Communication and moving forward: All observations welcomed - GGs encouraged

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

DISCLAIMER: While I know some do not like the term SO, I am using it as a catch all for people irrespective of the person being your wife, girl friend, boy friend, husband . . . it just makes it easier. So sorry for any offence taken.

I have been noticing quite a few posts from folks who have recently come out to their SOs with things going swimmingly only to have it all fall off the rails prompting advice sought from the community. One of the common denominators I find in a lot of these posts is the communication or lack there of. So I thought in an effort to help those who may be in that place, I would discuss communication based on my own experience mixed with much I have learned from the many great people here . Okay, okay . . . I shamelessly admit I just like to write and since I have not done so in awhile it gives me the opportunity to jump on the soapbox But seriously, it is an important part of disclosure to your SOs and one that gets talked about as secondary order effect but not the topic of a post. Please note that this is not about "telling your SO" but more about where you go from that point. Feel free to add to the discussion based on your own experience but, I am also interested in hearing from GGs who have experienced this journey from the opposite side of the fence.

So . . . the proverbial cat is now out of the bag and the elephant in the room is securely seated in the arm chair opposite you sipping politely on a mint julep . . . you have told your SO that you cross dress.

Naturally, there is going to be a "waiting to exhale" moment as your SO processes what you just said and then reacts. In most cases it is going to go one of a few ways (1) "I understand completely", hugs all around, "Let's get your girl on"; (2) a curt "I see" followed by silence then a barrage of questions; (3) silence followed by retreat to the safety of a room; or (4) non acceptance on any level usually accompanied by yelling, fighting and whatnot. Nope, not the only reactions but others tend to be variations of these themes. So where does that leave you? Well depending on the outcome, it can leave you twisting in the wind or not. However, in either case communication is going to be a key ingredient to move the disclosure forward.

Timing for communication will vary depending the outcome. If your SO is fully supportive from the outset you can commence the discussion almost immediately. However, even then you might want to keep things light and respond to questions without getting too wrapped up in minutia details. For example you might want to talk about what dressing means to you and not get mired in what types of undies you prefer to wear or that you would like to get breast forms right away. Initial conversations should help alleviate your SOs concerns and help them to better understand what this means to you. If your SO has gone to silent mode or you just had a huge argument . . . give them room. Let cooler heads prevail and then come at it in a day or so starting off with something like "I know what I disclosed was a lot to drop on you but I would really like to discuss this a bit further if you are willing" The key is to get the discussion on the table and move forward. Ignoring it will only go bad for both of you and likely wind up in a heated debate. Naturally this has to be balanced with sensitivity to your SO wanting space and time but that is something you can work on together to find a mutually agreed upon time to discuss.

Dos and Don'ts

This is based on my own experience and some may have other feelings on these so please do share. Initial conversation(s) will have themes (e.g., are you gay, do you want a sex change, do you want to go out) which represent the foundation of all future conversations about your dressing. So some personal dos and don'ts I have discerned both in my own conversations and from people here:

Do ask your SO if they have any questions: It is no good to drop this tidbit of information, let it sit out there then say "We're good then" and walk away. Your SO is going to have questions, so let them ask those questions and always let them know they can ask you anything at any time.

Do be honest in your responses: The cat is already out the bag so you don't really have anything to hide. If your SO asks you a question be honest in your response. If you don't know, say so. For example if your SO asks do you plan to go out of the house dressed and you are not 100 percent sure you have no desire to do so, say "At this point no, but I am not sure about the future as I am still trying to find myself as well. What I can tell you is if I should decide to do so, I will definitely have that discussion with you"

Do allow your SO time to process your conversation(s): Don't always expect an immediate "thumbs up" on everything you are telling your SO. It may take time to process and if your SO cannot give you the "nod" on something you said, table it for discussion later. Specifically, don't force the issue.

Don't make promises you know you can't keep: This kind of goes hand in hand with the "be honest". I have found that some are so fixated on getting concessions for dressing (in any way) that they will promise the moon knowing full well they cannot. So they promise not to do something only to try and covertly push the issue later. For example, "I promise not to go out dressed in public", knowing full well they already have and will continue to do so on the sly. This will never go well should your SO find out and will most likely sabotage any mutual gains made.

Don't make it all about you: I know it seems kind of counter-intuitive since you are the one disclosing this information. However there are two people who are going to have to navigate this journey and both need to be considered.

Don't act like a petulant child if you don't get your way: I am not trying to be harsh but if you are going to stomp your feet and say things like "that's not fair" or "fine, I'll just throw everything out and be miserable" that will accomplish nothing. Take what your SO is saying as a potential boundary of how far they are willing to go and capitalize on it to open dialogue. For example, if it is important for you to have that concession, look for a mutual compromise. "Okay, I am fine with not going out in public in case some of our friends see me but how about if I were to travel to a place where nobody knows me, would that work?".

It is about compromise . . . not demands

Inevitably the conversation will spin in "How is this going to work"? Specifically what you want to do (e.g., underdress, make-up/no make-up, full dressing, going out). Again there are two people involved and no one party (the CDer or the SO) should be holding all the cards. If one party is making all the demands and the other party all the concessions, it will go badly at some juncture as the one making all the concessions will become bitter, resentful and things will explode. Talk about everything and come to an accord on what you can both live with or live without. This is dependent on you and your SO and everyone will be different. For example, my wife has no issues with me dressing when I want so long as it doesn't impinge on agreed upon plans. So if I decided to dress one day (nothing else on the go) I just do so, I don't ask permission or request the honor to do so as we have agreed it is my decision. However, if I plan to out myself to a mutual friend then we discuss it prior as she has requested a veto depending on the mutual friend . . . I agreed to that. The end state is that boundaries, rules, guidelines or whatever you prefer to call them need to be mutually agreed upon to have any value. In addition, all boundaries should be open to renegotiation should things change. This is not just for the CDer but for the SO as well should their feelings of support change.

Communication is not a one time thing

The process of communication is an ongoing thing. For example my wife I started or initial conversation when I first came out and that was followed by many others as we negotiated boundaries, renegotiated and educated one another. We still take one day a month (down from once a week initially) to discuss all things CD. It just helps to keep the dialogue option open and while many times we have nothing to discuss other times we do.

Misinterpreting moods, silence and whatnot

As humans we are emotional creatures and various things affect our mood. I know I can have a bad day at work and come home all sullen and silent and the same can be said about others. However, should your SO come home while you happen to be in "full on girl mode" and go silent and moody don't naturally assume they are upset with your CDing. While that may be the case, it could also be just as likely that they had a bad day at work and are just trying to vent. Shake it off, then simply ask "if there is anything you can do". If it is just a bad day, then help your SO work through it. If it does have something to do with CDing, then you need to get back to the fundamentals of communication and work through it. On the return side, should you get sullen and moody about something which has nothing to do with your CDing or agreed upon boundaries, let your SO know so they don't think you are upset about your agreements.

Communication is about education

You have to admit, this is a lot for an SO to swallow and your communication should always aim to educate what it means to you and how you see it fitting into your relationship. This goes both ways as you need to listen to your SO to ensure you are in tune with their needs when it comes to the relationship.

When things go bad

It is probable that you could be moving in a rapid forward direction with dressing then all of sudden your SO's acceptance comes completely off the rails. Should this occur . . . take a deep breath, calm things down and begin the communication process again. This may mean reevaluation of boundaries or simple reassurance. Regardless, don't let it twist in the wind and rationally discuss how to move forward from there. Bear in mind though, at the end of the day should an impasse be reached and neither can compromise this is where the viability of the relationship needs to be examined as sometimes it can be a bridge too far for either party to cross.

Hugs

Isha

[Isabella Ross]

A well-done tome, Isha. Looks like great advice.

[Persephone]

Magnificent! Thank you, Isha!

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Athena_]

I like the do's and don'ts. Looking forward to following this thread. Thanks Isha!

[Katie Russell]

Hi

I understand that importance of communication, however, it is a two way thing.

If your SO is not willing to communicate and just shuts down any conversation straight away then how often do you keep prodding in the hope of getting a reaction? You have to be careful as it may not be the reaction you want!

If she needs time to process the information then is she better left alone - however long it takes. (weeks, months or years)? Let her initiate the communication when she is good and ready. I'm sure she doesn't need to be constantly reminded that you CD by you bringing it up every 5 minutes. As you say it's not all about you so don't keeping pushing it.

Maybe she doesn't care that you CD but just doesn't want to be involved - why would she want to talk about it? I know my wife has no interest in cricket and so I don't discuss that with her either!

I don't want to be negative but just give an alternate view to the need to communicate all the time.

Katie

[Marcelle]

Hi Katie,

I don't debate your stance at all and in a way it is in keeping with what I wrote. It is plausible that your SO will not want to talk about it after the big reveal and go into silent shut down mode. You can try to give it time and then bring it up again and your SO will either agree to talk or decline. If your SO declines to talk then you can accept that you have moved into a DADT relationship in which case your boundaries are clear . . . never let your SO see you dressed, never discuss dressing or broach the subject again. If you can live with that then that is the best way forward. However, I will posit that not talking about it (at all) will most likely fly off the rails at some point in the relationship as something like that is just too big to ignore.

Hugs

Isha

[Michelle (Oz)]

Thank you Isha, I sense a book coming on, if not at least an article or sticky here.

I've thought for a while that a co-authored book by Isha and Reine would be an interesting addition and helpful for the community.

However, I will posit that not talking about it (at all) will most likely fly off the rails at some point in the relationship as something like that is just too big to ignore.

Isha, it is difficult to understand the many nuances of DADT arrangements and their ability to provide satisfactory outcomes, particularly for those who are accepted or, even better, supported by their SOs.

I can absolutely assure you that a DADT arrangement works wonderfully well for my wife and I. My wife absolutely does not want to know/see/talk about my dressing. That is how she copes - out of sight out of mind. My only boundaries are those self-imposed.

[SandraB]

Isha:

This is one of the great threads worth well beyond the price of admission. I have nothing to add other than my full endorsement of all the views expressed by the contributors to the thread. The insights so honestly and unselfishly shared by fellow members based on their own real experiences is testament to the supportive community we're all part of here. This one's a keeper!

[pamela7]

Thank you Isha, I sense a book coming on, if not at least an article or sticky here.

If I may add some comments from my own mistakes and things I got right - so far:

1. there can never be enough reassurance of love, demonstrations of still being the same man, so do those manly things she appreciates, do MORE of them.

2. we might scare our SO by revealing how little we know of how far it might go, so I feel its best to express the present feeling as the present truth.

3. be supersensitive and open to her, she will not know her own responses, and deserves time to deal with the shock. governments through the ages rarely give the public shocks, they give piecemeal truths because it allows time for adaption and acceptance.

4. I'd be wary of a whole complete CD revelation and suggest gradual steps, yes it feels like manipulation but it's safer for both and the relationship, and its really caring rather than relieving a personal burden of need-to-reveal.

just some thoughts :-)

xxx Pamela

[Katie Russell]

Hi Isha

I accept that I and many other members here are in DADT relationships. Because of the fact we are in a DADT does that not preclude us from bring up the subject every so often. All I'm saying is that if she wants to talk about it I'm willing to discuss it openly. If not then I'm not going to raise the subject.

I've posted thread here about how to instigate the conversation but at the end of the day I don't want to rock the boat so just drift along in ignorant bliss. Maybe I am just kicking the can down the road but why bring something to a head now when there is so much to lose.

Katie

[charlenesomeone]

Lots of great information, should be a sticky.

[Greenie]

I echo many of these thoughts in my "tips to an SO acceptance thread". Made a sticky a long time ago. I think both that and this should be stickies and live on for forever as solid advice. People often come to this forum because shit just hit the fan, or they are too afraid of what to tell their SO's.

Communication is the key to everything. Not just talking about CDing. When there is a communication breakdown in the relationship, relationships cannot stay strong. They falter and wave. Needs, wants, desires, fears, issues, successes, all need to be communicated to your partner.

If the only time you ever sit down and have a thought out talk, is to talk about CDing, then there is a communication breakdown in all other aspects of life.

I often wonder when people haves these "coming out sessions" with their SO's, if this is the first time that they have sat down and had an important conversation with their SO of this nature. This alone would startle a SO, (why is this happening now, this sit down is so serious, etc etc). Where as I think people who are succsessful have been having these hard conversations about other topics for a long time, and this is just another one added to the bunch.

[PaulaQ]

Where as I think people who are succsessful have been having these hard conversations about other topics for a long time, and this is just another one added to the bunch.

What you say here is probably true, although in my case, my wife and I had been together 17 years of marriage, and we had resolved many serious problems together, and had had many, many very serious talks. Our communication was quite good, except for this one topic...

[kimdl93]

If the only time you ever sit down and have a thought out talk, is to talk about CDing, then there is a communication breakdown in all other aspects of life.

I often wonder when people haves these "coming out sessions" with their SO's, if this is the first time that they have sat down and had an important conversation with their SO of this nature. This alone would startle a SO, (why is this happening now, this sit down is so serious, etc etc). Where as I think people who are succsessful have been having these hard conversations about other topics for a long time, and this is just another one added to the bunch.

Following this line, it seems to me that the communication issues combine with or exacerbate ingrained behaviors and attitudes that can be toxic in a relationship. In a relationship where issues are argued or ignored to avoid conflict, or where marriage where rigid belief systems are the main binding force between partners, the introduction of a conversation on gender acquires explosive potential.

[Teresa]

Isha,
We all know that you have been through a bad time and your advice is well thought out and written and many thanks for that !

I have to take up Katie's points because I feel I'm in the same situation ! You finally decide to come clean be honest about your CDing but you don't get any response, and if you push too hard you get an explosion ! Katie doesn't mention her age but I can tell you it doesn't get any easier with age ! Mentally you can't take the same pressure eventually you find you've run into a brick wall and struggle to function at all !
If it takes more than a few days to respond to the conversation it's not going to happen at all, leaving it weeks or months is purgatory ! I find it unfair of your partner because you honestly want to clear the air !
I have commented on boundaries before, they have to sensible workable ones, otherwise you find your partner inadvertently on the wrong side of them and your no better off because they aren't working !
I know Isha has strong views on workable boundaries !

[Katie Russell]

Hi

I've been thinking about Allsteamedup's comments an trying to put it into a perspective that I might understand.

The best I can come up with is:

Your wife has an affair. After a long conversation and much soul searching you decide to forgive her and make a go of your marriage. It will take time to come to terms with what has happened, you feel sick to the stomach, betrayed and you'll need to rebuild your self esteem. You know that time is great healer and life needs to return to normal for you to feel confident again. What you don't want is your SO continually referring to her ex-lover, how he did this or that. How he made her feel great etc. That would not only be insensitive but could destroy any future hope for the marriage. If you want to know any details, such as why, when etc you'll ask but you want her to keep quite about it.

Is that how many of our SO feel? If it is then I think that many of us could relate to that. That's why a DADT relationship can work. It allows time for her to heal in her own time. I don't think you need to communicate about your CDing unless asked. What you do need to do is reassure her that you are still the man she married, make her feel loved and that she is special to you. That communication is great and will help to build those bridges.


Katie.

[Shaedow]

Hi & thank u for the wonderful post Isha.
As a GG, I can say a lot about communication. I will start with a portion of my intro which I feel fits quite nicely here:
"We met on an online dating site, corresponded by Messenger & phone for almost two years, then finally met in person in October 2013. We have been together ever since & I really don't want to lose him. He says he told me during that time that he liked to wear women's clothes. He may have made oblique references to it, which was easy for me to ignore or pretend I didn't hear what I thought I did. I would have appreciated him telling me in clear, concrete terms; I may not have felt the sense of betrayal & dishonesty that I do now (I told him EVERYTHING about me). I tell myself that I do trust him & I accept his lifestyle choices, however, sometimes I feel like I am lying to myself & to him. That I don't really accept & never will. I feel like I am caught in the crosshairs of what is a "choice that is not a choice;" if I want to keep him (which I do with all my heart) I have to accept. But sometimes I feel like I am just tolerating for the sake of the relationship...."
Excessive communication can be too much of a good thing, however. I don't think DADT is the right answer for my personal situation, but constant conversation about all the aspects of CDing can cause me to want to bury my head under the covers & pretend it doesn't exist at all. I don't need the constant reminder that my world has been turned upside down & I am struggling to right myself & not slide off the edge...
I have my own issues (depression, anxiety, etc.) to deal with which creates wildly inconsistent mood changes. I struggle to survive in a world that is at best a gyroscope that manages to stay upright the majority of the time. I know my SO has difficulty understanding & accepting my worldview just as I do his. Communication is doubling vital in our relationship, however, cannot take over our lives & become the only thing we have in common (the CD conversations I mean).
Ah hell, I think I am not making sense any more & will just stop here. For those who are interested, plz read my initial introduction as it explains in much clearer terms my feelings & reactions to my SO's CDing. I was in a good place that day & the words just flowed...

[Bria]

Isha, an excellent presentation, I'll have do spend a little time digesting what you have said. My experience so far is somewhere between a 2 and a 3. More later!

Hugs, Bria

[Tina_gm]

So much good stuff here. My own 2cents from my own situation.... communication yes, but don't overdo it. Talks don't have to go on for hours. My wife doesn't mind talking about it, but not for very long, maybe up to a half hour, usually not even that. At least once in a while, show them a time when it could be your time, and you opt not too, just to be with her and no direct mention of dressing or anything TG related. In other words, don't always make them ask you for some time without "it"

My wife feels a sense of relief when I will remind her that I am not asking for or demanding her to like this aspect of me. I think that this can be an added pressure we may not fully understand.

Sometimes, just make light of it without serious discussion. Make fun of it, or yourself, but not in too condescending of a way. I always try to remember to say and in other ways show my appreciation for her acceptance. Appreciation in the fact that this is something a very large majority of women never have to deal with, and many who simply can not or would not accept.

[Greenie]

I agree there are always deviations. There are women who wont be able to handle the CD/Trans thing at all, no matter how much you communicate about it. But then you need to look at the fact that, you had been married for X amount of years and then "suprise!" I changed my identity. When a Cder or trans person changes their identity, if their SO does not therin want their identity changed as well, it doesn't matter how much you communicate. I am okay with lucas being a CDer, if he decided he needed to transition, I honestly could say that is something I would not be okay with, and no amount of conversation in the world could change the fact that I didn't want to be married to a trans woman. I think Ishas thread is CD specific though. So I will try to keep it to that.

[Marcelle]

Hi Greenie,

Yup it was more related to CDing but the same can applied to those who plan to transition or are not sure when they first come out. I did kind of touch on the subject near the end of my post in that "sometimes change is a bridge too far which the SO or CDer cannot cross" I think at this juncture the communication irrespective of how much effort you want to put into it, will break down. My wife and I have this conversation often as that is the bridge she will not cross. We would remain friends but our relationship as husband and wife would cease at that point . . . Nope, not planning to transition, we just like to cover our bases so we have a lot of "what if" conversations.

Hugs

Isha

[PaulaQ]

I am okay with lucas being a CDer, if he decided he needed to transition, I honestly could say that is something I would not be okay with, and no amount of conversation in the world could change the fact that I didn't want to be married to a trans woman.

One of the most surprising things I've learned about myself as a woman* was when I realized that I couldn't stay with a CD or MtF transitioning partner. I'd be nice about it, I hope, but long term it wouldn't work and I know that.

Of course the chances I'd get surprised by something like that are basically zero, so its not a fair comparison.

_{* assuming anyone thinks I'm actually a woman. Some weeks, like this last one, that seems doubtful.}

[Lorileah]

I have no interest in cricket either, doesn't mean I can't listen to someone who does. Maybe I am missing something I might like. But then i am one who believes you can never say you don't like something until you experience it. The point is that while I may not like it, I think having someone who is interested in it explain a little about it could at least give me an idea about why I would not like it.

This is the point I see Isha making. While it may not be their cup of tea (sorry, stuck on the cricket analogy), if they are part of your life you should at least let them make that decision, not you. If after hearing about or watching a match on television, or maybe even meeting a cricket team, they still don't then a DADT relationship is possible.

[Donnagirl]

Communication, education and importantly patience. It can work.... I've gone from an almost hateful and resentful DADT to my wife actively supporting me, accompanying me out to functions and sometimes more engrossed in the pink fog than I was...

[kimdl93]

very good stuff. I'd like to share a couple of my thoughts along the same vein. So many things extraneous to CDing can adversely impact on a marriage. If one knows the relationship is already under stress for other reasons, then it would be a very good idea to assess the state of the relationship and address these other factors first. Stabilize the base before you start adding to the load.

The other thing I'd add - Assume nothing. Ever. If uncertain, please take the time to ask your partner.