Discuss

[Nigella]

Women have done their bit to freely crossdress should they wish.
Question is, instead of bitching how easy they have it, what are you doing to stand up for MtF crossdressers rights?
So many people safely in their closets moaning about what women can wear, what's stopping you? Cause it's the same thing that stopped them and they still did it.

Rather than take the thread this quote came from off topic, I have repeated it here to start a separate discussion on this particular topic.

It has been a recent phenomenon for the Transgender Community ( the whole spectrum, not just Transsexuals) to be aligned with the Lesbian, Gay & Bisexual community. The TG community have used this as a spring board to bring themselves into the public eye.

Why do you think this is? The LGB community is about sexuality, whereas, at least for the Transsexual part of the Transgender community it is about gender. Is the rest of the Transgender community saying that being part of this community is not about the clothes, but about their sexuality, because, IMHO that is what Joe Public would most likely assume after aligning with the LGB community.

Secondly, this question is not aimed at starting an in or out argument, but have a go at answering Becky's Questions:

what are you doing to stand up for MtF crossdressers rights?

what's stopping you?

Over to you ...

[Jenniferathome]

...with respect to the two Becky questions ...

I go out when I like. I change opinion one interaction at a time. There will be no marching on Selma to create a change. One positive interaction at a time is all it takes.

[CountessVF]

I think we have to remember that when women were blurring lines or gender appropriate clothing it was also a civil rights question, denied the right to vote and so forth. The feminist movement was about creating equals and their defiance of dress code a loosely defined uniform. We as men usually still are at least equals and are denied very little. We aren't fighting a fight for our gender, we are if anything fighting for an individuals right to choose their gender or ability to dress how and when they choose. Just my two cents.

[pamela7]

1. being myself, out there, "man in a dress", as if its just normal, also changing opinions one at a time.
2. consideration for the fears of my SO.

[Nadya]

I've been struggling with the term transgender incorporating transexuals to crossdressers where crossdressers should be considered a completely separate category. On one side, I don't think it's good to trivialize what crossdressers go through but on the other I don't want public perception to think that we are just a weird hobby or something. I think we are grouped together because we are fighting the same type of discrimination and lack of acceptance as transexuals and why wouldn't all of us in the community be fighting for not only our acceptance but acceptance for everyone? Sometimes I wonder that with all of the subcategories we have that we are weakening our movement. People that want to know more about transgender people might be put off on how much there is out there. I want to me more involved with making crossdressing a more normal thing. I'm hoping to become more involved with my Tri-Ess group as more than an outlet for dressing up and going out.

[Tracii G]

I'm a mix of both genders as far as I dress everyday and frequently go out enfemme so I do get lots of questions.
Always answer their questions with a smile and don't push an agenda.I think responding in a friendly manner helps further the cause and that we are not freaks.
I am glad the LGBT has us under their umbrella so to speak because in my area they have been a huge help to the trans community and yes CD's as well.
I hope I change one mind at a time.At least that is my goal.

[Danitgirl1]

Whilst clearly not the same thong, gender and sexuality are undoubtedly linked, at the very least in the general public consciousness. This is why 'are you gay' is such a big issue for the MtF crossdresser, transexual person etc. This is voiced by themselves AND those they tell. It is very hard to separate gender and sexuality and they may even be in some way linked, for all we know.
On top of that the LGB community share many challenges faced by the trans* community (prejudice, lack of access to social services, lack of access to basic rights enjoyed by others etc) so it is natural that we should align with these communities. But it sometimes seems to me that some of us in the trans* community are so keen to separate ourselves from the rest of the community (I am NOT gay; those crossdressers, pah, they aren't REALLY trans, unlike ME; how dare you think I am homo, that is disgusting; you have a fetish, eeew; etc) that we will almost certainly drive a wedge between ourselves and our natural allies and additionally, we will divide our small community further, thus enabling more prejudice and marginalisation...
Just my 2 cents.
<climbs off soap box>

[CynthiaD]

At the moment I'm sitting in a Hops Restaurant in Alexandria, VA drinking iced tea and wearing a white dress with black polka dots. Everyone is calling me "ma'am." Do I pass? I neither know nor care.

We don't need activism. We don't need protest marches.

We need to be out where we can be seen. We need to interact with the public. We need to be ordinary.

That's my answer to the second question. As for the first question, this mystifies me. I have nothing against the gay community, but I have no kinship with it either.

[CountessVF]

We need to be out where we can be seen. We need to interact with the public. We need to be ordinary.

I wonder if it became ordinary if it'd have the same allure. Maybe it's just me, but it being risqué and unusual is part of why I like it.

[AllieSF]

Personally, I do not care why we are connected to the LGB crowd, though members of those initials also have a few, or many, of us "T's" in their midst. I am all in favor of this fortunate inclusion as it provides some necessary mass to our numbers when trying to get our equal rights noticed, accepted and legislated as may be the case. If people associate us with the sexual orientation side of LGB, so be it. Why is it considered a negative by many of our members here? When asked, we should tell the truth with personal pride, and not shame, that we are or are not a member of the core groups. It is always funny how someone mistakenly identified will laugh off the mistake and offer a nice correction when someone asks are you a lawyer, carpenter, singer, whatever, except when asked if they are gay. Why should the mistaken assumption about being gay, or lesbian or Bi, be any different? Is it shameful to you to be labeled such? If, yes, then why? Are many of us also closet homophobes too?? We definitely shouldn't be.

As to Becky's questions:

I, like Jennifer, interact pro-actively with the general public every time I am out. So, just being out there, I am introducing others to me and people like me all the time, and enjoying every minute of it too! I also vote when possible for legislation to establish and protect our civil rights. When the occasions permit, I will also give my true and strong opinions and arguments for those rights when in discussions with others.

Nothing is stopping me from being who and what I am.

[sometimes_miss]

what are you doing to stand up for MtF crossdressers rights? what's stopping you?

I defend individuals behavior when I see someone making fun of them on a case by case basis, and use general acceptance principles while doing so. I don't go overboard, because I have no desire to be outed, myself. Tolerance and acceptance for everyone is simply how our society members should behave for everyone, not just MTF crossdressers.

A perfect example is lavatory use. We do not need sex specific bathrooms. There simply is not logic for it; the reason we still have them is because in the past, we were not civilized enough to behave correctly towards each other to allow it. But that is changing, gradually. I don't think we'll see universal restrooms in my lifetime, but I do see it gradually becoming the norm eventually; a strong support for this idea will be women's desire to expand the availability of more 'stalls' for them to use, so as to decrease the waiting time for themselves to use the facilities, vs the waiting time that men experience. Right now, men's rooms and women's rooms usually have the same floor space, which does not reflect the number of needed toilet fixtures needed for each, especially regarding how much time is needed for use of same.

[Eryn]

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." [Eleanor Roosevelt]

The tricky bit is to get out of the ingrained habit of automatically giving your consent. It's taken me four years of going out regularly and I'm not completely there yet.

This morning I went out to breakfast at Panera Bread with my shoulder-length hair down, denim Capris, T-shirt with dragonfly print, mini-messenger-bag purse, large heart-shaped studs, and nails painted blue with sparkly silver accent nail on my ring fingers. I wasn't wearing forms or using my feminine voice.

Nobody gave me a second glance. I was either taken for a tall flat-chested woman or for an effeminate man. Neither characterization bothers me. I felt quite comfortable in my own skin.

Now, go back two years and if I had gone out that way I would have been petrified, hiding in the back booth with my fingers curled so nobody could see them. I feel as though, through experience, I've grown quite a bit in that time. I'm not terribly worried about random strangers being aware of my Y-chromosome so having to present ID isn't the terrifying situation it once was.

There are boundaries to my freedom. Work still puts limits on what I can do. I have a job where I see a lot of people and these people occasionally recognize me in the community. I try to keep my work appearance considerably different to minimize the chances of recognition in female mode. Mimi terms it "You crossdress as a man to go to work."

I don't wear skirts close to home except to my therapist who has encouraged me to do so. I'm out to my doctors, though it is still a bit daunting to see "Transgendered" on my list of conditions. Slowly I am working my way through these boundaries and eventually I'll be able to lead the life I want even close to home.

[Rachelakld]

Like Jennifer, out interacting with public, changing one persons perception at a time.
Also have a blog filled with positive experiences, that many people in my region have read.

[Chrissi]

Rather than take the thread this quote came from off topic, I have repeated it here to start a separate discussion on this particular topic.

It has been a recent phenomenon for the Transgender Community ( the whole spectrum, not just Transsexuals) to be aligned with the Lesbian, Gay & Bisexual community. The TG community have used this as a spring board to bring themselves into the public eye.

Why do you think this is? The LGB community is about sexuality, whereas, at least for the Transsexual part of the Transgender community it is about gender. Is the rest of the Transgender community saying that being part of this community is not about the clothes, but about their sexuality, because, IMHO that is what Joe Public would most likely assume after aligning with the LGB community.

Secondly, this question is not aimed at starting an in or out argument, but have a go at answering Becky's Questions:

Over to you ...

Hi Nigella, for me at least being a gay and living somewhere in-between female and male, I think you are looking at this from the wrong end of the telescope. Yes, the LGB community is about sexuality, but so is the TQIA+ community. The gender aspect crops up whether you are Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Queer, Intersex, Asexual, or Straight. Regardless the sexuality aspect or the gender aspect all come together as we are collectively a marginalized community. So looking at it from the other side, it's not the gender/sexuality aspect, but the fact that we are looking for equality.

I for one am a person and I expect to be treated as any other person with full and equal rights and protections as any other person. I find it offensive and wrong when someone chooses to be bigoted or chooses to deny me equal footing (often under the protection of law) simply because I am gay or transgender, something I was born with and had no choise or say in the matter.

I am a good person, I have a stable job, am in a great relationship, and while legally I can marry in my state, that marriage would not be recognized in many other states. I own my own home, I pay taxes, but up until recently, I could not declare "married, filing jointly" on our tax return. Should I have chosen to transition, or otherwise was required to have emergency hospitalization, my partner would not have been allowed to visit me in the ICU, or likewise me, him. In many states still, even with marriage equality...should I have chosen to get married over the weekend, I could be legally fired from my job for the horendous act of being gay on Monday. If you are TG, then multiply those issues and problems 10 fold, because there are less than a handful of states that currently protect gender expression from LEGAL discrimination.

I get very worked up about this. Sorry if I am coming off as a b i t c h with a capital B...I don't mean to. I truly am glad you posted this as it does need to be DISCUSSED.

As a side note, it saddens me when some of our own members here start off a post with "I am not gay..." or "I am 100% straight..." as being gay or not straight is somehow inherently wrong. Sure it is okay in the context of explaining a spousal situation or to emphasize a certain relevant point perhaps, although I am at a loss to come up with a cogent example...
I am thick skinned and many gays my age are used to it, but there are young members here who are not and are questioning or curious, or trying to figure things out, and those comments are truly not welcome, appropriate, accepting or constructive in any way.

So to me, it is not the percieved differences of sexuality or gender expression, but the sence of community that we are all fighting for equal protection from those who would deny us, just because we are L, G, B, T, Q, I, A

Chrissy

[AllieSF]

Great post Chrissy from your side of the street with your special view point from there. Thanks.

[Jenniferathome]

Rebecca, I have never seen a woman cross dressed but maybe I don't get out much. I have seen women wearing women's pants, shirts (cut for a woman's shape), and jackets (again, cut for a woman's shape). I've even seem women wearing wingtips but of course, they were women's shoes.

Now, do you think that woman wearing a man's business suit out and about would NOT draw attention? Double takes? It would. I have no doubt some women are cross dressers but they are a very small minority as evidenced here.

[CountessVF]

... It saddens me when some of our own members here start off a post with "I am not gay..." or "I am 100% straight..." as being gay or not straight is somehow inherently wrong.

It might not be a chastisement of those that are gay, rather a clarification of their own sexuality. And I think we all should have the right to express such thoughts. Gay, straight, bi and everything else.

[pamela7]

I for one am a person and I expect to be treated as any other person with full and equal rights and protections as any other person. I find it offensive and wrong when someone chooses to be bigoted or chooses to deny me equal footing (often under the protection of law) simply because I am gay or transgender, something I was born with and had no choise or say in the matter.

If we are to combine on the basis of minorities, then perhaps we look at: dyslexics, autists, addicts, immigrants, ex-cons, disabled, and every other disadvantaged group, and work out, perhaps we ARE the majority, and collectively can do something together?

[Tracii G]

Chrissy very well stated I agree.
Gender, sexual preference should never even be a factor for equal treatment under the law.

[Rachael Leigh]

Dressing as I please wither that be fully en fem or just a mix of boy and girl.

[Chrissi]

It might not be a chastisement of those that are gay, rather a clarification of their own sexuality. And I think we all should have the right to express such thoughts. Gay, straight, bi and everything else.

Countess, I wholeheartedly agree, thus my followup sentence to that, however, often that pretext is given to as a way of verbally turning a nose up. It hurts, trust me. Especially when there is no relevant reason to give the statement, other than, "...hey I'm a crossdresser...but at least I'm not gay too.." Because that is what we gays hear when that is said. It may be subtle, but language is oh so powerful when words are used to convey a meaning beyond what is explicitly stated.

Chrissy








(see my simple fact of leaving off a "Hugs, Chrissy" conveys that I am upset.)

so in that regard...and because I am not upset...I was just demonstrating the power of language and words.

Hugs,
Chrissy

[CountessVF]

Chrissy, I'm afraid that you're caught in cross fire that's not directed at you. So many of us have SO's that immediately believe that the revelation of crossdressing automatically means our orientation has or will change. So there's probably a lot of rationalizations and self reassuring statements being made. Theoretically your boyfriend could have wondered if you're a crossdresser and gay would you become a lesbian. There's a lot of assumptions we make about each other in general based on the context in which we become acquainted, and change to that shakes the boat.

[justmetoo]

In reference to the OP, what do I do? I go out dressed from time to time, to regular places, shopping, dining, sightseeing, and sometimes interact with people. Mostly salesclerks and the like, but also the general public (sometimes just a nice smile, sometimes a brief exchange with someone asking me directions, for example).
The only thing that stopped me before was my own fear. I'm better now.

[Leslie Langford]

My sense is that at one point in the not-too-distant past, the "T" sub-group got lumped in with the "LGB" community as it became more widely recognized by the general public that we were more than a just bunch of pervy, fetishistic "tranvestites" as best exemplified in popular mythology by the Dr. Frank-N-Furter character of "Rocky Horror Picture" show fame, and that we needed better representation for our cause. Our numbers were small in comparison with the larger gay/lesbian/bi community, and they seemed like logical allies in the fight against mainstream prejudice, even if the commonality between the two groups was a bit of a stretch. Kind of like the concept of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", as best exemplified by the Western democracies in WWII holding their noses while allying themselves with the Communist Soviet Union against a common threat - Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan - in order to defeat them. Funny how that came back to bite them as well, but I digress...

I would suggest that the time is now ripe to take off the training wheels and lobby for increased acceptance based on our own merits. In the last few years, our presence has been more strongly felt than ever before with so much media attention now being focused on the trans community, not to mention the passing of laws in so many jurisdictions forbidding discrimination based on gender identity as well as sexual orientation. The "haters" in Arkansas, Florida, and Indiana with their thinly-veiled discriminatory laws being tabled on the pretext of enhancing religious freedom provisions are also encountering a major push-back from many quarters - and not only by the parties directly affected by these.

Some had even dubbed 2014 the "Year of the Transgender" for all the above reasons, not to mention the increasing visibility of articulate trans spokespersons like Janet Mock, Laverne Cox, Lana Wachowski, and Bruce Jenner, as well as the sympathetic portrayals of our kind in shows and movies such as Transparent, Orange is the New Black, and The Dallas Buyer's Club. We are starting to become a force to be reckoned with on our own terms, so it seems logical that we start to go our own way to keep the main focus on our specific issues and thereby hasten their resolution.

If nothing else, the time has come to put the final nail into the coffin of that mistaken - albeit widely accepted - belief that ALL crossdressers are simply drag queens at heart...

[Suzanne F]

I am a member of 2 of the groups. Although monogamous with my wife I acknowledge that I am bi sexual. Of course I am out as trans now also. I agree with Allie. I welcome the inclusion and am grateful for the broad support of the lesbian and gay community. I too am out in the public every day as Suzanne, a trans woman. I interact with a wide variety of people and I hope my experience is benefiting our cause.

I do think there is a need for marching and taking a public stance for our rights. Last year was the first time I marched in the trans march during Pride in San Francisco. I was so proud as I marched up Market Street with my daughter. Two years ago I was in the closet to everyone, almost even myself. I plan on being there every year if at all possible. Thank God people like Laverne Cox have done such a great job as ambassadors for us.

Suzanne