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Thread: Why so many more MTF, than FTM dressers, and TS?

  1. #26
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    I think the reasons are almost entirely cultural in nature:
    1. FtM TS's are quite invisible. Indeed invisible to the point where it's a serious problem for them in many vital areas, such as healthcare. This invisibility contributes to having even worse statistics about them than we do about MtFs. We just don't know. There are some statistics that suggest for people who transition the numbers are about even, but in my area, the ratio is about 3:1 MtF's to FtM's.
    2. It's more or less not possible for someone assigned female at birth to crossdress. It just isn't. It generally takes a lot of effort to pass as a man, for most FAAB, at least until the ones who transition have been on T for a while. Most people, observing the FtM, won't even realize that they are even trying to pass as a man. On the other hand, for comparison, put a guy in a dress, send him walking down the street, and everyone knows something's going on with him.
    3. Women emulating masculinity in some ways has been a part of feminism since the 70's, and is required, really, to compete in many workplaces.
    4. A FTM can, because of the relatively high degree of cultural freedom to express their gender that women have, discover "OMG - I've been actually living as a man for years! I - I guess I am one!" In my experience very few MtF's have this experience. The ones who do are generally CDs in unusually accepting situations socially, relationships, employment, etc. (Betty Crow is an example of this in some ways, I think.)

    @Alice Torn:
    Trust me, it's not about men feeling "obsolete." The guys who run things feel large and in charge, I can assure you of that.
    I'm sorry you don't feel like much of a man. Have you ever considered that you may well not be one at all?

    At the idea that FtM's somehow have it easier. I don't buy this. It's different because of physical medicine and social constraints. On the one hand, T does a lot for many FtM's - hair, voice, physical appearance. This is more than what estradiol does for MtF's. On the other hand, the options for bottom surgery are much better developed for MtF's, than FtM's. I mean much better developed that many FtM's choose not to have surgery not because they don't need it - but because the 40% chance that they'll never have another orgasm again after they have it dissuades them. (Well that, and the $100K+ price tag that some of the surgical options require is simply totally beyond their financial means.)

    Can you imagine, in our culture, how hard it must be, psychologically, to be just one hell of a man, but to have no penis to speak of, or a very, very, very small one, coupled with a vagina? Look - what I have between my legs freaks me the hell out. It's wrong, and I have nightmares about it. It doesn't define me as a woman though.

    There is a lot less emphasis placed on the attributes associated with a woman's genitals than with a man's. Basically, if we have one, we're golden. This isn't entirely true, as any woman who can't conceive a child will attest. It's also different in that society feels it has a proprietary interest in controlling what we do with our vaginas - whereas for men, telling them what to do with their dicks will almost certainly send most dudes to war. In our culture, in many ways, for men, it's all about the dick. (I think this has to be even worse for the FtM's who identify as gay men. My god, I can't even imagine some of the things they must experience, because if you think straight men objectify women, you ain't seen nothin' till you've watched a gay man objectify another man.)

  2. #27
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    PaulaQ, I would rather have been a girl, yes. At this point, though, because of my religious laws, and situation, with low fixed income, and hard work, I could not consider transitioning. My family and life has been agony, but I know i don't have that long to live in this veil of tears. Well, I have always admired many women, and i always felt like my maleness is bad, especially because so many brutes have used sex harshly on women. I never have had sex in my life, because of male organ shame, and the gross misuse of sex on women. I have looked at every side of equal pay, and it really is quite close now. Let us s top beating each other up, and insulting each other. Live and let live. I know western society goes from one side of the road to the other, though. And, i guess some of us will have to agree to disagree, on a lot of this. I have known so many bachelors, with very low self esteem, and some became addicts, and some took their lives, because of being loners, unwanted, and unloved. I dress in a large part of being a veteran, who is 60, never had sex, admires women and their dress, nor girlfriend for decades, other than acquaintences. I won't have sex with one, partly because i would wait until wedded, and partly because the woman would have to take the lead, as i have male shame, and am do not want to be a predator, or aggressive. But living alone and single may be best for me and all my tormented siblings, too. I like solitude, with my cats, and occasional dressup. Would have liked to have been born female completely sometimes, yes, but my reality, and circumstances , oh well. On this site, there are definitely more MTF dressers, than FTM, but maybe out in public, more the opposite.
    Last edited by Alice Torn; 04-12-2015 at 09:30 AM.

  3. #28
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    I am going to agree with what the various moderators have said. There are PLENTY of FTM's out there. The following study:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4299544/

    is a GOOD quality peer reviewed study of transgender individuals in Ontario, Canada, where there were MORE FTM respondents than MTF (227 FTM vs 205 MTF). So the original premise is false.

    It is concerning that FTM do not feel included in these forums. Perhaps they see the forum as less about gender and more about "crossdressing"? Don't know. Whilst there is NO indication that it is easier for an FTM to be accepted socially there is evidence that someone who identifies as FTM is far more likely to describe themselves as "genderqueer" than someone who identifies as MTF. Maybe a "genderqueer" forum would have more FTM's present. Personally I think it is a terrible shame that we do not have more FTM members as I think they provide a fascinating perspective "from the other side of the fence" so to speak.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tammy12 View Post
    One aspect is that Mothers take more of an early role in child raising than the Father. This gives the Mother more opportunity for influence, if she chooses.
    Uh, nope. Women have traditionally raised the kids. When most of us here were being raised, that number was close to 100%. Given the very small number of cross dressers suspected, your theory does not hold water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianne S View Post
    There are far more MtF cross-dressers because wearing men's clothes usually does nothing for women. ...
    Nope. Female clothing does nothing for non-CD women. Just like male clothing does nothing for non-CD men. For a woman who was FtM, the male clothes would be equal in imporantce as they are to us MtF cross dressers.

    Quote Originally Posted by audreyinalbany View Post
    maybe its because women are attractive and men are not…. (well, to me anyway)
    That's a big swing and a miss.

  5. #30
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    I am a Trans member that will say FTM do have an easier time crossdressing in the world than the MTF. Lets face it as a woman go and cut your hair short, throw on a T-shirt a male pair of jeans, tennis shoes, male coat and your just an un feminine woman. The FTM can still use the female washrooms without causing a national riot etc.... Hell I grew my hair long in the mid 80's still wore all male clothes back in the day and people had 40 fits over it. Just look at this video and tell me that people will generally not bat an eye if they see a woman like this but holy crow if it was a male doing the opposite we'd have a huge problem!

    Now I will say the "playing field" is very level if we're talking about the TS then its hard for the FTM folks get hair growth, muscle, skeletal structure, voice, getting an Adams apple etc.... Then its just as hard for any TS to get everything they need.

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    Last edited by Launa; 04-11-2015 at 11:19 PM.

  6. #31
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    The exodus would have to have happened since July, 2013 in the context of the forum.
    because....? The exodus as you call it happened about 4 years ago when the FtM forum went from a handful to one



    Sorry, Apples and Oranges...
    in what context. You can't throw that out and not back it up. What do the CDs discuss here? Anything a FtM would want to discuss? Panties...clothes....make up...? Why would a FtM want to be part of this? When ever they did give any opinion they were usually silenced by the membership NOT the staff ( I am still friends with several who aren't here anymore...we rarely discuss underwear). But I can ask them why they won't play in this sand box anymore So what, in your mind is the reason MtFs are less here (and not really in real life and don't give me that stuff about a woman can look like a man and no one cares...)





    As a bisexual, I have often heard that we are in perpetual stealth mode as we don't appear any different from anyone else.
    No clue what a bisexual in the wild would look like....umm..do they look different when they aren't in "Stealth mode" Being Bi doesn't really have a physical visual state...does it? So that statement is a weasel at best..a deflection. Sort of like saying "choose a side"
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  7. #32
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    "Have you ever considered that you may well not be one at all?"
    this is an odd thing to say to or about Alice Torn.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Launa View Post
    I am a Trans member that will say FTM do have an easier time crossdressing in the world than the MTF. Lets face it as a woman go and cut your hair short, throw on a T-shirt a male pair of jeans, tennis shoes, male coat and your just an un feminine woman. The FTM can still use the female washrooms without causing a national riot etc.... Hell I grew my hair long in the mid 80's still wore all male clothes back in the day and people had 40 fits over it. Just look at this video and tell me that people will generally not bat an eye if they see a woman like this but holy crow if it was a male doing the opposite we'd have a huge problem!

    Now I will say the "playing field" is very level if we're talking about the TS then its hard for the FTM folks get hair growth, muscle, skeletal structure, voice, getting an Adams apple etc.... Then its just as hard for any TS to get everything they need.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwII...yer_detailpage
    This is where the problem lies, this is full of insults and you probably don't even realise it.
    First off, let's insult the GGs, so short hair and jeans and trainers means you have no femininity?
    Why do so many people think femininity is directly linked to a hemline?

    Secondly the FTM, what if they want to be seen as a man, use male toilets and not just be considered an unfeminine woman?
    For them it's really hard to be treated like a man and they can't even get respect here.
    MtF crossdressers call themselves girls, honey etc etc despite identifying as male and just being in it for the clothes. But you can't extend the same courtesy to FtM TS that do identity as men.

  9. #34
    ADMINISTRATOR Sandra's Avatar
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    Well said Becky...but I fear it will just fall on deaf ears as it has done on the past.
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    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    But you can't extend the same courtesy to FtM TS that do identity as men.
    Becky but Launa did differentiate between the FtM TS in her last paragraph. I thought this topic was about why there are more MtF dressers then FtM cross dressers. Maybe the question should be why there are more part-time(casual) MtF cross dressers then part-time(casual) FtM crossdressers. Only thing I can think of is females already broke those barriers of wearing what they want long time ago. This is not true for genetic males yet but maybe will change in future. Make up, high heels, lace, nail polish ect are all perfectly okay for genetic girls to wear or not wear as they please but not so much for genetic males. I agree that the use of feminine and femineity get used inappropriately quite a bit in this forum but you must realise that not everyone cross dresses for same reasons.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandra View Post
    We didn't fail to create a safe and friendly environment for the FtMs, but some of the cders just couldn't help but having ago at them, the staff enforced rules when things got out of hand but in the end the FtMs just had enough. I am not criticising the community I am stating a fact, if fact if you read my post again that you quoted I said SOME not the whole community please get your facts right when replying. You just need to think all this happened before you joined and you didn't see what went off. As for you comment about criticising staff, staff accept constructive criticism but it will not be aired on the main forum.
    Fair enough. If the FTM members had problems with some members, it's really not that surprising it's a group of CDs, considering CDs is by far the largest group here, but all I want to say is that it doesn't say much about CDs in general. If any group of people on this forum is going to drive me off it probably is a specific group of CDs as well and I'm a CD myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rianna Humble View Post
    Could your words stem from a guilty conscience?
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  12. #37
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    Alice,
    Last time I made this reply some called it bunk, but I still feel it makes some sense !
    The fact that we are conceived as neutral gender but very soon the female line develops as a natural progression and males are deviated at some point in the foetal stage . So males tend to carry various degrees of gender, more so than females ! All we have to do naturally is fertilise women, how we achieve those ends does depend very much on our background influences !
    Maybe I'm speaking more now from my personal circumstances, but the early interest in girls and certain clothes that turned me on enough to have an involuntary orgasm! This hardwired my preferences in achieving my designated role as a male !
    Male development is more deviant than female, you get far more gender confusion in males, so many aspects show a higher percentage than females !

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    because....? The exodus as you call it happened about 4 years ago when the FtM forum went from a handful to one
    There was a comment about Z possibly having a guilty conscience. But, she's only been a member here since 2013 and the timing of the exodus was 4 years ago. In the context of this forum, Z couldn't have a guilty conscience over anything that happened here as she wasn't around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    in what context. You can't throw that out and not back it up. What do the CDs discuss here? Anything a FtM would want to discuss? Panties...clothes....make up...? Why would a FtM want to be part of this? When ever they did give any opinion they were usually silenced by the membership NOT the staff ( I am still friends with several who aren't here anymore...we rarely discuss underwear). But I can ask them why they won't play in this sand box anymore So what, in your mind is the reason MtFs are less here (and not really in real life and don't give me that stuff about a woman can look like a man and no one cares...)
    It's Apples and Oranges in the sense that needs, goals and interests of F2M and M2F crossdressers may not be as well aligned as we might think. It isn't exactly different sides of the same coin. I would think that some facets are common, such as family isues and reactions. Clearly there would be no need for a F2M to discuss female clothes and makeup. Conversely, I would doubt if M2F crossdressers would have muchinterest in discussing male clthes. As it sits, there is a lot of discussion here devoted to the notion of passing or not. I don't see that this as a major topic for F2M's as the bar is MUCH lower.

    From what you say, F2M members were never a large population here. I suspect that faced with the reality that the majority of threads here considered crossdressing from a MALE perspective, thee wasn't much space left over to consider things from a FEMALE perspective. In other words, the forum is a victim of its own success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    No clue what a bisexual in the wild would look like....umm..do they look different when they aren't in "Stealth mode" Being Bi doesn't really have a physical visual state...does it? So that statement is a weasel at best..a deflection. Sort of like saying "choose a side"
    The concept is the same. Even though a statement may be uncomfortable, that does not change the reality and the inherent truth.

    And no, Choose A Side is very different. That isn't based in reality and it doesn't reflect reality. It's just somebody verbalizing their distress. Metaphorically, it could be put down to Misery Loves Company.

    DeeAnn
    Last edited by flatlander_48; 04-12-2015 at 07:15 AM.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    From what you say, F2M members were never a large population here. I suspect that faced with the reality that the majority of threads here considered crossdressing from a MALE perspective, thee wasn't much space left over to consider things from a FEMALE perspective. In other words, the forum is a victim of its own success.

    DeeAnn
    The FtMs on this site did not identify as female, so would not identify as crossdressers themselves, that "label" was placed upon them by SOME members of the M2F community. They had their own private forum, just as the M2F transsexuals have, but as has previously been stated in this thread, they were slammed if they stepped out of it into the wider crossdressing community.

    Whilst I would suspect there are some F2M crossdressers, those on this forum identified as F2M transsexuals.
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    Most likely only FtM TS would visit here and they should be treated as men, no question.
    FtM crossdressers are usually called tomboys and have no real need to come here.
    Before anyone says how easy it is for them, it wasn't.
    Women have and still are treated secondary, like sexual objects or a possession.
    They chained themselves to railings and fought hard for their rights, how do you think the first women that dared to wear men's trousers were treated?

    Women have done their bit to freely crossdress should they wish.
    Question is, instead of bitching how easy they have it, what are you doing to stand up for MtF crossdressers rights?
    So many people safely in their closets moaning about what women can wear, what's stopping you? Cause it's the same thing that stopped them and they still did it.

    Also on a side note their is probably much less actual FtM crossdressers that get a kick out of the clothes, simply because how strong testosterone can be in the sexualised aspect so very common in MtF crossdressers. Before there is a tirade of "It's not sexual", just look how many are into the sexualized image of a woman, high heels, stockings, red nails, short skirts, tight clothes etc etc.
    This is not wanting to dress like a woman, this is like dressing as the sexy female image that turns you on.
    (This is not aimed at everyone of course, I know many of you dress accordingly).
    Last edited by becky77; 04-12-2015 at 08:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Before there is a tirade of "It's not sexual", just look how many are into the sexualized image of a woman, high heels, stockings, red nails, short skirts, tight clothes etc etc.
    This is not wanting to dress like a woman, this is like dressing as the sexy female image that turns you on.
    This aspect is quite downplayed if not denied, I must admit. Sure, for many of this subset it may be an identity issue, but there has to be some degree of sexual overlap in striving to look like a "hot girl". There's likely a form of erotic intent.

    In terms of the mechanical act of wearing the clothes of the opposite gender: Granted, much of modern 'male' clothing may be unisex, while hemlines and necklines also possess some degree of female exclusivity. Probably where the greater number of opinions on MtF cross-dressing, judged largely as a genetic male presenting as female, come from. After all, we tend to judge ourselves as we think and others as they do.
    Last edited by Lily Catherine; 04-15-2015 at 06:46 AM.

  17. #42
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    I wondered about "weighing in" here, me being M2F CD and my SO being onsite too. My stepdaughter (18) and her/his (please excuse gender-defining words here) girl/boyfriend (also 18) have been "an item" since they were 14. They define themselves as F2M TS, with the friend intent on SRS, but with our daughter presently settled with her body as it is, tho not ruling out SRS at some future date. It's a long, long time since she told her mum she wanted to be a boy, and since then she always xdressed in male attire (except panties cos they feel nicer to her, and a bra (to flatten her chest)).

    Here's the thing: they behave, speak, act, laugh, play, talk (in my opinion) like a pair of girls - it's like they're playing at being male, cos the behaviour is not hardwired male in a female body. I used to joke about it, not realising my own nature.

    But here's the thing - are we mostly guys playing at being girls, doing it all in a man-like way?

    So, to the point of the thread - you just don't notice the F2M's, cos they wear clothing that women can get away with, and they can look young-faced enough to explain the lack of beard - mean they get asked for ID all the time in shops or bars. It's not such a big deal for society, because passing is relatively easy f2m.

    The next aspect is, yes, they're TS more than CD, cos they're experiencing life as a male in a female body, albeit that's conceptually not behaviorally. Any woman can CD into male clothes and no-one notices, its not a problem in society. And that's why we're mostly GM here.

    that's my ha'penn'orth, argue away ...

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    For those that haven't, get out in your community and talk with some FTM, befriend them and understand their issues (with all appropriate courtesies applied). I have one friend that is always referred to as she because there is no amount of binding that makes his chest minimal enough. I have never heard that problem with someone's "package". Another friend was harassed in the bathroom because regular use of a stall instead of a urinal outed him. As Paula says, their bottom surgery options suck and I will add the top has quite a ways to go too between the scarring and overall appearance. No, they don't just throw on a flannel shirt and jeans and cut their hair short to make everything well. One thing I can say is I talk support with more MTFs, which may be a side effect of my continued involvement in Tri-Ess. But when it comes to community meeting, events, getting things done; I believe we tend to see just as many, if more, FTMs in this area. Don't underestimate their numbers or their needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigella View Post
    The FtMs on this site did not identify as female, so would not identify as crossdressers themselves, that "label" was placed upon them by SOME members of the M2F community. They had their own private forum, just as the M2F transsexuals have, but as has previously been stated in this thread, they were slammed if they stepped out of it into the wider crossdressing community.

    Whilst I would suspect there are some F2M crossdressers, those on this forum identified as F2M transsexuals.
    Yes, there are distinct differences and I think the discussion has blurred a bit because we have bounced back and forth between F2M crossdressers and transsexuals. And as I said, for F2M and M2F crossdressers it isn't exactly 2 sides of the same coin.

    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Most likely only FtM TS would visit here and they should be treated as men, no question.
    FtM crossdressers are usually called tomboys and have no real need to come here.
    No, I think they would. They would come for some similar reasons as M2F: comraderie, dealing with family issues, work issues, etc. On the other hand, there would be some distinct differences, such as perceptions of society at large directed at them and even finding appropriate clothing (due to size considerations). I suspect that they would get the flip-side of the question that we get: Are you a Lesbian?

    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Before anyone says how easy it is for them, it wasn't.
    Women have and still are treated secondary, like sexual objects or a possession.
    They chained themselves to railings and fought hard for their rights, how do you think the first women that dared to wear men's trousers were treated?
    Last 2 paragraphs of Post #22...

    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Women have done their bit to freely crossdress should they wish.
    Question is, instead of bitching how easy they have it, what are you doing to stand up for MtF crossdressers rights?
    So many people safely in their closets moaning about what women can wear, what's stopping you? Cause it's the same thing that stopped them and they still did it.
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I have begun to go out dressed more frequently in recent times. Things have been headed in that direction for some time and now it is beginning to happen. The umbrella of transgender seems to fit quite nicely.

    And, as of last October I have been an active member of our LBGT employee affinity group for 11 years. Overall, I've been active in other affinity groups for 20 years and a former president of one for 3 years. Fairness and equality for ALL is very important to me as over my nearly 43 year career, I've had unfairness visited upon me and also have been in a position to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Also on a side note their is probably much less actual FtM crossdressers that get a kick out of the clothes, simply because how strong testosterone can be in the sexualised aspect so very common in MtF crossdressers. Before there is a tirade of "It's not sexual", just look how many are into the sexualized image of a woman, high heels, stockings, red nails, short skirts, tight clothes etc etc.
    This is not wanting to dress like a woman, this is like dressing as the sexy female image that turns you on.
    (This is not aimed at everyone of course, I know many of you dress accordingly).
    Careful with that as we have no idea as to what portion of the population here are represented by what you said. What you could be seeing is just a small, but vocal, subset.

    DeeAnn
    Last edited by flatlander_48; 04-12-2015 at 09:36 AM.

  20. #45
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    Teresa. Intersting post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandra View Post
    See what I mean.... comments like this is what drove the FtMS away from here.
    Really? You think someone would take my comment badly? I completely didn't intend to be dismissive of the angst FtMs go through... it was purely based on personal observation based on the FtMs I know.

    I honestly meant no offense. I do know a few FtMs and am completely sensitive to what they're going through, their equal desire for correct pronouns, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheryl reeves View Post
    i would like to know how ftm's have it easier the mtf's?
    I didn't say they have it easier. I said they usually have a pretty easy time to go stealth which is entirely a different thing.
    Last edited by Nigella; 04-12-2015 at 10:56 AM. Reason: Have a look at the FAQs, they explain how to multiquote, please do not multipost, there really is no need for it

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    I can see how telling FtM people that their struggle is easier can be offensive. Especially, as I see this place as one of support. I had a guy deliver me pizza the other day and I'm 99% sure he was FtM. He looked really good, there was just something in the face that hinted female and the mannerisms were a bit off. All I could think about while I was signing the slip, was damn you've got some balls. As in brave as hell. You're doing what I can't do. This made me smile at him and I made eye contact passing the slip back and getting my pizza from him and it seemed like there was a look of relief on his face and he gave a big smile in return. Maybe he thought I was flirting, maybe I'm projecting a bit, but even so, to make that much of a change in your appearance, and yes its ok for women to wear men's clothing typically these days, but how ok is it for women to want to be men? They most likely get told no from men, and they probably also get told no from other women who think men are the enemy, they have to worry about what their friends and family are going to think and who's going to be supportive and who isn't.

    I've always disliked the viewpoint of "your struggle is less than mine so what do you have to complain about?" It trivializes what they go through. If that's the reason they no longer come here, I don't blame them. It sucks. It sucks for us and it sucks for them, and I hope they can find other places that are just as supportive of them as this place has been for me.

  23. #48
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    This is where the problem lies, this is full of insults and you probably don't even realise it.
    First off, let's insult the GGs, so short hair and jeans and trainers means you have no femininity?
    Why do so many people think femininity is directly linked to a hemline?

    Secondly the FTM, what if they want to be seen as a man, use male toilets and not just be considered an unfeminine woman?
    For them it's really hard to be treated like a man and they can't even get respect here.
    MtF crossdressers call themselves girls, honey etc etc despite identifying as male and just being in it for the clothes. But you can't extend the same courtesy to FtM TS that do identity as men.
    Question 1. I didn't say short hair, jeans, running shoes = no femininity. There are millions and billions of GG's that are absolutely gorgeous with short hair, jeans and runners.
    I'm talking about the CDing FTM folks.
    I am saying that if a FTM CD woman wants to dress a "bit" on the manly side or butchy side and go out in public then so what? Nobody bats an eye. Why come to this site when there is no problem? However take a guy give him some longer hair, a pair of womens Lulu Lemmon pants and casual womens yoga top and jacket but without all the makeup etc and you'll see all the different looks, stares, whispering comments.
    Heck I saw another thread on here today that said something about men getting caught wearing panties in the ER room or along those lines..... Yeah if a guy is seen wearing a pair of panties in a situation like that everyone attending might go hmmm? And have a snicker or 2. Take a FTM CDer that's underdressing in male underwear in the same situation and nobody attending would look twice.

    Question 2. I don't think femininity is linked to the hemline.

    Lastly, I did comment about if the FTM is TS or more on the Trans side of things. I said the playing field is for sure level at that point when your talking about trying to get facial hair, hormones, facial surgery etc. So I am saying its just as hard at that point. Maybe even harder for FTM if they are going all the way with genital reassignment surgery etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Most likely only FtM TS would visit here and they should be treated as men, no question.
    FtM crossdressers are usually called tomboys and have no real need to come here.
    Before anyone says how easy it is for them, it wasn't.
    Women have and still are treated secondary, like sexual objects or a possession.
    They chained themselves to railings and fought hard for their rights, how do you think the first women that dared to wear men's trousers were treated?

    Women have done their bit to freely crossdress should they wish.
    Question is, instead of bitching how easy they have it, what are you doing to stand up for MtF crossdressers rights?
    So many people safely in their closets moaning about what women can wear, what's stopping you? Cause it's the same thing that stopped them and they still did it.

    Also on a side note their is probably much less actual FtM crossdressers that get a kick out of the clothes, simply because how strong testosterone can be in the sexualised aspect so very common in MtF crossdressers. Before there is a tirade of "It's not sexual", just look how many are into the sexualized image of a woman, high heels, stockings, red nails, short skirts, tight clothes etc etc.
    This is not wanting to dress like a woman, this is like dressing as the sexy female image that turns you on.
    (This is not aimed at everyone of course, I know many of you dress accordingly).
    Well I will say you are absolutely right that women have fought dam hard for their rights and should be commended for it for sure. I don't want to take anything away from them by anything I have said at all because the playing field is still not level for women and we have more progress world wide to make. However if a nation with a big majority of men stands up and says we want to wear dresses then it wouldn't be an issue for very long would it? Most men don't see this as a problem in their lives and cringe about the thought of wearing a dress etc. There's not many of us out there.

    I really like your question about what are we doing to make progress with our rights instead of bitching!!!! Love it!!!
    I can only speak for myself and say I support my Pride center and anything LGBT related anyway I can. I try and give money when I can and will sign any gov't legislation for the better but I am also not the poster boy to go on the front page of a LGBT or Trans magazine. I'm not there but wished I could be.
    I'm out in public as much as I can be, unfortunately not enough for my liking because I hate the closet.

  24. #49
    ADMINISTRATOR Sandra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianne S View Post
    Really? You think someone would take my comment badly? I completely didn't intend to be dismissive of the angst FtMs go through... it was purely based on personal observation based on the FtMs I know.

    I honestly meant no offense. I do know a few FtMs and am completely sensitive to what they're going through, their equal desire for correct pronouns, etc.
    Dianne yes some of the FtMs did take offence to comments like that and what also annoyed them was the fact that those that made the comments couldn't understand why they got annoyed. I wasn't having a go at you personally when I quoted your post.
    Sandra
    Administrator

    I always used to rib you about your legs can't anymore. R.I.P Sexy Legs

    R.I.P Rianna

  25. #50
    Transman Andy66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    Well for one thing, right now there are more restrictions on men's wear than woman's; there are plenty of crossdressing women, but you simply don't notice them.
    Yes, thats pretty much what I was going to say.
    Last edited by Andy66; 04-12-2015 at 01:24 PM.

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