The difference between a CD and a TS

[PaulaQ]

After a few sessions of discussing my life and activities, my therapist didn't even question the fact that I'm pretty far toward the TS end of the spectrum. I spend way too much time enjoying life in the mainstream while presenting female to be considered anything else.

My conclusion is that there is no abrupt barrier between a CDer and a TS, but a vast middle ground that many of us are happily exploring.

Honey, all that electrolysis you've had done really ought to count as medical transition, and it would if our medical establishment cared about much of anything but dicks.

I know you won't entirely socially transition, or legally transition, but you are very far along the spectrum, and much closer to me, I suspect, than to some of the others here.

That said, one question I've never seen you address, is your identity. Do you identify as male, female, or have no strong identity, maybe just on the masculine side of the spectrum? (No need to answer - you don't owe me any explanation about who you are, just something to think about.)

Again, I hope I didn't stir the pot too much - far be it from me to label anyone else, and please do know I respect all of you.

[Claire Cook]

My conclusion is that there is no abrupt barrier between a CDer and a TS, but a vast middle ground that many of us are happily exploring.

Eryn,

Thank you for this. As much as I love and appreciate Paula and her posts (and admire her for what she has gone through), I would disagree with the black and white distinction between TS and CD. There is that gray area (no, not what I am trying to hide with my wigs!) where some (many?) of us fit in. I'm probably somewhere in that spectrum with you -- my chromosomes and my body tells me I'm male, but my soul tells me I am both -- that I am me. Deep down, I probably have always known that. Now I can embrace my totality.

[Krisi]

I misspoke yesterday. Where I said there was an event that triggered this feeling (of being transsexual), I should have said a "series of events".

[Ceera]

I would have to say it is definitely a three dimensional spectrum, with many different and not necessarily mutually exclusive states identifiable in it.

On one pair of axis, you have a scale of how much they identify as the other gender and wish to become the other gender, versus how much and how often they cross dress. On another axis is sexual orientation, and how they choose to express it. And that crosses all the groups below.

You have the crossdresser that does it for fun or to entertain, and still solidly identifies with their birth gender. A male cosplayer dressing up as an anime girl character, or an actor like Robin Williams playing the role of "Mrs. Doubtfire". They may not care if they are passing or not, or they may be quite passionately trying to appear to be the gender or role they want to present. But at the end of the day, when the makeup and wig and clothes come off, they remain their original gender.

You have the crossdressers that feel some sense of identity with the opposite gender, but still primarily identify with their birth gender. They may want to 'express their inner girl' and feel feminine (or masculine, for the FtM CD's), yet still have little desire to change who they are or to alter their bodies beyond maybe shaving or using an eppilator on their bodies, piercing ears, or, at the most extreme, getting electrolysis. Unlike the first group, a larger part of this group wants to be passing and accepted as their presentation gender. I find myself here in the spectrum. I feel I have a definite feminine side to my nature, but that my male side remains dominant. I'll even acknowledge that I've felt this way for most of my life, but suppressed it. Now I love expressing my feminine aspect, presenting as well and as believably as I am able, including trying for a feminine voice, and being accepted as female. But I seriously doubt that I would ever get my breasts enhanced or do hormone therapy, let alone seek a medical transition. Does acknowledging a feminine aspect to my mind make me "transgendered" - possibly, though I don't like using that term for myself, because I feel it is too often confused with transsexual, and I don't intend to transition.

You have transsexual individuals who feel much more in connection with the other gender than their birth gender, and feel a need to change their bodies to the other gender, either partially or completely. They feel their birth gender was 'wrong', at least to some degree, and want to correct that. I would agree with many of the others here that most of this group was born with that urge or need, even though they may have suppressed it early in their lives to fit in or survive. They may well start in the group above and later come to the conclusion that it isn't just 'for fun', but is 'who they really are'.

And then you have the drag queens (and FtM drag kings) - entertainers who are both cross dressers and often people willing to change their bodies at least in part to the other gender, and yet who usually are quite open about saying "You do realize we are guys in dresses, honey?". Often they are gay males who don't even try to alter their voices, and who definitely still consider themselves male, yet they are willing to get breast implants or go even further to present well as a female on stage. As a crossdresser in the second group above, I have a very hard time sometimes explaining to people that drag queens and cross dressers are not at all the same thing. I love watching their performances, but I wouldn't want to get on stage and present myself as a parody of a woman.

There are many reasons why we present as the opposite gender to our birth. Often we don't fully understand the need ourselves.

[sarahcsc]

Hi everyone,

I hate terminologies, but at the same time, understand the necessity for it too.

We need to be able to label something in order to do something about it (ie. treating it, studying it etc)

Crossdressing appears to be a symptom of an underlying cause which stems from numerous biological and psychological aetiologies.

It is like an itch that we need to scratch, except some of us scratch more depending on the underlying cause.

We could roughly divide the underlying cause to two broad groups that is "gender identity related" and "non-gender identity related". Persons in the latter group would probably fit best with Klaire Larnia's description of herself. Persons in the former group would probably fit best with PaulaQ's description of herself.

But none of these are static. And by saying that, I mean to say that people aren't always sure which group they belong to and some traverse across the groups over the course of time. In other words, perceptions change.

The next important question we need to ask is:

Can we label a person by virtue of what they do?

We can probably do so for opposite extremes of the spectrum such that you won't question that a person is TS when he/she has undergone SRS and living full time as their preferred gender, but it becomes a lot more ambiguous for persons falling short of that.

It all boils down to one word, and that is "context".

Believe it or not, people who have gender identity disorder, do not share the same priorities in life. In other words, some may choose to explore and express themselves while others simply occupy their time with something which they deem more meaningful and appropriate. This differs across cultures and age groups and it is ever changing. It is probably a misguided attempt to define people based on what they do, or even arrogant.

A crossdresser is not a crossdresser without the context in which he/she crossdresses. The same applies to a TS too.

And although I think it is a necessary evil to label someone in order to access health services, labeling also carries the risk of stifling any meaningful discussion about the topic.

So coming back to the original statement, "the difference between a CD and a TS"

Is there a difference? probably yes. But it is too complex to nail it down to a sentence or two... And it is ultimately up to us to decide for ourselves.

In order to access health services, I'd take on the label of TS without thinking twice. But when explaining to friends and family, I simply say I'm Sarah.

And if they can't or won't accept that, then I'll just move on.

Love,
Sarah

[Tina_gm]

While I would definitely never question someone who is TS on what being TS really is or means, how I view TG in general, personally goes something like this-

Cis gender people, are in a range of 80-20 or higher in relation to their birth gender. I believe at some point, everyone has some sort of cross gender expression or personality traits. At 80% though, and higher, they are so predominantly connected to their birth gender, there are no issues, desires, traits etc etc that frustrate them, and they fit in with society quite easily.

As someone begins or is below the 80% range, traits, personality issues, mannerisms, desires begin to manifest. CDing if often the most common, but not necessarily a pre req for being on the TG scale. CDing is just the easiest and quickly fulfilling way for cross gender expression. Although there are other issues that often correlate along with CDing. Behavior, likes and dislikes, mannerisms...

When on the TG scale someone is 80% or higher of cross gender, then that is likely where TS happens, or is. At that point, their core identity is solidly of the opposite of their birth gender.

I am not an expert on this, but I did sleep at a holiday in last night....

[Eryn]

That said, one question I've never seen you address, is your identity. Do you identify as male, female, or have no strong identity, maybe just on the masculine side of the spectrum?

That is a tough question and one that I hadn't thought much about. I don't, internally, have much of a gender sense. Externally, I identify as the gender I'm presenting. At work I am male, outside of work I am much more fluid.

I tend to associate my masculine side with being aggressive and competitive. My feminine side is cooperative and social. Of the two I prefer the cooperative and social aspect and like to associate with people who have the same leaning who are typically female.

Those who have truly crossed the Rubicon to being TS probably spend very little time thinking about their gender identity!

[AllieSF]

Eryn,

Your comparison of your masculine side personality traits with your feminine side ones brings up an interesting question for me. I am guessing that your masculine side has probably dominated most of your life, maybe until recently, whatever recently means in the way of physical time. Therefore, it has also probably been very important to you to make you and your life style who and what they are today, meaning you can now afford to live your life in a nice way because your male side, so to speak, with its male personality traits and privileges, helped you to get your jobs, to move up through your career thus providing the necessary funds to live and enjoy life. While you female side expresses itself more outside the male "provider" situation in family and social situations, in your non-work hours. The question, therefore, is, do you think you would be in the same place economically, and maybe even for your emotional and personal awareness and growth, if your more cooperative and social side was the dominant, and maybe only, side to your personality, especially in our historic male dominant wage earning world out there? Would you be able to enjoy your female side and life as you do today? Did one better facilitate the other? I am just curious to the possible causes and effects of one side in relation to the other.

In my case, I am probably a little further behind you on our wonderful spectrum, yet still more advanced along it than a lot of CD's out there. I too have invested heavily in electrology facial hair removal, let my hair grow out, epilate obvious other male body hair areas, pierced my ears for earrings, always have clear nail polish on my finger nails and many times colored polish on my toe nails, and am totally comfortable out in the real world being me as Allie with whomever I meet and interface with, i.e. I am way out of the closet regarding the real world and third parties, except for all those who know me originally in my male mode. However, for me, differing from you, I do not see two different sides to my personality traits. I have successfully avoided until recently ever thinking about what more is in store for me from that spectrum. I seem to be the same however dressed and presenting. I tend to be impatient with the same things where, even though I tried to be more patient, e.g. in heavy traffic with all its frustrations, but I always seem to return to my natural male ways and get upset sometimes. That maybe a little stereotypical meaning that women tend to be more patient than men, but that is the concept that I am trying to make. I am still the original me in most if not all daily situations from what I can tell.

[Tina_gm]

While there is still a truth that men earn more than women, that issue is shrinking by the day. Many women now earn very good money, and more and more businesses are making sure that pay is equal among gender. (strangely enough, it is liberal hollywood that is among most at fault with unequal pay....) So 30 years ago, definitely one could say that having male privilege as far as employment goes and a means to not advance further in gender issues, today, not nearly as much.

[Jeninus]

While there is still a truth that men earn more than women, that issue is shrinking by the day.

You may well be correct. But should that be widely recognized, the grievance industry would lose one of its showcase factories.

[Tina_gm]

Al Sharpton and Gloria Allred would be out of business, we can't have that....

[Tina_gm]

Those who have truly crossed the Rubicon to being TS probably spend very little time thinking about their gender identity!

I don't know about less time actually thinking about it. For them it is a constant issue in their lives. CDers can put it aside and deal with it at a later time. Perhaps pondering on who or what they really are is time less spent, but time spent on their identity in general must be extremely difficult as it is with them constantly, and until they transition or at least make a full acceptance of themselves, it must be excruciating.

[PaulaQ]

That is a tough question and one that I hadn't thought much about. I don't, internally, have much of a gender sense. Externally, I identify as the gender I'm presenting. At work I am male, outside of work I am much more fluid.

I can believe that you don't have a strong sense of gender. Here's a surprising thing to you - I do. How strong? Suppose someone (edit-threatened) me, and said "OK, no more girl stuff - this is nonsense. Go put your suit back on and be a freaking man, right now, or I will (edited), right here, on the spot." I'd fight that person to the death, rather than go back to being a man. I've talked to my boyfriend about this. He's the same way. If we find ourselves in some dystopian future where being transsexual is against the law, and they ban HRT, among other things, we would both do whatever we had to do, even if it wasn't nice, nor particularly legal, to keep ourselves healthy, and we'd do whatever we could to exit the country and go someplace better, or hide. We will never go back. This is a pretty radical way of feeling, I realize that. Some friends of mine are convinced that a more androgynous society would've eased my suffering. I know for a fact that it wouldn't have done that. I didn't attempt my own life in an endeavor to be mildly more feminine in presentation, or in my life. It was a powerful need within me - almost a physical need like a hunger. Anyway, it's a really strong feeling.

So I suspect that neither you, nor AllieSF, nor any number of others here can relate to such feelings at all! In fact, I bet such feelings seem perhaps crazy to you, but I can assure you they are quite real. Despite that, I know personally several other women who are in transition, on HRT, who'd just put on the damned suit, and somehow conform until they could get to a better situation. They'd survive it, I wouldn't.

I tend to associate my masculine side with being aggressive and competitive. My feminine side is cooperative and social. Of the two I prefer the cooperative and social aspect and like to associate with people who have the same leaning who are typically female.

Hey, it might be an interesting academic exercise, or perhaps one you need to do someday, to figure out if you are more male identified or female identified. However, nothing says you can't be both, or even neither. Far be it from me to define who you are. (I know I kind of did that in this thread - I wanted to provoke a bit of a discussion, and I sure got one!)

Personally, what most people think of, when you say "transition", is sort of a recipe of:
- medical transition - HRT, maybe surgeries
- social transition - you live fulltime
- legal transition - name & gender change
At the end of this process, you are a woman. That's all well and good - but only if you really happen to be a woman inside of your mind. The thing about the above is it was really designed for someone like me, for the most part. But my story, and yours, don't sound much alike, do they? In fact, they are radically different, so it's probably just right that you aren't doing the same things I'm doing. Unfortunately, the medical community hasn't caught up to this, really, so "transition" is sort of a one size fits all. In a lot of ways, I'd argue that you have gone through a kind of transition. I mean, you presumably weren't always so open in your cross gender presentation. You have friends as Eryn now. You do things socially that perhaps in times past seem unimaginable. You've gone through hair removal - a not insignificant transition procedure, btw. Maybe that's all you ever do. That's fine, really, as long as you are happy and well adjusted, why would you need to do more than that? Well you just wouldn't.

In some ways, it might be better to define this in terms of our brain structures, if we could scan them and see it, and see which of us have feminine structure, and which have masculine brain structure. Or perhaps responding well emotionally to HRT is a reasonable acid test for who's really a woman, and who isn't. (Or vice-versa for the FtM's.) However, since the medical establishment has largely abdicated it's responsibility for our care for the past 50 years, it'd be a cold day in hell before I trusted them to tell me who I am. And anyway, I don't need them to - I already know. For that matter, it sounds like you do too - you seem just fine as you are.

[Tina_gm]

Paula, I am going throw something out in terms of circumstance and when I do this, I am not in any way attempting to be demeaning of you or anyone else. If a Cis Gender woman who was a mother of a child was to be given an ultimatum that she become a man in order for her child to not suffer unimaginably, she would do so without hesitation. She herself might suffer unimaginably by identity issues, but she would rather it be her than her child.

Now take a 30 year old who went through a similar tidal wave as you have, and discover or accept their true identity. They have a child, or children who would be completely devastated by a transition. (especially in a rural community) In an almost feminine aspect, the would be transitioner will delay if not forgo transitioning completely for their children.

When you were younger, with children perhaps it might have been different. Different because then you had lives depended on you. you had a greater cause than your own. I believe that is why we see people transitioning at either a very young age, or in midlife. Before or after such circumstances occur. ( I know there are stories of transition and family acceptance in the middle of it all) but those are far rarer than those who transition during this time and the end result being total devastation of the family.

I honestly believe that is why we see so many 40+ y/o members who are coming back into CDing after decades of absence. It is not the only reason, I believe there are many, both for CD and TS, but that is definitely among the bigger ones.

[PaulaQ]

Now take a 30 year old who went through a similar tidal wave as you have, and discover or accept their true identity. They have a child, or children who would be completely devastated by a transition. (especially in a rural community) In an almost feminine aspect, the would be transitioner will delay if not forgo transitioning completely for their children.

25 years ago, when my son was very young, I was in Dallas, and I definitely buried my gender stuff as best I could, manned up, and married my poor ex-wife. Knowing what I know now? I'd have transitioned. I'm surprised I survived.

What I hate is that I have the only medical condition (gender dysphoria) for which treatment is considered selfish. If I had bone marrow cancer, nobody would have told me "gee, you know "<boyname>", it's gonna cost a lot to treat you, even with insurance. You are going to leave your family impoverished. If you just die instead of seeking treatment, between the money you have left over, and your life insurance, your family will be in pretty good shape!" With this stuff though, it's like "quit it or die already!"

( I know there are stories of transition and family acceptance in the middle of it all) but those are far rarer than those who transition during this time and the end result being total devastation of the family.

Actually what happens most of the time is just a divorce. That's it. A lot of divorces happen, and kids survive them mostly OK. This isn't really any different than any of the other reasons people get divorced. It's not a good reason to not transition if that's what needs to happen. And in my case, it really needed to have happened. It didn't, and I got through it, so I guess that's fine. Knowing how bad this was for me though, I really am surprised I didn't commit suicide sometime during that long, long interval as a guy. I was coming apart at the seams.

Anyway, I manned up as best I could, and tried to be a dad, just like a lot of us do. I sucked as a father, although I hope that I was an OK parent. I was at least a lot better than my own father, but that is a very, very low standard. (I was present, cared, and was sober - none of which could be said about my own Dad.)

But sure, I can relate to what you are saying, and there's no doubt that a lot of us forgo dealing with this stuff until we simply can't take it anymore, in order to save the family. Had my crisis hit a decade earlier, when my kids were still minors in high school, and I'd ended my life, I wonder if they'd have thanked me for trying? Probably not. I was so, so foolish.

[kimdl93]

After 39 comments, the difference, the bright fluorescent line distinguishing (not dividing) TS from the rest of the TG spectrum is the point of knowing with certainty and clarity that one identifies as a woman and possessing the compelling need to live as a woman. If someone cannot make that clear distinction they probably are not TS.

No other point on the transgender spectrum is so clearly differentiated. (and regardless of how individuals may choose to define themselves, CDing is part of the transgender spectrum)

[PaulaQ]

the difference, the bright fluorescent line distinguishing (not dividing) TS from the rest of the TG spectrum is the point of knowing with certainty and clarity that one identifies as a woman and possessing the compelling need to live as a woman. If someone cannot make that clear distinction they probably are not TS.

Yes, that's really the dividing line, in my opinion as well. It is the need to live fulltime as the gender opposite their assigned at birth sex.

I do think it's arguable that needing hormone therapy to achieve mental / hormonal congruence is a very, very strong indicator as well. (This shouldn't be the dividing line socially, however, there are individuals who might be greatly helped by hormone therapy, but who can't take it for other, unrelated health reasons.) If cross sex hormones make you feel worse, an argument can be made that you probably aren't a transsexual. However, given the uncertainty of the science behind all of this, I wouldn't take it as gospel.

[Jessicajane]

the difference is 5 years...on average...!!

[flatlander_48]

Folks have said the same thing about bisexuals and that was also B/S...

DeeAnn

[Katey888]

the difference is 5 years...on average...!!

Yeah, right - twaddle... Otherwise we wouldn't have so many oldie members here would we...?

Good discussion Paula and everyone... If we thought TG was just too broad a descriptor then CD probably is as well. What am I taking away from all this..?

What makes a CD? A huge plethora of motivations, reasons, feelings, environments and emotions - all with some underlying gender quirk, IMHO, but many, many more individual elements that for me, explain why we have such different behaviours.

And what's the difference with someone who is TS? A TS is always the right mind gender in the wrong physical gender. I see them as binary as the cis-world, just in that conflicting way.

TG/CD folk, on the other hand, I now begin to see as birds of a very different feather.... Which goes some way to explaining why perhaps we struggle to see eye-to-eye with transsexual folk all the time.

Katey x

[Dana44]

That also bodes the question of why we may do this. Funky, why do I ever want to dress as a female? I don't quite know, yet I would not like to be a full time woman. I being a half/half hormonally all of my life, I find that my life as a male was pretty darn good. I was able to be a leader in activities and have accomplished an awful lot being a male. So why? Well, I think that I'm trying to get in touch with my feminine side. I'm not very feminine. I think it is nice to try though. I have complemented my SO on the fact that she dresses as feminine as I do when we go out. I really appreciate that and it makes it fun to be two girls going out. I would classify this as a CD, it is not something strange as gender identification.

[Lorileah]

I can believe that you don't have a strong sense of gender.

Really? I thoink a lot of people go a long time with out making a distinction as to their gender

So I suspect that neither you, nor AllieSF, nor any number of others here can relate to such feelings at all!

so they don't have a strong feeling of gender...or they are male and don't understand what TSs feel?

In fact, I bet such feelings seem perhaps crazy to you, but I can assure you they are quite real.

isn't that what Eryn said? She didn't have a sharp gender line?

Personally, what most people think of, when you say "transition", is sort of a recipe of:
- medical transition - HRT, maybe surgeries
- social transition - you live fulltime
- legal transition - name & gender change

I did something wrong here I did all of them at virtually the same time (exc surgery).

I do think it's arguable that needing hormone therapy to achieve mental / hormonal congruence is a very, very strong indicator as well.

I could have reached that nirvana without, but it was nice to have. When I started estrogen, I didn't notice any real behavioral changes. I joke about the drop in levels if I miss a dose or at the end of the cycle, but other than physical changes I am still pretty much as I was. Why because I was a woman in my mind, the hormones are just tools. Maybe I am the odd one here. Now about the brain scan we don't really have that technology yet to be that specific. The medical community didn't abandon us, it was just that strokes and seizures and aberrant behaviors are far more common. But consider this, IF they did find a physical reason (i.e. brain structure) that showed that "we" had brains like a genetic woman...so what? Does that mean every TS needs that to qualify? Is it something that will advance our cause? Or is it something that will be used against us...another reason to discriminate? Will it used to "fix" us...maybe surgery to correct our brains? I don't think that at this time we need to delve that deeply. You, I understand, would like that for confirmation. Me...I already know who I am. I don't need no lousy brain scan.

[Chrissi]

Thank you...I've never felt that I am either a man or a woman. But freely admit that both have distinct advantages and disadvantages. We all know what those are. As I get older and less concerned about how others view me, I find myself wanting to live and living more toward the female side.

Unfortunately this sort of discussion tends to turn divisive. I hope that everyone can keep it constructive and recognize that we are all different.

Many of us live on the middle ground while we determine where our true path lies. We don't assert simplistically "I'm a man" or "I'm a woman." In my case, I'm me, Eryn, who has been trying to express herself as she wishes all her life.

After a few sessions of discussing my life and activities, my therapist didn't even question the fact that I'm pretty far toward the TS end of the spectrum. I spend way too much time enjoying life in the mainstream while presenting female to be considered anything else.

My conclusion is that there is no abrupt barrier between a CDer and a TS, but a vast middle ground that many of us are happily exploring.

[PaulaQ]

Really? I thoink a lot of people go a long time with out making a distinction as to their gender

What makes you say that? If nothing else, social pressure to be one or the other used to be fairly intense. I can't say what that's like now, for kids in school, but when I was in school, there was a lot of pressure about this - it was conflated with sexual orientation, of course.

But hey look - I'm not cis. Maybe if your gender and assigned at birth sex line up, you don't ever think about this. I suspect though that some people do, some don't. I'd think most do, to some limited extent that it happens implicitly in their minds. I can totally believe that for some it's stronger than others. But I really have no way to know. I do note that it's rare, outside of the TG community, to see people alternate gender presentations on a regular basis. We don't really know how much of all this is learned, and how much of it is instinctual. I suspect it's some of both, with the bulk of it being learned.

I did something wrong here I did all of them at virtually the same time (exc surgery).

There's no right or wrong in general, just what's right or wrong for an individual, in my opinion. I didn't mean to write a prescription - just sort of listed some of the general things trans people do. I'm sorry if it came across as implying someone did it wrong. I don't really think "wrong" is an option unless a person is one of the rather rare cases where someone transitions, and then feels much worse dysphoria after.

When I started estrogen, I didn't notice any real behavioral changes. I joke about the drop in levels if I miss a dose or at the end of the cycle, but other than physical changes I am still pretty much as I was. Why because I was a woman in my mind, the hormones are just tools. Maybe I am the odd one here.

No, you are not the odd one here. Both outcomes are commonly reported. Yours is probably the more common one. I have no idea why such a difference exists. I don't think it's significant to the issue of "is or isn't" someone TS. I think the only really significant issue is if cross-sex hormones actually increase your dysphoria, you may not be TS. But look, there are a number of pretty complex things at play here that aren't well understood, so I wouldn't bet the farm on any of this.

The medical community didn't abandon us, it was just that strokes and seizures and aberrant behaviors are far more common. ... But consider this, IF they did find a physical reason (i.e. brain structure) that showed that "we" had brains like a genetic woman...so what? Does that mean every TS needs that to qualify?

I'm sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this first point - it isn't so much about brain scans. But the medical community at large has turned its back on the trans community for decades. There are exceptions, and I have no doubt some places are better than others, and it's improving - for example Children's Medical here in Dallas now has a treatment program for transgender youth.

I did say that even if they did discover relatively reliable ways to differentiate what was going on in our brains, it would certainly take me a long time to trust the medical establishment again. The main use of such a test would be for children who are showing signs of transsexualism, so that skeptical parents would be more likely to allow treatment.

Ultimately, though, the individual should be able to define themselves. I'd simply like to see better methods to help guide people to the best medical care for their specific issues. For example, I have some questions whether treatments developed for TS individuals are always the best choice for people who are, for example, gender queer. Keep in mind when this stuff was developed, a trans woman was expected to be:
- hyper feminine
- straight
- fairly passable to begin with
None of those are even remotely required anymore, nor should they be. But that was the starting point for a lot of this stuff - a very binary view of gender.

I don't want to deny anyone access to anything, nor be a gate keeper. I just hate to think of people trying all sorts of things in order to feel better, failing to feel better, and really having nothing to help them make any kind of an informed decision along the way, particularly if their sense of gender doesn't happen to be extremely strong in one direction or the other.

Anyway, my apologies if any of this, or any of the prior stuff in the thread came across as argumentative. That wasn't my intention at all.

And what's the difference with someone who is TS? A TS is always the right mind gender in the wrong physical gender. I see them as binary as the cis-world, just in that conflicting way.

It's really a spectrum with us, too. There are some of us with really strong gender identities. There are some of us with fairly weak gender identities. I guess the difference is for a TS our gender dysphoria is serious enough that we have to do something about it, while a CD really doesn't, other than present in a cross gender manner periodically.

[pamela7]

Maybe if your gender and assigned at birth sex line up, you don't ever think about this. I suspect though that some people do, some don't. I'd think most do, to some limited extent that it happens implicitly in their minds.

Hi Paula and Lorileah,

I reckon most people don't think about it, for many reasons:

1. most folk don't get philosophical and ask such questions
2. it is assumed by most people they are the gender of their body, and this thought is rarely/never challenged (by a non-CD/TS person)
3. most people don't even comes across a TG/TS person to even read any literature to even know that there's a person out there with a female self inside a male body - or vice versa.

Until I exploded in my own CD life I did not question, and trust me I question almost everything. Now I am cursed by the question!

As a human being we tend to believe everyone else around sees/feels/thinks about the world the same way, we rarely wonder what's going on in someone else's head, and can be hugely surprised. Here in our broad spectrum-demographic of CD life we have massive variety. In the autistic spectrum we also have a diversity hugely larger than the "normal" spectrum, and I find the same with the "dyslexic" world.

We are hugely diverse as a species, in fact we are as diverse as nature on this planet. The medical world only sees a problem if someone is not functional in the money-generating side of life - i.e. "they need an op in order to get back on the horse". While I could go on about how sick that is, I'll not deviate. The point is: unless its a problem interfering with the smooth flow of money to the top, they don't give a s**t.

99.999% of non-CD-TG-TS people do not think about their gender, IMHO.

xxx Pamela