYVR]

Angela, it doesn't have to do with wearing skirts, but the attitude towards "feminine" in general. Not the action of wearing skirts, but refusing to wear pants. Women don't refuse to wear jeans because they are not feminine enough. Or refuse to wear flats.

Guilty as charged but not because there are not feminine jeans but simply because they make a huge proportion of what modern women wear. I love to see skirts, dresses and heels so that is what I wear - no stereotyping involved.

I think you might have missed my point, Did you read the last post before you responded? That might clear it up a bit. No need to get offended! Intelligent discussions are encouraged!!!

I read what you wrote but, with all due respect, the intent seemed muddled. I was also not offended, it would take much more than that, I was merely perplexed. Now that you have clarified your original question (in a slightly insulting way with many exclamation marks) I can only suggest that you consider the reasons for choosing certain styles are irrelevant, we do this to make ourselves happy.

[Greenie]

Paula: I don't want to be "gender neutral to the extreme" however I do think a shift to a more gender neutral world would be politically better. As long as in other countries men still feel like they own women, and even in the US where women make substantially less than men. There is an idea that women are worth less than men that consistently follows our society. I say that people can wear whatever they want, But often times there is still an archaic view of women on this forum. Which amazes me. Its sickening to think that there are people on here who during the day want their wives to follow all the gneder stereotypes and will criticize or critique their femininity. Obviously you do not fit into that mold.

Nicole: I think fundamentally you and I probably have a different view in politics and world views where you might not understand the Razor/ Lego dilemma. And thats cool. I love you regardless of if you and I see eye to eye on this. Where I am coming from is that I don't like living in a world where my kids will have different opportunities, be treated differently, be forced to play with different toys in school or be teased. The razors and legos to me show that the world has not progressed pass gender stereotyping, and that commercialism feeds into that. I don't like that instead of being a more socially minded society, we are profit based. I understand that is the nature of the beast, and of capitalism. But if I have a child who ends up being a CD, I don't want to mess with their brains for the first half of their life shoving MALE IDENTITY down their throat in every day items. But it seems no matter what as a parent I will need to chose items that are pink or blue, princess or army. There is not a bunch of the between.

And lastly:

Angela: You cannot gather intent from text! Remember our own biases that go into reading text. you say insulting which is what I was trying to avoid. On a board of 200,000 plus members, I cannot avoid insulting everyone. So alas, I try and fail with at least one thats why the exclamations. *Shrug* While you view as insulting, someone else who knows me might see it as me trying to explain. I am not here to attack anyone or be attacked back. So please do not respond in an attacking accusatory manner again, however muddled, the point of this community it to have conversations. If you don't like what I am asking, then don't participate, if you think I am rude, its very easy to block me as a member and not see anything I post. Pointing out how "muddled" my thought is won't change anything, because my intent on asking the questions will metamorphosis as the tread continues. I.e. Muddle. Participate

I do not see the need to choose a skirt irrelevant. You are assuming you know me, my history, and my personality. I see new CDers in the pink fog who come on here and have a bias about what "real women should be like" Cders who think they are "more femine and better than "real" GGs" As a "real" gg, its insulting to females as a whole the points that are often made on this forum. And I mean often.

If you could look at the intent which is a GG starting an intelligent conversation with her cd friends you would understand. Not every GG is trying to to kick people down, or control your clothing choices. I said these questions all came from conversations I saw on the board in the last couple weeks. So they all got started with stuff I saw cder's post. SO if that CDer is NOT you, good for you. But I have seen these posts, and seen these conversations MANY MANY times in the last 2 years since joining the board. You might be better than that then. If you don't stereotype, good for you. if you don't reject women wearing pants because its not feminine enough, then you are not the type of person I was talking about. I said some CDers (knowledge I have through experience!) . I didn't generalize, and recognized that there were different sides of camp on this issue. If you took offense to think I was talking about you in particular, or CDers like you, there must be a reason that you thought that.

This is the last time I will try to explain. I have plenty of people here who love me, know me, and understand that I am inquisitive GG who likes to ask thought provoking questions. A couple people not liking me and trying to start forum fights is not my biggest concern.

[Lorileah]

Answering from the rearview mirror of when I was a CD (yeah, hard to believe huh?)

1. Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

I have to say "no". That respect hit hard and fast early on. I learned quickly about the drop in status and the way men assume things about women. It hasn't grown as far as respect. I had that very quickly (yes it opened my eyes though)

2. Cross Dressers often get put in situations that GG's have been in their entire lives ( concern for safety, being out at night, feeling like something bad is going to happen to you because the way you dressed) Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?

Yes it did. But that understanding came more from being out in public. I wonder if the CDs who don't go out get that

3. Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

I am taking the 5th on that one as I think I have made that point on several occasions. But that perspective IS from a female point of view. Oh yeah, I used to dress the way I wanted GGs to dress...

[PaulaQ]

think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

Why do you think that pushing society to a more gender neutral direction would be a good thing at all. Sure, overly rigid roles for women (and men) have been a problem. But I don't think that "androgynous" presentations are all that. In my own case, I am very, very certain that if men and women in society wore the exact same garments, hairstyles, etc. I'd have blown my brains out many months before the slow process that is HRT changed my face and body enough to make me not want to die everytime I looked in a mirror.

I present in a stereotypically feminine manner because I'm just that type of woman, and my need to be who I am feels like an irresistible physical need, like the need for air. I'm not saying that every woman needs to be this way - I think people need freedom to be who they really are, without judgement. But I think it's ridiculous to replace one overly rigid social template with another overly rigid social template.

There is nothing wrong with a highly traditionally feminine presentation, provided it's not the cruel one size fits all uniform for every woman.

I'd invite people who disagree with me, and view me as a sell-out, a prostitute, or even as a grotesque parody of womanhood to please PM me, and I'd be more than happy to discuss this. (I've heard all of those comparisons, btw.)

[Tina_gm]

I present in a stereotypically feminine manner because I'm just that type of woman, and my need to be who I am feels like an irresistible physical need, like the need for air. I'm not saying that every woman needs to be this way - I think people need freedom to be who they really are, without judgement. But I think it's ridiculous to replace one overly rigid social template with another overly rigid social template.

There is nothing wrong with a highly traditionally feminine presentation, provided it's not the cruel one size fits all uniform for every woman.

Even if the physical presentation of men and women were to be exactly the same, we all wore the same clothes, makeup or lack thereof, I believe that a persons individual masculinity or femininity will still find a way out. We might look exactly the same, but we won't act the same, and we would migrate to certain types of professions and hobbies.

[pamela7]

1. respect was never an issue for me, in fact I've generally looked up to them more than men. What I do, is feel more understanding of women's situation from the clothing - the need for care moving, attention to detail, heightened awareness of situations, the vulnerability of less solid footwear and clothing, the prey feeling experienced under the eyes of some men, the dominance issues of some men come out.

2. maybe the fear is accentuated due to cross-dresser hate, I'm inclined to be the man-in-a-dress, which I feel appears less vulnerable but is more challenging to society. Being out in cities alone at night, I've felt just as heightened an awareness, just as likely to be mugged, what has changed is that I am more open to feeling the fear of others. As I never understood the males who would attack others anyway I am as perplexed as ever.

3. I believe that my man-in-a-dress approach, and my mixed-clothing likes are at the face of breaking down clothing stereotypes - yesterday i cleaned out some plumbing mostly en-femme; my work was tidier and more careful.

thank you for the questions Greenie.

[Greenie]

Somewhere along the lines, my idea of SOCIALLY gender nuetrul got turned into forcing everyone into the same clothes!!!

That not what I meant! Lol. What I mean is that pushing feminine and masculine to the extreme and saying that women are ONLY feminine if they wear skirts is wrong. I would think that the best wouldn't be a militant everyone in grey suits, But everyone accpting of each other and what they where,. Neutral where skirts done equate to femininity by default and pants don't equate to masculinity. Where people are just people regardless of what they wear.

I think that would be utopia. Luca wearing a skirt in public, without trying to pass and no one gives a damn. Sounds Nice to me.

But remember this comes form the perspective of a GG who has never been in a CDers shoes.

[PaulaQ]

Somewhere along the lines, my idea of SOCIALLY gender nuetrul got turned into forcing everyone into the same clothes!!!

That not what I meant! Lol. What I mean is that pushing feminine and masculine to the extreme and saying that women are ONLY feminine if they wear skirts is wrong. ... Neutral where skirts done equate to femininity by default and pants don't equate to masculinity. Where people are just people regardless of what they wear.

I saw no way to interpret your statement about stereotypical feminine presentation as meaning anything but the rather hyper femme way some of us present as being a throwback to the bad old days of repression of women. If this isn't what you meant, then I apologize, but it is a very, very, very commonly expressed sentiment here and in many other places.

A lot of us who are trans take a lot of crap for being "too feminine." I had a therapist (straight cis woman), observe to me recently that she saw all these other cis women who kept themselves rather meticulously feminine as little better than prostitutes because they looked the way they did to get and keep their wealthy husbands. It told me a lot about where I stood, in her opinion.

Clothing says something about you. There is a language associated with it, and often concepts about our identity are conveyed through it. I think stripping gender from it is exactly the WRONG thing to do. It is like stripping the meaning from words, so that nobody is offended because no one really knows what you mean, since nothing has a meaning in the first place.

I think it would be far better for Luca to be able to wear a skirt not because it's become this gender neutral garment, along with most others that don't directly interface to our anatomy, but rather because she is trying to express a fundamental truth about her identity, that she is male, but with a feminine side. In other words, she should be able to be authentically who she is, without judgement, not because clothes don't matter, but rather because our society accepts people as they truly are.

[Lorileah]

Somewhere along the lines, my idea of SOCIALLY gender nuetrul got turned into forcing everyone into the same clothes!!!

yeah...but threads do that a lot here. Not that I have ever done it myself

I saw no way to interpret your statement about stereotypical feminine presentation as meaning anything but the rather hyper femme way some of us present as being a throwback to the bad old days of repression of women.

I think people in "our" situation do tend to see that type of question in that manner Paula. We have had to "live" through being in the public eye and we get hit from all sides. The CD's don't usually say anything to me about how I dress (except to compliment) but other TSs seem to think I should be them...wear what they wear and this same critique comes from the GG side on occasion. Typically

You really should wear jeans (slacks) instead of dresses and skirts. You will fit in better

or

you know your skirts are too short, no woman your age (my age? like I really CARE how old I am?) would ever wear that.

and similar veins even having GGs offer to show me how to dress "appropriately". And I am conservative usually, it is just that I prefer dresses and skirts when the weather allows it.

But like you I read the question in how I view CDs on occasion and how "I" think they are doing a disservice to the T community and the GG community with the exaggerated looks. I often don't like the look but I realize that from a different angle I will get the same from other people (see above). I went through the overly sexual look in my path. I have done that looking for something I "thought" I was supposed to have or how I was "supposed" to be (we all know that Tgs are just looking for sex right?). So I am not surprised that those who have been in the public eye read that as overly exaggerated dressing.

I think Greenie has cleared up her meaning though