Hi all
So change rooms have been in the news of late...
This has prompted some thoughts around change rooms and public toilets.
How should we as a community put our needs forward?
How should society respond?
What can we realistically expect of society?
I have no answers, only thoughts: https://daniellaargento.wordpress.co...e-trouble-now/
Let me know what you think
Daniella:
I haven't gone out en femme in public yet but I would like to some day. I think that if I was out in public and I needed to use a changing room, public toilet I would not be comfortable using the male one. At the same time, I can fully appreciate that GGs may not be happy and object to a CD using their facilities. Your linked articles are interesting, however, in both cases the rules seems to support the person using the facilities in accordance with the gender they identify with rather than the one at birth. This would work for TGs but I don't think it would for a CD. I'm a CD that identifies with the male gender, so I don't think it would meet my needs. My preference would be for uni-sex facilities. As you mention, this may be a feasible stipulation for new facilities but could be onerous without a grand-father clause for existing facilities.
I've been out dressed and used the ladies room without any issues. Anywhere from waiting on line at the Port Authority Bus Terminal, Olive Garden, Kmart etc in Pennsylvania and other states . I go in do my business, wash and go, no hanging out and I've had no problems so far. Of course if there is a private bathroom so much the better, but otherwise you do what you need to do.
It seems that if you're dressed as a woman, it would create more of an uproar using the men's room.
Honestly, it astonishes me how obsessed some people are with bathrooms etc. I don't believe I pass and yet in years of going out, I've yet to encounter any issues with using a bathroom or dressing room.
Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one.
Eleanor Roosevelt
I firmly believe you should use the toilet/washroom which matches your sex. If you are male you go in the male toilet. I see no excuse for a man to go in a female toilet as I find it quite a disturbing thought.
If you choose to go out en femme, then so be it - you are still male and therefore your choice is set by that. I am sure a lot of women would be horrified to know there was a man in their toilets/washroom irrespective of how he was dressed.
When out en femme, I go to the girls room. I have not had any problems, but I did have an embarrassing incident. I was in the girls room doing my makeup (before a GG clothing swap) and this girl comes in while I'm doing my makeup, and starts trying on tops, one after the other, each time exposing her bra. I still don't know if she didn't make me, or made me and didn't care. Anyhow, I pretended it was the most normal thing, finished my makeup and left.
But if you do use a girls room, do it like a girl, sitting down, feet away from the toilet.
Hi, I'm Steffi and I'm a crossdresser... And I accept and celebrate both sides of me. Or, maybe I'm gender fluid.
Many clothing stores now have gender neutral dressing rooms with private stalls so the dressing rooms are not designated for men or women. In many US states, you have the right to use the restroom corresponding with your gender identity if it is a public or implied public facility (shopping centers, lobbies, etc.). In almost 6 years, I have never encountered a problem. The general rule is to use the restroom or dressing room that corresponds to your presentation providing you are making a sincere effort at your gender presentation. If you are a very obvious "man in a dress" and making no attempt at a female presentation, use the men's restroom or dressing room. If you are androgynous or gender queer, use the ones where you feel the most comfortable or safe.
Where I live it is a very tiny vocal minority who complain about transgender individuals using the restroom, dressing room or locker room corresponding to their gender identity. They are losing the battle and the war. The current trends in California are for more unisex restrooms where all of the stalls are private or making all single stall restrooms not segregated by sex/gender. In many locations, this is a requirement for new or remodeled buildings especially in city, county and state buildings, and at state colleges and universities. At the college where I teach, all new buildings are required to have multiple gender neutral single use restrooms, and all existing single stall restrooms are having new signs installed. This was initiated by the LGBTQ faculty sub-committee of which I am a member. There are laws in California protecting your right to use the restroom or locker room corresponding with your gender identity. Changes for the better are happening, but some places are lagging behind.
For the past 10 years, the Sacramento Unified School District has had a policy of individuals can use the restroom corresponding to their gender identity as long as there is sincere and genuine effort. There have been zero, yes zero, reported complaints, issues or problems. Zero. Not a single boy has tried to use the transgender excuse to go into a girls restroom or locker room. All of the fear mongering about someone abusing the policy has been proven wrong.
I believe the images and comments in the following link highlight how wrong the policy of only using your birth gender restroom can be. http://www.newnownext.com/trans-peop...paign/03/2015/
Last edited by Melissa Rose; 03-13-2015 at 07:51 PM.
. . . Which of course doesn't tell us anything about how you handle this basic human need when out en femme. So please, do tell!Originally Posted by kimdl93
So, everyone else . . . Please realize that what you can do is entirely dependent on where you are. What works in San Francisco, or Washington, DC, OR Pennsylvania, can get you a beat down in other sections of the country. You've got to have situational awareness. The people who fear we will molest or otherwise cause trouble in a restroom have irrational fears that won't easily go away. The fact that no TG/TS/CD has ever actually done this is of no persuasion to people whose minds are already made up.
Rhonda
Last edited by Rhonda Darling; 03-13-2015 at 11:35 PM.
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Be all the woman that you can be!
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. . . and now, On With The Show!
If I am out wearing women's clothes but not presenting as a woman, I will use the men's room.
If I am out presenting as a woman, i will use the ladies.
In ten years of this practice, over four different states, Oregon, California, Arizona, Nevada, I have never ever had the slightest problem by anyone.
For dressing rooms, the same policy has applied. And I have frequently dressed both ways and both ways have taken the other genders clothes into the rooms with me. Some folks have questioned if the items are for me, to which I have simply replied, yes. And surprsingly no problems, ever.
Needs? This isn't even a question. You are out, you present as female....you should be able to use the women's room. If this is a problem with the society...build unisex restrooms and REQUIRE them in every PUBLIC venue. It is required under ADA for handicapped persons.
Society needs to grow up. All the BS perpetuated by myths needs to be erased and people need to know that what they THINK isn't what is real. Again it was done in 1967. The government said "this is how it needs to be...do it"How should society respond?
Now a dang thing. Especially when our own community won't step up and be heard because they can hide when the world gets tough...i.e.What can we realistically expect of society?So risking your life and well being just because you were TOLD that TGs were perverts or strange or not normal. Because you were TOLD that the ONLY reason TGs or any MtF person was there to sexually assault women...because you go into restrooms for anything but natures call? See when we can't even get people who are TG to see us as NOT abnormal or strange or perverts...how the heck can we expect someone without our perspective to see us as otherwise?
Grow up... get over it...lose the learned fears. Really?Youuse the facilities you are presenting as and you do what every other person does.
Sorry but you didn't say that either way you get beat down. If I were in a male restroom and in your example I would get beaten, abused, and possibly raped and killed. So what do I do? You say I could get beat if I use the women's? So where do I go? Explain? Please. You see this is what I am talking about. You see the problem but what is the solution? TGs in the areas you talk about have to "go" too and sometimes you can't wait? So what do you do?Please realize that what you can do is entirely dependent on where you are. What works in San Francisco, or Washington, DC, OR Pennsylvania, can get you a beat down in other sections of the country.
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
I admire your passion Lorileah, more power to you!
When it comes to society, there are no easy answers. It is a fine line between protecting one group without trespassing on the rights of others. For a subset of trans people like me who have issues passing (or are not trans but are gender variant in appearance), the best course is to encourage facilities to have a third restroom to assist families where one person needs to assist a child (or elderly SO) of the opposite gender. No need to argue the bathroom thing for all trans people, there is already a need for a third restroom for others segments of society; you can argue it makes good business sense, will save them some headaches and this way it can be done without using government force to compel them to do it.
Personally, I always use a single user one, if not available a female restroom (carefully) but absolutely never if there are young girls in there; I'd use the men's room instead, I, personally, wouldn't go there. A mama bear will attack someone she thinks might mess with her cubs, whether they are or not.
The big problem is the current few states that are trying to pass laws to force a person to use the restroom consistent with their gender as assigned at birth.
This means that there will be many transmen using the ladies room. Of course, telling a transman from a cisman can be quite difficult, and if these legislatures are worried about men dressing as women just to spy on or rape women in the ladies room, the new law will enable cismen, who do have bad intentions, to enter the ladies by declaring they were female born.
Imagine a young girl, say 9, goiing into the ladies room at the mall as her dad waits outside for her to finish, and some large bearded transman follows her in. I don't think the dad is going to passively watch this happen. I can envision an increase in assaults and law suits.
What are they going to do, post someone at the doors of all restrooms to check genitalia?
DonnaT
In general there is no backlash as long as you do your business and go. And I think that some perceptions are changing (IE the Planet Fitness incident where the complainer was asked to leave).
I find it humorous that a pervert would go through all the trouble to dress as a woman to hang out in a bathroom. However I guess that there are people who may think like that.
However, I would be more fearful of being dressed and going into a men's room, especially when there is alcohol involved.
Hi Dani,
When I go out if I am presenting female, I use the ladies restroom and to date I have had little issue. A few odd looks but nobody screaming blue murder. I am cognizant of the discomfort a woman could feel upon seen me in that space but I do my business and get out (okay, I may straighten my hair on a windy day). The unfortunate thing we are beginning to see is push back from Conservative/Religious fundamentalist in the legislating bodies drumming up "perverted boogey men" who will dress up as women and use this to ogle women or assault young girls (no such evidence supports this stance). However it is being used quite effectively here in Canada to block a Federal TG rights bill in which one bigoted Senator has added an amendment to the Bill designed to give us protected rights which in effect makes it illegal for us to use the bathroom of the gender we are presenting. This created a sort of "selfie" campaign of trans men and women taking photos of themselves in the bathroom of the birth gender even though they present the opposite. There are a few posts on the "media" portion of this forum dealing with this. One interesting one which speaks to the campaign is http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ntreal-Gazette
Klaire,
While you may be applying logic to the scenario you do not take into account the type of violence which may occur for a trans individual using their birth gender restroom. Say for example a 15 year old child in your family is a "trans girl" who has not had GRS (still male below the belt). She is out with her GG friends at the mall and before heading home they all decide to use the restroom. While her friends turn right into the ladies she turns left into the men's (using her birth gender restroom as you suggest). Luckily it is empty, she enters a stall, does her business and exits only to find three young men staring at what appears to be a 15 year old girl in the men's room. So they decide to take this opportunity to have their way with her (after all she is in the guy's room so she must be looking for it). However, once they discover she is trans they then decide to beat her mercilessly. So I have to argue your logic would only lead to a very serious consequences.
You may say this would not be the norm but I would argue that even once is not a good enough reason to force trans people into a situation where their lives could be at risk.
Hugs
Isha
I use the ladies room all the time without an issue. In fact I have a number of conversations with others while washing up or waiting for a stall. The same with the dressing room at the stores I buy my clothes.
If you act like you belong, no one will care as they are busy doing what they are there for
Richelle
I feel the same as Kim. When asked what restroom to use it's "when in Rome" for me. Drab = Mens Fab = Womens. Yes there are the horror stories of being outed in the women's room, but my feeling is that I would rather suffer the wrath of a woman and try to reason with her than be confronted by some Testosterone overloaded man who feels he has to defend men everywhere against the "sissy invasion".
I've had encounters with women in the restroom. One in particular was memorable. I was in the stall and heard the hand dryers all going and going and little girls giggling. This set the stage for what I thought might be "one of those moments". I lingered and the sounds continued. Finally exiting and washing my hands I saw 2 girls, about 8 or 9 yrs old, standing under the dryers with their long hair blowing everywhere while their mom stood by them watching and laughing. As I neared the dryers she said to them, "that's enough, let the lady use the dryer". We smiled at each other, I dried my hands and as I stepped away the girls returned to their playing under the dryers.
What could have been horrible (a mother and her daughters) turned wonderful in a second. You never know what will happen.
In another case I was in Macy's dressing room trying on a top. My wife was scouring the racks and I cautiously stepped out of the dressing area to see if she was nearby to get her opinion. As I did an older woman walked by and said, "just buy it darling, it looks wonderful on you". I smiled and did just that.
I don't wear women's clothes, I wear MY clothes !
I wouldn't push the issue, acceptance will be slow.
Society????? will object and procrastinate till the cows come hone.
I take it day by day and be discreet about it.
I must go th the "WASHROOM" now
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
When out enfemme, I use the ladies room. never had a problem. When shopping, I most always shop as a guy and mostly in women's clothing stores. I request a fitting room, go in, try on and make my purchases. About 15 years ago, I had an SA at Christopher & Banks make a stink when I asked for a fitting room. I smiled, handed her my items and walked out. When I looked back, she was being chewed out by the manager. Never had a problem since.
Jodi
This one doesn't even need a trans slant.
Communal urinals / change rooms really should be a thing of the past in modern western society for the safety and dignity of ALL individuals, not just those who have an unconventional gender expression. Once all of the facilities are individual then the question of whether they are gendered is moot.
I think that whilst I can understand women's fears regarding bathrooms they are completely unfounded. Think of this. If your 14 yr old child was gender questioning and felt and presented in a feminine manner, would you feel safer for them if they used a mens or womens restroom?
I think this is one of the top trans issues. In my home state of Texas it is illegal for a man to enter the ladies room without being invited (whatever that means). A few years ago a mtf trans woman was arrested for using the ladies room in (I believe) the Austin public library. She was a pre-op transsexual going through her life-test. She presented as a woman 24/7, and (as I recall) had obtained permission to use the ladies room while in the library.
If someone is harassing others, there are plenty of other laws to cover that. No one should be arrested just because they have to pee.
I don't try to present as a woman. I just like to wear whatever I want as long as it doesn't get me arrested for indecency. If I have to use a rest room I use the men's room or a single use restroom. No problem even though I have been told that I pass as a woman. Don't sweat it. You are generally safe in your own stall.
Rhanda
In the broadest sense, those who have a problem with LGBT rights are not above fear mongering. They will say anything, stretch any truth and outright fabricate in order to maintain the status quo. Logic and facts have no meaning for them...
DeeAnn
I don't know what the best answer is for the toilets. I've used the men's quite a bit and its come close to starting fights especially at the bars.
The last time out I used the women's because my very good friend that's transitioning said I should be using it and I really respect her and it was her event she invited me to. When I go out again in a couple weeks I will probably use the men's unless some women around me invite me in with them. I don't know what the heck to do, I still figure if I use the men's that they can make room for me. In saying that I want to do what's right for our cause and movement and this might not be the right thing to do......
Launa
L:
I would be more concerned about personal safety. Doing the right thing politically is cold comfort if you get beaten up. That is just not a good trade...
DeeAnn
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