Discuss

[Dianne S]

We don't need activism. We don't need protest marches.

Oh, wow, do I ever disagree with that!

Let me preface this by saying: I completely get that many transgender people are not out and that they face enormous risks if they become activist, join a protest, or even speak out against discrimination. I would not for one minute judge anyone who held his or her tongue for fear of personal safety, employment, etc.

But... this is why we need activism. Those of us who are more out need to speak loudly and forcefully against hateful washroom laws that put our lives in jeopardy. We need to highlight the evils of a society that produces Leelah Alcorns or Taylor Alesanas. We cannot stay quiet in the face of such tragic loss of life and potential.

I write online in support of trans rights and I will be going to LGBT rights events now that I'm out. We should not be happy until our society honors every person trying to live an authentic life and does not stigmatize those whose authenticity differs somewhat from the norm.

When no-one feels compelled to be closeted, then and only then do we not need activism or protest marches.

[Nadine Spirit]

I go out whenever and wherever and I do not deny the obvious, that I am a man dressed as a woman. I will converse freely with folks, as many others, changing one opinion at a time.

I run a blog, discussing fashion, and my completely normal TG life.

I am primarily gender non-conforming and willingly do things like go to work with my nails painted and present as a man. And have informed my work of my TG status.

I have also come out to most of my friends and family as TG and have taken the tim to explain what that means and answer any of their questions.

[SharonDenise]

I know this is a cross dresser forum which I'm now a proud member of, but Public television just had an interesting show that featured what it might have been like to have been gay in England in the 50's. The program "Call the Midwife", featured a man who was caught doing a homosexual act in England. He pleaded guilty and could have been sentence for up to two years for this one act. The judge reduced his sentence to probation and told him he must take female hormones. I know this is fiction but its probably based on the reality of the time. " The times, they are a changing..."

[Michelle (Oz)]

I have always been tolerant but one thing that crossdressing has done for me is to respect difference in others. Respecting difference includes those who are GLB but difference also takes the form of tatoos, rainbow coloured hair or unusual choice of clothes (moi?).

As a CDer though I don't personally see a connection with the GLB community other than indirectly via a number of my friends.

My effort on behalf of our community is one enjoyable interaction at a time.

[Chrissi]

Oh, wow, do I ever disagree with that!

Let me preface this by saying: I completely get that many transgender people are not out and that they face enormous risks if they become activist, join a protest, or even speak out against discrimination. I would not for one minute judge anyone who held his or her tongue for fear of personal safety, employment, etc.

But... this is why we need activism. Those of us who are more out need to speak loudly and forcefully against hateful washroom laws that put our lives in jeopardy. We need to highlight the evils of a society that produces Leelah Alcorns or Taylor Alesanas. We cannot stay quiet in the face of such tragic loss of life and potential.

I write online in support of trans rights and I will be going to LGBT rights events now that I'm out. We should not be happy until our society honors every person trying to live an authentic life and does not stigmatize those whose authenticity differs somewhat from the norm.

When no-one feels compelled to be closeted, then and only then do we not need activism or protest marches.

Oh, wow, do I ever agree with that!

Amen Dianne!

[justmetoo]

SharonDenise, that is definitely based on the reality of the times. Look into the life and fate and death of Alan Turing.

I agree with Dianne, too! That last line should hit home to many of us.

[Teresa]

Nigella,
I know my gender and I know my sexuality, an early episode in my childhood affirmed my ability to function fully as a male .
Then comes the twist, it came with a female overtone and the strange need to dress as a woman and a desire to share it with them !

To stand up then and be counted was totally out of the question, most people of my age lived in a very unforgiving circumstances ! To come out and say you CD or might be gay or even wanted to change gender was almost out of the question ! It took me thirty years to come out to my wife and another twenty to totally accept myself, mainly through the forum !

As for what's stopping you ? It's very easy to be caught up in the euphoria of others, pushing your CDing wanting to be more open and possibly totally out !
I may be like many here, is being out what I want ? Is it it living the truth or really living a lie ?

[ReineD]

I think the T got lumped into the LGB during times when people conflated gender and sexual preference. It was assumed that men who dressed like women, did so to attract other men. Everyone who was not cis-hetero was lumped into the same boat, which created an "us-normal-people" vs a "them-different-people" classification, even though the mere acknowledgment that there was a LGBT community was a positive first step. And there are also members of the LGBQ community who reject the social masculine or feminine roles imposed on them so we cannot say that gender incongruity belongs solely to the Ts. There are LGBQIs and crossdressers who simply don't fit into the either-fully-male-or-female box.

The medical profession and certainly people in our community know better now that gender identity is not tied to sexual preference, but it will take time for the masses to understand all the levels and intricacies of our community. If there were more than 5%-7% (give or take) of out-and-proud Ls, Gs, Bs, Qs, Ts, and everyone in-between, I think it would make it easier for the general populace to become more aware. But as it is, the most visible group (Ls, Gs) live and play very much within their own communities and so most cis-heteros don't know or know very few same-sex attracted people, let alone people who experience gender incongruence. So unfortunately old attitudes still prevail.

What do my SO and I do? We exercise our right to be visible and interact with people.

.. and we cannot compare the women who decided to wear pants en masse for reasons of social, legal and employment equality, to male-bodied individuals who present in a feminine manner either because they have GD, or because they get a thrill out of it. I mention the latter group because when people google "crossdressers", they are served millions of websites that cater to the sexual or fetish aspect and as long as this element is out there, people will continue to see the CDing more as a kink. I believe this makes it difficult to take crossdressers seriously.

[PaulaQ]

Both the LGB and T people have a common problem - all the cisgender, hetronormative, and intolerant people who hate all of us, and who don't distinguish between us. We also intersect in that the G &T communities suffer from higher rates of HIV infection, and straight trans women and straight trans men appeared to be gender bending gays and lesbians. A lot of us got started within the L&G communities, and post transition many of us are gay or lesbian identified.

As a practical matter, without the larger LGB community, the TG community is probably too small to go it alone.

When I advocate for trans rights, which I do quite a bit of, I'm always careful to include discussion of gender expression, CDs, and their rights needs.

65% of the US population reports having a close friend or family member who's gaynornlesbian. Unfortunately, only 7% of the US knows an openly trans person. Therein lies our problem.

.. and we cannot compare the women who decided to wear pants en masse for reasons of social, legal and employment equality, to male-bodied individuals who present in a feminine manner either because they have GD, or because they get a thrill out of it.

There are plenty of females assigned at birth who CD for analogous reasons to the good folks here. It's just that during the 70's, they convinced the rest of western women that a more masculine presentation was a key to equality. So nowadays, a woman is free to wear masculine clothing - but nobody will notice.

[Marcelle]

Hi Nigella,

For me it is about going out and being seen doing everyday things. I also believe what while some are more inclined to be TG Shock Troops and lead the charge up the hill by lobbying, protesting and marching (all good things) those who just go out and educate by being seen and interacting help the cause just as much. I am trying to change my own little corner of the world by working to rewrite the Canadian military's TG policy to be more inclusive of the whole spectrum and I have begun the process of asking for accommodation at work to present "en femme" on days when civilian clothing is allowed (Fridays).

As for being part of the LGBT community, I welcome it as it gives us a bit of leg up when it comes to legislative issues to have a greater group behind us. However, I do see a day as Leslie said "where the training wheels will come off" and we will begin to take ownership of our own cause as more and more of us go mainstream. Will we remain part of the overall community? I think so, just more vocal.

Hugs

Isha

[kimdl93]

I hope that my daily interactions with people helps change some minds or at least possibly unsettle some minds. I haven't participated in any events, but I have come out to neighbors and business associates.

I do not have a problem being associated with the rest of the LGBT community. Yes, the first three are about gender orientation. Still, there is strength in numbers, and we, by ourselves are a rather small minority, while when combined with these others we may represent 10% of the population.

[Nigella]

To answer my own OP

I feel that we should not be aligned to the LGB community, that ship has passed and is now, in the majority of cases sailing calm seas, of course there will be the occasional storm. Of course I am speaking from the Transsexual side of the Transgender spectrum, so for me it has never been about sexuality as is the case of the LGB community. Whilst there may be some sympathy from the LGB community to the TG "plight" it is only as far as being marginalised, there is no empathy to being trans. Indeed, I have had LGB people say they do not understand me, just as cis people have.

As for what I'm doing to promote the TG community, TBH, not as much as some. I have been a representative (trade union), been there, done that and even got the stab proof vest. Quite often members would not support you when it came down to it, and I will not go through that again.

Having said that, as a Transwoman I am out and about among Joe public, living a normal everyday life. I will not hide my trans status, too much to change to hide the old features etc, but do not flaunt it. I have always said , If you want to know ask, I will give a honest response with the exception of discussing anything too personal.

[Dianne S]

To answer my own OP

I feel that we should not be aligned to the LGB community

In my ideal world, we'll add another letter to LGBT, that letter being S, for "straight".

Every human will be a member of the LGBTS community and we'll see we have far more in common from our shared humanity than we have differences because of sexual orientation or gender identity.

[AllieSF]

Nigella, here in the States where the individual States can set their own laws and regulations for many areas of their population's lives, I believe that it is important that the "T" stays attached to the "LGB" for much longer. If we could get enough "T" civil rights cases in front of the Supreme Court here then we may get a ruling that would in effect apply to all States and negate their ability to enact something different. Since most of us are in the closet one way or another, we just do not have enough critical mass taking up the cause for our equal rights and protections.

[Dana44]

I go out when I want to. My SO and I are fairly comfortable on doing a night out and going to a movie and dinner. I have been getting better with my makeup and pass pretty well. Nobody has stopped us or given us any problems. I do not know of any LGBT groups around here and I'm quite sure that this is an area that you do not want to be labeled a Fag or lesbian. Still I think that we do not have the ability to show that we are indeed heterosexual. It is better to be two girls out having fun, that is our business. Now if anybody would ask I would tell them. Hopefully one at a time that it is okay to express yourself.

[flatlander_48]

D44:

Unless you are in the UK and talking about cigarettes, Fag is a pejorative term.

Anyway, to respond to the original question, I do believe that all of us under the overarching concept of Transgender (from crossdressers to transsexuals) should continue to align ourselves with lesbians, gays and bisexuals. Yes, LGB is largely about sexuality, but gender may also come into play. In gay relationships, the gender roles are not really defined as they usually are in opposite sex relationships. People may choose to select some or all of the aspects of a particular gender role. Without specifics, people tend to gravitate towards what they are comfortable with and what makes sense. When there are no set expectations, you get to make it up as you go. So yes, there can be a gender-related component aspect to gay long-term relationships.

The alignment of transgender people with LGB people has a lot to do with sheer numbers. The transgender community, by itself, is a splinter of a splinter. Plus, transgender people, at the moment, don't have a tremendous amount of infrastructure by ourselves. There are major LGB(T) organizations that currently exist that the transgender community just cannot match, or at least it would take some time. Organizations such as the HRC, the NGLCC, the IHRC, PFLAG, etc. There is strength in numbers and we would be hardpressed to emulate that strength. It would take EVERY person within a whiff of being transgender to come out, and that's not going to happen.

Further, as of last December, I am 66. I don't have time for "one at a time" and neither do any of my comtemporaries. Again, this is also a case of sheer numbers and it just doesn't work. It would deeply sadden me if in 20 years, those of us currently in their 20's and 30's, were having these SAME conversations. Sorry, "one at a time" just won't cut it.

For the last part, I have copied what I wrote in the previous thread:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have begun to go out dressed more frequently in recent times. Things have been headed in that direction for some time and now it is beginning to happen. The umbrella of transgender seems to fit quite nicely.

And, as of last October I have been an active member of our LBGT employee affinity group for 11 years. Overall, I've been active in other affinity groups for 20 years and a former president of one for 3 years. Fairness and equality for ALL is very important to me as over my nearly 43 year career, I've had unfairness visited upon me and also have been in a position to do something about it.

I forgot to say that I identify as bisexual and transgender.

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

Nigella, here in the States where the individual States can set their own laws and regulations for many areas of their population's lives, I believe that it is important that the "T" stays attached to the "LGB" for much longer. ... Since most of us are in the closet one way or another, we just do not have enough critical mass taking up the cause for our equal rights and protections.

Allie makes a very good point.

Let me be very blunt about something here in the US. Being trans in the US is not an easily survivable fate. Indeed, 41% of us, on average, attempt to make that point by making attempts on our own lives. (That's the average - for most of us, the odds are much worse.) That's assuming we aren't murdered first.

It would not take much to make it nearly impossible to survive transition here - not much at all. Obviously 41% of us feel we're there right this minute.

I watched what happened when the gay and lesbian groups bailed on trans people here in the states during the 80's, largely because they were distracted by the AIDS crisis. Our progress, which had begun in the 50's through the 70's, ground to a halt. We became invisible again.

If this happens again for some reason, and the broader LGB groups abandon us, this time the folks who hate us are much more informed about our existence. If we have no allies, and it's left up to them, we may well find it very, very difficult to exist here in the US.

[SharonDenise]

Thank you, "JustMe Too" for cluing me into Alan Turing. A movie was just made about him so I should have known who you were talking about. The recent " Call The Midwife" episode may have been based on his experiences. I'm old and only shared my secret with my wife for forty plus years. I applaud those who promote our cause and maybe someday I can join their ranks.