Gender Stereotypes and learned fear

[Laura912]

The thing that drove me to cross dressing may be the same that has always caused me to respect and support women. It is also what led to a career in providing their health care, fighting for their issues, and perhaps understanding better than other males in the same career, some of the special forces with which women had to cope.

[AngelaYVR]

Greenie: it is disingenuous to say you want intelligent discussion and then freak out when someone disagrees with you.

[Stephanie47]

1. Respect for women. This was never an issue for me. I saw how my grandparents and parents interacted. Both my grandmother and mother did not regularly work outside the home. Financially, there was no need for them to work outside the home. Back in the 1950's and 1960's a middle class family was supported with one paycheck. Yes, there were societal roadblocks imposed on women from an early age. Those road blocks were wrong. However, those roadblocks did not have any impact on how my family interacted. There was no emotional or physical abuse in the family. Being a cross dresser should have absolutely no bearing on respect you should have for women or anyone else.

2. Societal fears. Well, I'm sure there is a mixed bag of reactions experienced by cross dressers. My wife was livid at the cat calls she received by construction workers in Manhattan and tore into them. She had no fear telling off the oafs. I've seen some really attractive young cross dressers on this site and others. I'm sure they have gotten cat calls, whistles, etc. I have received some horn honking and cat calls from passing guys when I was younger. It was a mixed feeling. On the one hand I welcomed the acknowledgement I was attractive (at least from afar). On the other hand I feared the guy really trying to pick me up. I know many young women like the attention received from guys, and, also fear the slobs. It's a mixed bag.

If you're a cross dresser who does NOT pass and your true gender is readily discernible, then I'd say you're probably going to experience the hatred many people have for gays and lesbians, blacks and Latinos, and, any other person not like them. Over the years I've encountered so many sick individuals who dislike or hate people for no reason other than they are not like themselves. Heck, I've seen women/girls dislike pretty/attractive women because they are "plain Janes" or women who dislike overweight women and do not want to be seen with them.

3. Society does not need to become gender neutral if you are talking about presentation of the differences between the sexes. Sexual attraction should not have any bearing on how one perceives the person. I like feminine women. I like a woman who dresses well. Although my perception of femininity revolves around dresses, I see many attractive women wearing pants/jeans and tops. There is a difference in most people's minds between the feminine gender and femininity. When I was still working in a professional office there were many women. Some thought professional attire when greeting and working with attorneys and certified public accountants and business persons included wearing sweatsuits, capri pants and flip flops. Their gender may have been female, but, they were not in the least feminine. And, the same may be said of males. In my mind gender identity has nothing to do with femininity or masculinity.

[audreyinalbany]

Personally, I just glad to see you back in the discussion group Greenie! We've missed you.

[PaulaQ]

I don't want to be "gender neutral to the extreme" however I do think a shift to a more gender neutral world would be politically better. As long as in other countries men still feel like they own women, and even in the US where women make substantially less than men. There is an idea that women are worth less than men that consistently follows our society. I say that people can wear whatever they want, But often times there is still an archaic view of women on this forum. Which amazes me. Its sickening to think that there are people on here who during the day want their wives to follow all the gneder stereotypes and will criticize or critique their femininity. Obviously you do not fit into that mold.

Look, no one with any sense wants to live in a place like these:
5 countries with fashion police

But I reject the notion that giving women the ability to wear pants somehow fixed all the other social inequalities women face. In general, a big part of 70's feminism here in the US (other than denying the validity of trans women) was the idea of making women equal by making them more like men. There are certainly many areas of society that should largely be blind too gender - job opportunities, pay, political office, access to education and health care, many, many situations where women still, to this day, are routinely discriminated against world wide.

But here's a newsflash - gaining the freedom to wear pants and lose makeup (both ok in my book), did not fix women's issues. Men still want to own us, and do everything they can to control our bodies. Don't believe me? Try being young and getting your tubes tied - the doctor will do everything he can to convince you that you will one day change your mind. And he probably won't perform the procedure for you either. For that matter, try convincing one you need a vagina. "Oh but wait, that's totally different, maybe you aren't a real woman and will change your mind..." I didn't mention abortion, but the restrictions against it are another very clear example of men feeling like they own our bodies. For that matter, the difficulty young women sometimes have of obtaining reliable contraception is another.

But no, instead of work place equality and control over our own biology, we got superficial crap like the ability to wear men's clothes. Yay progress. Meanwhile, women like me who happen to dress more traditionally are assumed to be like this bitch.

Just freaking awesome.

Actually, I'm sorry, I forget myself. I'm so sorry, I meant no offense to all of the cisgender women out there.

I forgot my place. I'm not a traitor or a sell-out. I can't be, because I'm not a real woman, I'm a trans woman. So I'm an artificially constructed nazi science fair project designed either for men's pleasure, or to destroy feminism from within. Just ask: Janice Raymond, or her contemporary minions, the TERFs.

Even if the physical presentation of men and women were to be exactly the same, we all wore the same clothes, makeup or lack thereof, I believe that a persons individual masculinity or femininity will still find a way out.

Having lived on both sides of the aisle, all I can tell you is that if I hadn't had a very visual way to express my femininity, I'd have killed myself long before the physical changes from HRT altered my body. This didn't feel like some conditioned psychosocial thing. It didn't go away with talk therapy - believe you me. It wasn't influenced at all by antidepressants. What did make a difference was changing my appearance through clothing and makeup, gaining some hormonal congruence through HRT, and ultimately the changes to my body. (We still have a ways to go on that front.)

I've heard this argument before, and I just reject it. I know not everyone feels this way, but there are decided differences physically between men and women, and some of us feel a very powerful need to express those differences.

Indeed, if you were to point a pistol at me, and tell me "Look Paula, I'm going to do you a favor and prove to you that this is all in your head. Put on that suit and you'll see, it's no big deal." I'd tell you to just pull the trigger. I'd want you to pull the trigger if that was my only other choice. I will die before I deny who I am ever again.

[Vala]

1. No. Respect is earned no matter someone's gender.

2. No. You don't have to be a women or crosdresser to get a fair share of fear for daily life.

3. No. Not because I started crossdressing. I have always been a fan of not labeling anyone. No matters ones gender. And when a discussion takes place forcing something to be feminine or masculine I will always disagree.

[Beverley Sims]

The first two questions "no".

The third, er, yes.

Luca reminds me of a caged bird let out into the wild.

The bird is unaware of traffic on the road or the dangers of birds of prey that abound.

Luca, also aware of what he has been told needs to experience danger to be able to be practiced in handling it.

I learned how to interact with obstinate males by going out with my girlfriends when I was twenty.

It's not just saying F/O hairy legs, but how you say it.

[LilSissyStevie]

1. I don't really identify as a crossdresser, it's just something I do. I spend very little time crossdressed TBH. I try to respect people as individuals rather than for their group membership.

2. I don't take my show on the road. When I go out, I'm the scary one.

3. I don't dress to emulate women. I dress to obliterate any vestige of masculinity. Gender neutral doesn't do it for me. Besides, didn't they already do that in Mao's China? How'd that work out? Rather than moving society towards some ideal of gender neutral, I would decouple gender from physical sex. Let's have more masculine women and feminine men instead.

[Greenie]

Stevie: that is a wonderful goal. If I have a feminine son or a masculine daughter, I want them to live in a world where there are no stereotypes that identify them as "fag or dyke". I just know it won't be that way by the time I have kids.

Also thank you everyone who is actually participating in the conversation. Right or wrong we are all hear to learn from one another. I ask for your opinions because they are different from mine, which is so Fricken Awesome. Please ignore any negativity in the thread that has strayed from the main purpose of discussion. And let's keep pushing each others brains to chew on things in a new way we might not have thought a out before.

♡

[Katey888]

Interesting dialogue so far Greenie... we have certainly been missing the ripples from a carefully tossed pebble or question or three... So it's nice to have you back and giving us another perspective again...

1. Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

I'm treating the word 'respect' as being more about 'understanding' - and I also have difficulty thinking that I identify as a CDer given that my CD time is such a small fraction of being 'me'. In truth, I still identify more with guy me, but in this context obviously I am a CDer. I think I have developed more understanding about some of the more surface aspects and practicalities of women, but much greater depth of understanding and respect has only ever come through relationships with women - either intimate or just friendships and acquaintances. I don't believe that dressing modifies respect or understanding much compared with actually engaging with someone.

2... Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?

A little bit - having now been out a couple of times, I can get the thing about vulnerability and how others - particularly men - and their attention can often be perceived as threatening or at least unwarranted. But I've experienced bad situations as a guy too, where alcohol infused imbeciles have just been looking to argue with anyone - I think when out I'm still more aware of issues that may occur around being identified as a CDer or trans* rather than understanding how a woman feels - I think that's too much of a stretch for CDers and you need really to be a TS or full-timer to appreciate that.

3. Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

This question has received some varied interpretations... but I think has some issues... The first one is that CDers could have any impact on gender stereotypes in society given how low-profile most of us are, either positively or negatively. There are certainly some amongst us who pursue a more gender non-conforming or androgynous look - again, I just think there are so few around it makes little difference to the masses. I do think there are some bizarre ideas around as to what femininity is or means - or whether it really means anything at all. Personally, I think it is both a societal and cultural abstract. The cultural part is important too, because I'm sure I've seen significant perception differences between the US and UK here, and even regionally within the US, and I think that's attributable to culture. Without getting in too deep here, we're just too few to be breaking any molds as such for broader society. CDers, as a whole, are just too few and too irrelevant to have much of an impact on society AT ALL. There... I said it. (Let me put a rider in to say that doesn't mean I don't think some of our issues are relevant, particularly at the TS end of things, just that we don't represent a relevant enough mass for society to care much...)

Thought provoking Greenie - do keep prodding us (at least Luca then gets some down time... )

Katey x

[Alice Torn]

Dressing for years occasionally, has not seem to have changed my respect for some women, but has increased my appreciation for respectable women, Same goes for men. Yes, i feel the fear women must feel, when out dressed up classy, and alone. I admire their great guts! To go out everyday, in the city, or country, alone! As far as gender neutral NO. I love 'viva la difference'. I find society boring if it gets too gender neutral. I agree with Sometimes Miss, too.

[Dana44]

Wow, one of my problems as a male was too much respect for women. Got my bell rung a couple times. I think that CD'ing is truly a way for us to identity with our feminine side. Respect, is something learned. I found that I now judge a woman on their own personalities and interactions. I would not do a girly drink at a bar. Also, I buy the products for women, yet on a razor, I did by one and it has broken. The male razors seem to be more stout. On going out, you are making the best statement that one can and that is to pass as a woman. My first time out, I think that I did not pass... Wild hair, tried to flat iron it. I have thick hair and it had a lot of volume. I probably looked like a wild six foot four female. I was dressed for my age. That is the only thing that might have saved me. LOL, I did not get that many looks. They probably thought it was some old kook. I feel that most here in Texas, kindly looks away. We have to buy a lot of female products on the fact that they do not make them for males. Yet I'm getting used to things like perfume. I wonder if they have one in musk, LOL

[Tina_gm]

To Greenie, your welcome. I love threads like these. they make us all think. Think about ourselves, think about others and all of our various roles in life, regardless of our birth gender. I will say this- and not that I am agreeing with this, or excusing this- That many CDers, TG whatever get wrapped up into gender stereotypes and focus more intently on it, to the point that on some occasions it can become harshly hypocritical because we who are in the TG spectrum experience life differently than either cis genders. We are sometimes in a type of gender purgatory. We relate to and connect to women on some levels, but unless we are fully TS then only on some levels. Likewise of our own birth gender, we connect on some levels, but not as much as cis gendered men. It is easy to become hyper focused on any type of gender stereotype. I experienced a bit of this myself early on in the 1st few months of my letting go and the beginning journey of my own acceptance. And it can be a dark place. It does take some effort to let that place go too, at least for me it did. But thankfully, I am now one who is far less judgemental of myself and others, and through observation has seen that most cis gendered people at some level will cross a line at which is stereotyped for the opposite gender. And I fully agree with you that I wish for a society that is equal in all opportunities for both men and women... regardless of our birth gender, and for those of us who fall somewhere in between.

Paula Q- I do not disagree with you. Our physical presentation is as important of our identity as any. What I was implying is that without such physical differences, those who are masculine and those who are feminine will still have ways of expression, by physical actions and by activities of employment and self fulfillment. There are more reasons that men would rather wear a tool belt than an apron than just society expectations. There are reasons why men took on the roles they did and vice versa. There is societal norms yes, and they do influence behavior to a good extent. Remove all of that and those who are masculine and those who are feminine will still migrate to different places generally. That was what I really was getting at.

[Michelle789]

On the other hand, it's women who insist that I continue the macho masculine role because they cannot accept, and are not attracted to, a feminine male.

Men and women are both responsible for perpetuating male masculinity and machismo. Most men are afraid of losing their masculinity or expressing feminine, and are afraid of being around any man who expressing any behaviors or expressions of the feminine.

Why do you think that pushing society to a more gender neutral direction would be a good thing at all. Sure, overly rigid roles for women (and men) have been a problem....
I'd invite people who disagree with me, and view me as a sell-out, a prostitute, or even as a grotesque parody of womanhood to please PM me, and I'd be more than happy to discuss this. (I've heard all of those comparisons, btw.)

Very well said Paula. I agree with your sentiments exactly.

Btw, I have had a number of people within the trans community criticize me for my stereotypical feminine way of dressing. I have been told things like "Are you going to wear 'normal' clothes to the meeting next time?" and that I dress "age inappropriately" and that I need new clothes. All from within the trans community. This came from people who feel that I am some kind of sellout by reinforcing feminine stereotypes. I simply enjoy dressing in a stereotypically feminine manner, and this reflects the feminine woman that I am. I am not trying to force other women, trans or cis, to dress as I do.

When I first started publicly presenting last year, I had wrestled with the issue on how I should dress. I was into the whole debate on "dress to blend" vs "dress feminine" vs "be yourself". I knew I wanted to dress as my authentic self, which is a feminine woman who wears skirts, dresses, long hair, and makeup. Yet I had read on this forum, along with articles I had read before I joined the forum, and I had also heard from within the local trans community, that I should dress to blend in, which means mainly jeans, t-shirts, flip flops, sneakers. While I don't dress like a hooker, no 6 inch heels or skirts that are too short, I do dress in a very stereotypically feminine manner. I had to apologize to myself for the longest time that I was commiting the most mortal sin of being a TS, dressing too femininely and that people would take me for a crossdresser (if even that since many CDers choose to wear casual clothing). It took lots of therapy and publicly presenting to get over myself and to realize that it's okay to be a transwoman and to be able to express my femininity in a way that reflects who I really am, and in a way that makes me happy. That I am not a "man in a dress" and I am not a crossdresser.

I agree that forcing everyone to dress in a gender neutral way is simply forcing us from one box into another. No one belongs in boxes. Everyone should be free to express themselves as they wish.

[Greenie]

Somewhere along the lines, my idea of SOCIALLY gender nuetrul got turned into forcing everyone into the same clothes!!!

That not what I meant! Lol. What I mean is that pushing feminine and masculine to the extreme and saying that women are ONLY feminine if they wear skirts is wrong. I would think that the best wouldn't be a militant everyone in grey suits, But everyone accpting of each other and what they where,. Neutral where skirts done equate to femininity by default and pants don't equate to masculinity. Where people are just people regardless of what they wear.

I think that would be utopia. Luca wearing a skirt in public, without trying to pass and no one gives a damn. Sounds Nice to me.

But remember this comes form the perspective of a GG who has never been in a CDers shoes.

[Tina_gm]

1. I've both gained, and lost respect for women as I learned more about how their lives are different from ours. It really depends upon the situation. In some ways women are nicer than men, in other ways, they're meaner. It all goes to show that rather than exact equality, we're equally different.
2. I grew up as one of the youngest kids in my neighborhood, bullied and tormented by many. I learned very early that I could never compete physically, so I had to learn ways around the dangers that presented themselves to me. As I got older, I realized that women were often in the same situation as I had been in all my life. On the other hand, I also learned that women say one thing, and mean another; a great many say they want true equality, but also want to retain the social advantages that they currently have, all while demanding more from men at the same time.

3. I don't perpetuate the gender stereotypes, because I don't interact with the world as a female. On the other hand, it's women who insist that I continue the macho masculine role because they cannot accept, and are not attracted to, a feminine male.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Men also say things and mean other things, but different than women, sometimes. Equal but different is still equal.

nicer in some ways and meaner in others is a wash. women "insist" on gender stereotypes but no more than men do, or society in general does. There is though the occasional woman who actual prefers a more feminine man and is still not a lesbian. Few and far between perhaps, but it does exist and vice versa. For all those other women, eh, who can blame them simply for being hetero. Cross dressers may be a little more understanding of a woman who wants short hair, grows her leg hair and other body hair, wears mens cologne, doesn't wear makeup and participates in more male dominated activities????? many men will befriend such a woman, but how many will be picking such a woman to want them 1st to be a sexual partner or a potential wife/mother?

My wife does not prefer my long nails or shaved body, she deals with it because it makes me happier. many women cannot get past this, but there are some who can. It doesn't make them better, it just makes them different, just as we are.

[PaulaQ]

Somewhere along the lines, my idea of SOCIALLY gender nuetrul got turned into forcing everyone into the same clothes!!!

That not what I meant! Lol. What I mean is that pushing feminine and masculine to the extreme and saying that women are ONLY feminine if they wear skirts is wrong. ... Neutral where skirts done equate to femininity by default and pants don't equate to masculinity. Where people are just people regardless of what they wear.

I saw no way to interpret your statement about stereotypical feminine presentation as meaning anything but the rather hyper femme way some of us present as being a throwback to the bad old days of repression of women. If this isn't what you meant, then I apologize, but it is a very, very, very commonly expressed sentiment here and in many other places.

A lot of us who are trans take a lot of crap for being "too feminine." I had a therapist (straight cis woman), observe to me recently that she saw all these other cis women who kept themselves rather meticulously feminine as little better than prostitutes because they looked the way they did to get and keep their wealthy husbands. It told me a lot about where I stood, in her opinion.

Clothing says something about you. There is a language associated with it, and often concepts about our identity are conveyed through it. I think stripping gender from it is exactly the WRONG thing to do. It is like stripping the meaning from words, so that nobody is offended because no one really knows what you mean, since nothing has a meaning in the first place.

I think it would be far better for Luca to be able to wear a skirt not because it's become this gender neutral garment, along with most others that don't directly interface to our anatomy, but rather because she is trying to express a fundamental truth about her identity, that she is male, but with a feminine side. In other words, she should be able to be authentically who she is, without judgement, not because clothes don't matter, but rather because our society accepts people as they truly are.

[kimdl93]

Ever play that group game where you write something down, then whisper it to the person next to you. The message passes orally from one person to another till everyone has heard and repeated it. And, invariably the message has changed immensely by the time it reaches the last person. So it seems to be with discussions.

That's not all bad. The free for all nature may reveal some unexpected nuances. At the same time, it's inevitable that each of us will read things into the original post that reflect our peculiar interests, concerns and biases. So for some clothing are cues to the being they wish to be seen as. For others, clothing is sexually charged. So the discussion can veer off in either direction, depending on the perspective of the commenter.

So, my slant tends towards gender identity. In my ideal world, anyone can be accepted at where they personally aspire to be on the gender spectrum. But for me, whether I'm wearing jeans, linen shorts, slacks or a skirt, I want to be be perceived and accepted as a woman.

As Nicole said some posts back, there are for want of other terms, gender markers...physical attributes...that we are hard wired to associate with gender. For people like me, the challenge is to mask those that say male, while accentuating those that say female. I don't see this as perpetuating a stereotype. Now, if One was into dressing as a sexual thing, One might make choices that do express a sexualized representation of femininity. Although that expression may be either private or, I suppose shared with people of similar interests, it does perpetuate some sexual stereotyping.

But honestly, in the grand order of things, the choices made by transgender people, by proportion at least, have a negligible impact on societies representations of women when you compare our impact with the representation of women advertising, movies, even news programs.

[Greenie]

You see and I think since I have not grown up with the need to have a gender identity other than my own, there is no way that my opinion on the matter will match that of Paula or kims. Which is totally fine for me. You all see your gender identity, and the expression of it, something that is integral to you being who you are. Maybe because it was repressed for so long. This is a pain or a feeling that I will never experience.

That's why I love asking these questions. We all come from a different place in life, gg, cd, ts. We all have different wants and needs. That to me is so interesting. I understand how both of you feel, but fundamentally for someone who has never struggled to find or maintain the perfect gender identity, I find gender and the societal pressures of it, to be a burden. Possibly because to to my gender, I am treated poorly at work, I do make less than men, and I am constantly reminded on this forum by cders who are not as pleasant as the most of you, that the fact I wear pants makes me "less" of something. While the illusion of femininity is not important to me, they key factor is the idea of being "less" of anything, than anyone else.

Due to my life experiences, and the fact I was born with a gender and identity that "matched" the body I was given. I never really have had to struggle with my identity. I am sure I take advantage of all that you work so hard for every day.

It wasn't until becoming a so of a cder that I realized how I feel about gender in society as a whole. I would like to be able to dress how I please, and be just a person. Female is not an identity marker that is important to me, it's something that just is. But I assure you if I was born male, the way my brain works and how I feel about gender and who I am, might closely be aligned with your Philosophy on the matter.

P.s. I am on a cell phone so sorry for any autocorrects.

[mykell]

hi greenie/ KAE

1. Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

1) i will answer yes here, not that i treated women poorly or disrespected them but have in fact seen how much harder it is too maintain the regiment they endure to be all they can be, let me define this, (when my dressing at home consists of throwing on some things to sit around in front of the computer relaxed no makeup or dressed to perfection, with maybe a selfie photo shoot to share here to hown my skills or to just share my look, easy...but a GG is shuffling back and forth to work daily, errands, perhaps little ones to care for, societal pressures to conform too, being judged by men and women daily however they are dressed.) i admire and adore how they can still find time to achieve a positive and classy look....sometimes making it look soo easy. the more i learn the more i appreciate....

2. Cross Dressers often get put in situations that GG's have been in their entire lives ( concern for safety, being out at night, feeling like something bad is going to happen to you because the way you dressed) Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?
2) i will say no to this one, i have always had and felt that need for they're safety all my life and while i am a CD i never left the safety of my home as of this time, i always worry for safety for all folks for we still have hostile and violent people among us who will prey on those they assume are weak and dont share our respect for life.
i will say that the odds are not in favor of women as you presented it.
also i dont feel that society has as much to play in that scenario as much as pure reality for fact that their will always be thugs that will try to skirt the rules and take advantage when they get the chance to. so not a pressure from society but just due diligence for safety.

3. Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

3) for this i will admit maybe, while i do wear 6in heels i feel that in proportion to a shorter GG in 4in shoe the proportion will be the same in look, my choice in clothes are borderline, i strive to be classy, tops and skirts, recently have an affection for jeans, know my reality to be public i cant wear my heels and toned down outfits will help with my presentation but i still find that i like more expensive and fashionable looks...even though they are not in budget....

this being said i do shop for myself and have even tried on clothes in shops and believe these little routines will eventually lead to a greater acceptance as it opens folks up to the reality we are here and we are not going anywhere but forward, whatever the reaction when we are seen the inevitability will be a discussion, hoping that they become more positive as time goes on....hoping that leads to a more gender neutral perspective for folks !

wishing continued safety for everyone !! hope this is what you were looking for in answers....

[Nadine Spirit]

Hi Greenie. Interesting post.

#1 - No. I have long respected women. It has given me more insight into silly little things like what an art form applying makeup is, why sometimes I will observe my wife put on and take off several variations of an outfit, how important it is to have the right shoes for the outfit and occasion. But those are such irrelevant things in the bigger picture of what it means to be a woman. And while I am on that topic, just because I on occasion dress as a woman, it does not mean that I really have any idea what it is like to have lived life as a woman.

#2 - Possibly, but maybe not in how you are describing it. I had fears about going out before I ever did. I had fears about what society would do to me. Now after about ten years of getting out and about, I realize that the fears were only in my head. But... what was I afraid of? Being chased down with torches and pitchforks and being burned at the steak! Maybe not literally, but at least in some way.

Our society is a weird one. I think there are many myths out there. I think it is a myth that all women grow up fearful and all men grow up fearless. I think that we as human beings need to understand that bad things can happen. Do we all need to live lives being in fear of the unknown, no, but we should also realize that being cautious and mindful is helpful in remaining safe.

#3 - I get out there and do me. And me is normally a mix of both the masculine and the feminine. While some may view things I do as perpetuating stereotypes, I don't think overall that is what I do.

As far as gender non-conforming goes, that is primarily how I identify. I also cross dress fully on occasion. I do both. That btw, is why I consider myself to be transgender.

[Michelle789]

I don't think that forcing society into a gender neutral manner of clothing is the way to go. It would be better to keep garments masculine and feminine, but permit men to wear feminine garments without fear or reprecussions, and the same thing for women to be able to wear masculine garments. Same thing goes for masculine and feminine behaviors too.

[giuseppina]

...1. Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

I don't think that crossdressing necessarily increases respect or empathy for the other gender (both M2F and F2M). I've had more than a few involuntary and gratuitous experiences educating me about how genetic women feel about unwanted sexual comments from people of both sexes while dressed male.

2. Cross Dressers often get put in situations that GG's have been in their entire lives ( concern for safety, being out at night, feeling like something bad is going to happen to you because the way you dressed) Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?

Maybe sufficient, but not necessary. Some of us who have been bullied as children and adults are conditioned to feel this way because these events have happened. In my case, it hasn't depended on clothing because I have never been out wearing anything visible that society, in general, says is for women only.

3. Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

One of my pet peeves is stereotyping. If I feel safe in doing so, I will say something putting the stereotyper in their place, otherwise I keep my mouth shut.

[Greenie]

Michelle789, if you can go back and read post, 41 I believe. I say that was not my intent. I also explain my feelings about gender a couple posts after that! But alas as kim says, people will read their own bias I to anything, and as forums and threads do, they will merge and change. Just making clear I don't want to force everyone I to gender neutral clothes. So you and I actually agree. Please go and read my comments there so you can see as such!

[JayeLefaye]

Hi Greenie,

First off, thanks for hanging in there/here with us for so long! Glad to see you a tad more active!

I'll do my best, although I had to write it all out in "word" and then cut & paste. Hope it works.

Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

I’m not quite sure that “respect” is the right word. As others have pointed out, respect is something that has to be earned on an individual basis; unless your first name is Aretha and your last name is Franklin, in which case it can be demanded!

But if you were to include the terms “empathy” and “appreciation”, then I would have to give a longer answer.

The short answer would be “No more than if I weren’t a CD”. The reason for this, is that I seem to have always been empathetic. Watching my older sister make her way through an extremely male-dominated field, starting in the early 70’s when she was only 21, taught me most of what I needed to know regarding what it takes/took to be a woman in regards to the workplace.

Reading Marilyn French’s “The Women’s Room”, twice(and neither one as a class assignment)...:-)…Was a huge eye-opener for my 25 year old self. It’s a book that I can’t recommend enough if anyone wants to turn an eye toward history to see just how far we’ve come...And my learning continues...

As for “appreciation”, well, having watched a handful of S.O’s (lessee…there have been an office worker, a high school teacher, an architect, a landscaper, and a therapist)over the years as they got ready to face the day taught me appreciation of the “daily beauty/maintenance routine”, and also made me extremely thankful that I’m a guy, and as such, can throw on a hat and pair of sunglasses and hit the door.

Cross Dressers often get put in situations that GG's have been in their entire lives ( concern for safety, being out at night, feeling like something bad is going to happen to you because the way you dressed) Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?

My first quick answer to this was going to be a “no”, because even in lumberjack mode, I always have my keys out and ready before I get to the car. I also never use parking garages, perhaps as the result of watching too many movies where nothing good EVER happens in a parking garage!!! But after thinking about it a bit, I have to say “yes”. I came to my “yes” because I realize that when I’m out and about en femme, I often find myself walking with a purpose, as opposed to sauntering(unless I’m in a store and going through the racks). I think this comes down to feeling safer as a “moving target”, and with dressing, also comes a heightened awareness of my surroundings. So, yes, definitely! Being out with one or more other folks alleviates a lot of the innate fear.

Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

Hmmm….This one is difficult, so I’ll just ramble and hope that I eventually stumble upon an actual “point”. The thing that makes this a particularly tricky question, is that it almost implies that ANY GG who goes out wearing a skirt/dress, with make-up and accessories etc. is ALSO perpetuating a strereotype. And I don’t think that that is what your question is aimed at, so I’ll move past that aspect.

If I had been out & about when I was in my 20’s, I’d probably be answering yes, and would have gone out almost exclusively in miniskirts and vertigo inducing heels . But I was a closet dresser until I hit my early 50’s. My first excursions out were all in skirts and low heels. I also wore a lot of pink, which in retrospect, I think, was because I was going through an escalated “fashion phase” that most GGs get to experience over the course of their adolescence.

For the last year though, my dressing has become much more age-appropriate. I still prefer skirts, but they’re just not as practical for day to day errand runnings. But the thing with skirts/dresses, that I think a lot of GGs don’t quite understand, is the feeling of freedom and exhilaration of the “first time”. I mean, oh my!!! To stand on a street corner, in front of God and everyone, chatting with another CDer while wearing a skirt! To feel the breeze on my thighs! To not have to worry if my fly was down. To do a slight twirl just so that I could feel the fabric sway! Not to mention the feeling of being a bit of an outlaw, breaking societies expectations/rules, without actually doing anyone any harm!

It’s hard to describe how it feels to have been denied, for 50 years, the right to do something as simple as wearing a skirt in public, and then finally getting up the courage to say “screw ‘em”!!

But at this stage of my life, and I hope it continues, I like to think of myself as: “" … helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction”? Every generation ought to hope for the best for those who follow. I believe that going out, nicely decked out(whether in a skirt or slacks) but not expecting to pass upon close inspection, is my little contribution to those who come next. I interact, am friendly and courteous, and always answer any question asked, which mostly center around which store I bought an item at(because I have excellent taste)...:-)

As for “gender neutral”, I’m glad you clarified with:

“Neutral where skirts don't equate to femininity by default and pants don't equate to masculinity. Where people are just people regardless of what they wear.
I think that would be utopia. Luca wearing a skirt in public, without trying to pass and no one gives a damn. Sounds Nice to me. “

Nice? Dayum, that would be heaven...or as you say, utopia!!!! I want to be able to go out wearing whatever I please, depending on my mood, and sometimes, I just want to feel pretty:-)

Thanks for asking, and please give yourself and Luca a big ol' hug for me!!!

Jaye